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EU Referendum Discussion: Well That Worked Out Well Didn't It

Brexit, should we stay or should we go?


  • Total voters
    44
You are absolutely correct. We have no way of knowing for certain what will happen. But acting as if it will all be doom and gloom is extremely dishonest because we are in a much better position than remain campaigners would have us believe.

There is also great risk in staying in and allowing Brussels to continue controlling our country with no real accountability and the goal of creating an "ever closer union". Honestly that risk worries me more than the prospect of having to set our own trade deals.

Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of the EU. We studied it at length at uni from the treaty of Rome to the Maastricht treaty and it's a fucking shambles....

However weighing up the uncertainty (the migrant issue isnt even worth commenting on) I think staying in is the lesser of two evils.
 
If you don't think the Continentals would take a hit to punish us, you underestimate the animosity they feel towards the UK.
 
If you don't think the Continentals would take a hit to punish us, you underestimate the animosity they feel towards the UK.

They're bound to feel animosity Julie.....they don't call us "the difficult partner" for nothing....

They hate us as much as we hate the French and Germans (im speaking generally....I don't hate them personally) theyd be glad to see the back of us probably. We veto eveytbing they say and have a totally different mindset to what European Union actually means.
 
I would like to see the UK out of the EU because:

1.I have wagered a sum of money on the "Leave" horse.

2.I wish to see the cat amongst the pigeons.

3. An alf liter is too little, and a full litre is too much, innit bruv?
 
Yeah. There's actually no formal procedure defined in any of the relevant treaties for ejecting a country from the EU -- if there was, we probably wouldn't be having this referendum .....
 
I would like to see the UK out of the EU because:

1.I have wagered a sum of money on the "Leave" horse.

2.I wish to see the cat amongst the pigeons.

3. An alf liter is too little, and a full litre is too much, innit bruv?

Yeah but 5.68 of a litre is spot on init? :)
 
Who cares? The UK is the 5th largest economy in the whole world and we are one of the EU's biggest customers. Do you really think they'll cut off their nose to spite their face? Of course they will continue trading with us, it's in their best interests to do so...

Just like with greece, the eu has a massive interest in proving that brexit was a mistake to scare the rest of europe into not following - they've definitely got capacity for several noses to sacrifice to this end. And i don't think the special relationship means all that much - if it's a choice between the eu and the uk america would choose the bigger market (and the eu is their baby according to that telegraph article i posted)). This i guess could only last so long before they run out of noses (greece blinked first (well some of them) but we're bigger than greece).

I suspect that the brexit tories are hedging their bets for ttip - thinking that the eu might actually stop it, whereas outside of the eu we'd have very little leverage to stay out of it (and they're all for it). I fear we get ttip either way which will make the eu moot anyway (although maybe with extra fascism if we brexit now, if it ends up boosting the boris/gove/farrage types into power - this isn't a given though, it might go the other way)

I do worry that it's only too believeable that the global economy is so fragile that brexit would actually cause a worldwide recession (which is due anyway) - maybe this is already factored into someone's plan (you can make a killing out of recessions when you're an oligarch)

As for corbyn i think partly he's representing his party on this one (we really would see rebellions if he went brexit), but i do think his position is genuine in that he thinks a brexit at this moment would be the wrong choice; maybe he's thinking that the change in the air generally will break in europe anyway and result in some reform in the way Yanis Varoufakis is trying for.
 
The USA is able to trade with the EU without any special trade deals or free movement of people or anything else. I'm not the biggest fan of the USA but they are a global superpower and acting as if they are at the feet of the EU is simply a fiction. If the USA wanted to give us priority for trading there is nothing the EU could do. They have much less leverage than the USA. Especially when that EU lacks the UK. What would they have left? Germany would be the only economy worth shit left in that union and every other member state would have their own referendums on their membership shortly after.

You place way too much value on the EU, especially when you are looking at the position of the USA.

To put things into perspective.

The EU is currently the largest free market in the world.

The US is currently the largest military might in the world.

The US is trying to push through the TTIP currently to give American companies more competitiveness within the EU. Merkel wants to push this through to bind the EU more strongly with the largest military might in the world, but it will hurt the German people short, potentially long, term. There is quite an anti-TTIP wave rising in Germany. The fact that the TTIP may fail should show that the US must deal with the EU as an equal. Friends should operate this way anyhow, regardless of logistical differences.

Britain cannot violate EU policies and expect to take part in the free market. This is law, and must be enforced. I wish the Brits the best. Their sovereign choice will be respected. However, they are making a sovereign fuck up if they do decide to leave, and as such will be truly in charge of their destiny whatever that may be.

Those 13 noble prize winners should be taken seriously. Many of them won the award when it still stood for something. Trust a trumpian like Boris Johnson at your own peril.

Nobel prize winners warn leaving EU poses 'risk' to science
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36505736
 
if you idiots vote to leave the EU i will personally come round to your house and shit in your toaster.
 
What worries me is that people are voting "leave" for the wrong reasons -- because of who is in favour of remaining in the EU, rather than any serious cost-benefit analysis. And in a world where we're constantly offered a choice of shit or shite, we aren't used to making important decisions anymore.

I've said it before, but Britain as a country is like many of the characters in League of Gentlemen -- not as well-liked by others as we prefer to think. And the rest of the EU would be in the perfect position to impose punitive tariffs following a Brexit; who else can supply all the stuff we need to import, and who else is going to want to buy the little we export? (Much of which is so specialised, it would be useless to anyone save the original customer. A sunroof controller for a Citroën is no good to any other car maker. An ignition sequence controller for a Chaffoteaux boiler is useless to any other appliance builder. Those are just two examples from my former employer. Did I mention working nineteen twelve-hour days on the bounce building a piece of equipment "to meet a deadline", coming in the following Monday still fucked despite sleeping for most of the weekend, and that piece of gear sitting untouched for a fortnight?)

Whatever its faults, we need the EU more than the EU needs us, and we can't afford to piss it off.
 
Julie, I don't think additional tariffs would be punitive, just capitalistic. Capitalism encourages people to squeeze when there is something to squeeze. I support capitalism as a form of production, but as a form of distribution it is greatly lacking. Capitalism is in itself about winners and losers, and a Brexit vote would be Britain raising its hand to voluntarily join a losing side.
 
Oh, the word "punitive" will never be uttered aloud by those in authority; but I don't doubt that it will be exactly what everyone is thinking, at all levels. From workers in tourist resorts who look forward to the day they will never have to clean up another pile of English vomit, to the top-level politicians with thoughts of making an example, they will be pissing their pants with glee that we have decided to do for ourselves what they have long dreamed of being able to do to us.

Britain is the abusive partner in this relationship. We keep spoiling the European Dream, with our demands that workers be allowed to be treated like shit if they want, and we should be allowed to catch the last fish in the ocean if we want because it's ours, and environmental targets are making it too expensive to do business and make an obscene amount at the same time, and so forth.

And when did you last hear of an abusive partner dumping their partner first, then sitting down and talking and ending up better friends with their abused ex than they were before? That's what the Brexiteer fantasy amounts to .....
 
A mate posted something on Facebook the other day about how we should all vote leave and I posted something along the lines of "well I voted remain based on what I believe to be sound economic arguments" to which he replied "yeah well you've just voted for the very cunts that are shafting the industry you work in and protest to care about".....

I'd love to say I had a sensible retort.....but I didn't... Other than to say that the NHS has been shafted for over 50 years and we'd take it as an offence if we WEREN'T shafted"....

Not my best ever come back....
 
A mate posted something on Facebook the other day about how we should all vote leave and I posted something along the lines of "well I voted remain based on what I believe to be sound economic arguments" to which he replied "yeah well you've just voted for the very cunts that are shafting the industry you work in and protest to care about".....

I'd love to say I had a sensible retort.....but I didn't... Other than to say that the NHS has been shafted for over 50 years and we'd take it as an offence if we WEREN'T shafted"....

Not my best ever come back....

Well, from the perspective of an outsider I would say that Britain's own way of being has damaged Britain more than EU regulation ever could. The corruption of the financial markets and the City of London has long been seeping through into politics. I feel like the British, much like peoples in most western democracies are given certain, very specific things to vote for so that they feel they have a voice, while the vast majority of government is going on behind the scenes. It is hard to take the house of commons seriously. It is actually quite an odd predicament British politicians have put themselves into even allowing this thing to become a referendum.

Opportunistic leeches combined with a loser like Cameron have allowed for a pretty bad scenario to unfold. The way forward is not backwards, and if the British truly wanted to pull a win out of this one they would vote to remain, and use the massive support for a leave as a springboard to demand further EU reform. Who knows what Britain even wants from the EU at this point. Even if they stay the offense caused by such massive leave support will not be quickly forgotten. If used for something positive I have a feeling the populace of Europe would forgive and forget much more quickly.

The US is in the same boat, and Germany is in the process of boarding. Scandinavian nations seem to be some the only ones holding out against this process. Politicians and the mass media are turning reality into some Shakespearean tragicomedy, and the people are eating it up.

I actually view EU politics as more transparent than those of Britain, the US, France, or Germany. Our own political 'leaders' know us best, and also know how to avoid certain things best. They know how to distract their people while doing their cheap tricks behind the scenes. Why should something like the NHS be underfunded while certain elite, international individuals (not even Brits half the time) reap the benefits of massive growth? Even though not a direct democracy the policies of the EU are laid bare for most to see mainly because the 28 member nations can't be on the same page without publicizing policy.

If anything EU laws provide a shelter for the downtrodden and powerless. If you work in health services then you should know that workers in this industry have lost control of their own industry. Politicians in general the world over have seized health services in the name of providing safety, and now they make budgetary and legal decisions on things they have no idea about combined with allowing countless middlemen access to the market. Prices have ballooned, and budgets are chronically insufficient/misappropriated. I'm not even sure pouring more money into the system would be the solution considering here in Germany we manage to hold costs at about 1/10 of those in the US, while providing better average care. The downside is that in the name of cutting costs certain fields have become burn-out traps, and as such these positions are being avoided which has led to a vicious circle.

A good start would be to cut out the middle men, and give control of the field back to the professionals it belongs to. From what I know the EU has little influence over the British NHS. Here in Germany the influence of the EU on the Gesundheitssystem is negligible compared to decisions made by domestic politicians.

Something that would have a ton of negative influence on the healthcare systems across the EU would be the TTIP. That is a true threat, and could result in prices becoming impossibly high leading to a cut back in offered services.
 
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A A Gill on why Brexit is an abomination.




"It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.

And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.

All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.

There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.

The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in."
 
^ spot on.

This is the country we have to live in, it's not a fucking museum. We have to engage with the future and engage with our peers in a constructive manner. In a globally connected world, this parochial stupidity just doesn't cut it.
 
Despite my pure hatred of the government, and my previous vote in this thread's poll. I will be voting to remain in the EU.

So much police presence in London atm after this shooting. Do I feel safer? Not really.
 
Despite my pure hatred of the government, and my previous vote in this thread's poll. I will be voting to remain in the EU.

So much police presence in London atm after this shooting. Do I feel safer? Not really.

I'm surprised this shooting hasn't had much of a mention on BL yet actually...pretty shocking stuff.

I agree about the presence of armed cops not making people feel any safer (especially not if you happen to be a Brazilian electrician).

I used to share a house with an armed response cop and a bigger fucking tool you could not hope to meet.....
 
^Good shout - there tends to be quite a few right wing neo nazi muslim hating nutters in CEP, it'd be nice if EADD regulars ventured out there for debate (besides SHM/spacejunk).

I find it hard to get involved in the arab/muslim debates simply because the ones who are rational need not hear my side, and the rest are too narrow minded in their hatred for me to reason with....cop out, I know.

Oh how I miss Rachamim.
 
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