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Ego Games and Social Aspects of Psychedelics

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walshd55

Greenlighter
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
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18
I've very familiar with this topic and I've taken a heavy interest to it ever since I started getting into psychs....

However, one thing I haven't fully been able to understand to people is the how and why people interact with each so superficially...

I think everyone here knows what I'm talking about: That revelation when one sits down and suddenly the societal veil is lifted and human interaction becomes nothing more than a corrupt ego/power struggle.

Unfortunately, as everyone also seems to know, as you gradually come down social reality begins to fall right back into place and you're left with that nagging question of what the fuck happened and how come I don't see people like I just was when I was high?

What is it that we see that makes human interaction so fucked up????

I know the obvious general answer of ego games, people care about what others think, and fear but I mean more specficially....Like why is it when you're sitting in an LSD afterglow that you see how hollow cultural values are? How does that happen and what is it that is making us see it?

Huxley said: "It allows you to see past what is biologically and socially useful"



What bothers me most about this problem is that you always fall right back into routine and that you always come down...Sorry if this question is ambiguous but its hard to ask
 
Well... I'm not exactly sure what your question is... but it does take a lot of work and persistence to integrate the more genuine, intelligent, & empathetic modes of interaction experienced on psychedelics... habitual behavior patterns are deeply ingrained and dismantling them is usually an extended process.

So no, it doesn't happen overnight... but if you work daily to more effectively manifest love and communicate with others consciously & openly you WILL notice improvement.

But yes, it's very frustrating that we somehow can't just drop the bullshit all at once, especially when one lives in a society that is up to its ears in it.
 
I think everyone here knows what I'm talking about: That revelation when one sits down and suddenly the societal veil is lifted and human interaction becomes nothing more than a corrupt ego/power struggle.
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I get you there, and have felt the same thing- except I still think that having a qualititive view of culture (ie. corrupt) comes about through the basis of your own ego-mind. Hence its not all that different from the idea your assessing.

I think that looking at human interaction from an objective point of view always makes it seem petty and crude; as we are merely thinking animals, we have base desires/compulsions/patterns which we hide from view with our 'magnificent' intellect. Tripping makes all the games appear just as they are; simply games, with rules that are invented on the spot, and a few bigwigs cheating- and the tripper themself feels seperate from that. I mean, small talk is impossible for me on LSD- indeed, the thought of it is rather astonishing. Why is it that humans are constantly talking to each other about things nobody cares about??

But yeah, you come down and are back into the mindset. Simple reason- your not on LSD anymore. So you may not see the "truth"- but if its just not tangible when sober, is it true? You must remember that when your on acid, your entire thought structure is altered....The thing that I think is this: we live in a pretty silly society what with all the shallowness and instability, but as opposed to trying to transcend it, just walk to the left and right of it, and use what aspects of it you want. If humans are alway wearing some kind of mask, then, as a human who is aware of this, you can choose your mask, or just stop wearing- either way though, your a human and can't be sperate from the phenomena you might decry. I find playing the social game difficult if I 'play to win' but if I play for shts n giggles, then I feel fine. The only important thing acid really taught me is that NOTHING IS REALLY THAT IMPORTANT EVER.

Even acid. :)
 
I took one thing from my first acid trip, be happy. It was a truly humbling experience. I learned in 8 hours that no matter how shitty my life gets, its within my power to change it, and to finally appreciate all that i really have. As long as im still alive things can always get better.

Some things can leave an impact on you... Since that very first trip i have been a much happier person. I have a fucked up life, but i can manage it with a smile.
 
I think it is facial expressions.
I am much more sensitive to subtle changes in facial muscle tone and eye contact/gaze direction.
I can also hear finer discrepancies in vocal tone.
It all adds up to an ability to really analyze and dissect social interaction to the point where it feels false. Perhaps adults who have been socialized just have to learn to glass over these things for the social reward. I don't know.
 
you said exactly what ive said in the words ive said it

you wanna be freinds? i dont know anyone eles that knows whats up with that shit.

im the exact same way. and i always return!! gahhh i want the understanding and the life to stay!

i got it to stick around for a long time with holy spirit, but still fell back into the ego games! i dont think its something drugs can cure
 
Though i tend to see whats "really" going on when im tripping i dont think its fucked up. I mean people are asses really, they only want whats best for them. The best way to achieve this end is through falsification of self. What i really enjoy is pop music especially now adays. I love rap when not tripping then i get a kick out of me listening to it tripping. Kinda like "how do i listen to this crap?"

I also tend to think im the shit on acid... not act like an asshole but think like "fuck yeah im great, i can do anything" Im still all there so i dont do stupid things but its a good egomanic feeling, something i dont get sober unfortunately.
 
walshd55 said:
What bothers me most about this problem is that you always fall right back into routine and that you always come down...Sorry if this question is ambiguous but its hard to ask
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I think that in order to bring your "realisations" from the psychedelic experience outward & into the real world you'll probably need to use some sort of contemplative technique whilst sober. I'm told that meditation practice, amongst other real world practices can, with patience & dedication, allow one to "see more clearly". I have it on what I consider good authority that such methods can & do work.

Accessing the deep mindstate that LSD etc can provide isn't sustainable in the longer term by continuously eating LSD. You need to find another way. Psychedelics can open doors but it is you who must choose whether to walk through them or not

Couldn't hurt to try it anyway I wouldn't have thought.

Regarding society in general & "other people" well I'd forget about those as much as you can, if you want to change anything or anyone the start point is generally yourself :)
 
i got it to stick around for a long time with holy spirit
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Umm...can you elaborate on that? Are you talking about religion, or did 'holy spirit' mean something else? I'm lost after that statement.

Please explain what you meant...because it sounds to me like you got it to "stick around for a while" by finding religion. Is that what you meant?
I think that in order to bring your "realisations" from the psychedelic experience outward & into the real world you'll probably need to use some sort of contemplative technique whilst sober. I'm told that meditation practice, amongst other real world practices can, with patience & dedication, allow one to "see more clearly". I have it on what I consider good authority that such methods can & do work.

Accessing the deep mindstate that LSD etc can provide isn't sustainable in the longer term by continuously eating LSD. You need to find another way. Psychedelics can open doors but it is you who must choose whether to walk through them or not
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I know what you mean and agree. For example, during a heavy mushroom trip you can feel COMPLETELY reborn, and believe that you will stay that way for longer than the drug lasts, because it feels so natural, real, and you almost feel like, "There's no way that I will forget about all this important stuff I learned when the drug wears off. This experience will leave me changed, as I feel like a completely new person." However, the next morning, the insights seem to have drifted away, and you didn't feel permanent integration from the experience, though you really thought you would.

I do believe that something extra needs to be done in order to integrate these experiences better and actually change/better yourself as a person. EX: introspection, meditation, and analyzing the trip.

Erowid words it best (taken from the "Effects" page of the Mushroom vault):
One of the most interesting effects is the feeling of awakening for the first time ever from a previous state of sleep, of liberation from what is now seen as a life-long state of bondage. Paradoxically, it is this new awareness which feels normal and natural and the previous fog which is seen to have been unreal all along. The bemushroomed seeker is convinced that, once gained, this awareness is impossible to lose, but inexplicably by the next day it is just a memory.
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...just a memory...

I'm sure reaching a ++++ would be much different, however. I think a ++++ would be hard to forget about, whether blissful or mind-blowing. By the way, can you have a "bad trip" on a ++++?

Or would it not be considered a ++++ because Shulgin defines it as, "A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a 'peak experience', a 'religious experience,' 'divine transformation,' a 'state of Samadhi' and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes..." From my interpretation, this means that a ++++ is always a good experience, I assume (I am SURE they can be very hard to handle, but good overall).

If it was a "negative experience", it wouldn't even be considered a ++++, or am I wrong? I would assume that you need to be on a good run/trip to experience this rare state, because it wouldn't be "bliss" if you were terrified. I've never had a ++++, so I don't know, that's why I'm asking.... A ++++ is always a (primarily) positive experience, correct?
 
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^Hmm, I believe a ++++ trip can be "bad" during it, but with great rewards after. All of my most intense peak experiences (of which there have been 5, via DMT/DPT/salvia/5-MeO-DMT/ketamine) have had aspects of terror in them. The salvia experience frightened me terribly. Most things of value in the world are gained through difficulty I feel though- hence the value.

To me, the plus 4 state is something of a non-event, in that its such a subjective term. The fact is that if you have the Peak experience, you will know, good or bad.

For all the psychedelics I have taken, the most intense emotional and spiritual state I've experienced cam courtesy of a completely sober panic attack. I had a hangover, and that was it- but I was literally drooling and numb with terror, in hopsital with security people watching me- the terror of that was unbearable, but it would break momentarily and allow in the most blissful sensation of peace- which would then be obliterated by extreme fear, and all I could really do was shake and sweat and vomit and kinda gurgle for help. Hence, threatening to kill myself got me help :)....


Regarding society in general & "other people" well I'd forget about those as much as you can, if you want to change anything or anyone the start point is generally yourself
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Lovely B9 :) Thats cleared up a few thought cobwebs in my old head to be truthful
 
In truth, most human interaction is self motivated. You talk to people because you want something from them. People talk to you because they want something from you. Under LSD the head games that people play with each other become very obvious, and you start to question the motivations of those around you. In this state, I usually just start acting like a dick to anyone who seems to be trying to manipulate me. It isn't that I'm just tripping and people aren't really being manipulative, its that in sobriety you don't care. You tend to be more focused on what you are trying to get than what others are trying to get from you.
 
So then I have to ask: How do you respond to witnessing such superficial behavior?

When your under the influence its more than obvious but how do you act when you come back down?

Just not take anything seriously?
 
^Act the same, think differently. Choose your thoughts.
 
I had a wonderful acid trip a few weeks back; a high dose, good acid trip. The best experience with LSD I've ever had in fact, and one of my most important entheogenic experiences. And it was a communal trip, with like ten or twelve people or so, in the most perfect setting. As the trip got stronger, it was like everyone's minds were somehow interwined with empathy, and there were fountains of love springing everywhere. No cultural boundaries, no mental hesitations on communication, just pure flow. It even approached orgy levels, though it didn't get to that stage.

However, when everyone started coming down, which happened pretty much at the same time, conversation started to get awkward, jerky, and even in my mind there was so much second-guessing going on about what I was about to or should say. And as soon as it came out of my mouth it sounded ridiculous, absurd. I saw that everyone was having this problem, just by the look on their faces, and their were moments where I saw panic in people's eyes as they were momentarily confused as to the cranky responses they were getting from another.

I was the most quiet, laying there observing all this going on, still basking in the afterglow of such a beautiful and profound trip; yet it disturbed me that this mechanism of everyone's ego re-asserting itself was taking place, and it was also happening to me. In fact, I was very hesitant about opening my mouth, because I knew that the sound of my words would simply be too ugly for me.

It's all about cultural conditioning. We've spent a few hours in tryptamine hyperspace, knowing the fundamentals of universal reality and it's unbound potential, released from time itself, experiencing eternity, pure celestial love, the entire mechanics of this universe. Yet it has been, in 'real-time' as the ego would percieve it, a few hours; and we have been on this earth for decades. And all of those years, from the moment we were expelled from the womb, we have been offered straight up to this insane culture, one which we obviously have taken for granted because it is the only one we have known from birth.

Our parents offered us up, because they are part of it too, as they were offered up just as we were. So, even though the revelations and boundary dissolutions on a breakthrough psychedelic trip can be vast, eternal, within that space, we were only there a very short time in comparison to the amount of 'time' we have spent being brainwashed. If we truely want to free ourselves from these outrageous societital constructs, the path to spiritual enlightenment has to be a lifelong one, and not to be expected from just one single entheogenic experience.
 
Survived Abortion said:
However, when everyone started coming down, which happened pretty much at the same time, conversation started to get awkward, jerky, and even in my mind there was so much second-guessing going on about what I was about to or should say. And as soon as it came out of my mouth it sounded ridiculous, absurd. I saw that everyone was having this problem, just by the look on their faces, and their were moments where I saw panic in people's eyes as they were momentarily confused as to the cranky responses they were getting from another.

I was the most quiet, laying there observing all this going on, still basking in the afterglow of such a beautiful and profound trip; yet it disturbed me that this mechanism of everyone's ego re-asserting itself was taking place, and it was also happening to me. In fact, I was very hesitant about opening my mouth, because I knew that the sound of my words would simply be too ugly for me.
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Wow, I totally understand where you're coming from here. This exact thing happened to me last Friday.

There was a group of 5 of us, me and 2 others had taken 25mg of 4-ACO-DMT, and the other two (who initially planned to be sitters) jumped in for the ride once they saw how much fun we were having.

Even though it was obviously a great deal shorter than an acid trip, I thought this was a good thing as I was the only person there who had experienced "tryptamine-reality" before. The others were experienced with almost every other type of drug except psychedelics.

For the majority of the trip it was just pure love, pure harmony, as you said. It was quite a unique night for me, as this was a group of people who I had only recently started hanging out with, I was the oddball trying to fit into their 'clique' as it were. I had enjoyed their company before, but now this was a whole different experience because it felt as though we had finally shared something worthwhile; something memorable.

It was a hilarious night, the whole thing played out as if I was watching a real-life soap opera. The mind-games were still evident, they hadn't gone anywhere, but suddenly everything made sense and I realised that ego-games are simply a self-defence mechanism that EVERYONE has. It is just human.

This was all new to me, I'd never tripped with a whole group of people before this, only usually by myself or with my flatmate on rare occasions.

Anyway, at some point another mate of theirs showed up after the typical "HOLY SHIIIIT I'M TRIPPING BALLS!" phone call (you know the one). He was a lanky, odd fellow who was always on some kind of pill everytime I spoke to him. This night was no exception.

He walked in and immediately demanded that we put music on (we had turned the music off because at some points it became too intense for certain members of the group).

His eyes were rolling back in his head, and he acted like an arrogant dick to everyone. We all looked at each other and realised that this guy's mind was on a totally different wavelength to ours, almost a seperate dimenson altogether).

I remember sitting in the chair and feeling as though I was some kind of modern, shamanistic guru-man, because I'd brought love and peace to a group of people and had made a difference to their lives somehow. People kept asking me questions like 'where did you get this' and 'how much do you sell it for', you know.... the typical research chemical noob questions.

At one point I got a bit scientific when trying to explain the differences between phens and tryps, and this guy gave me a dirty look and said "WTF would you know Isaac Newton?"

The whole room went quiet and I just laughed, feeling sorry for this poor person who obviously had no ability to think before speaking.

This single comment was one of the most memorable points of the night for some reason, I'm not sure why.

Anyway, last I heard he finally overdosed on pills the other night and is now in hospital. His parents have found out about his drug problem.

Lol, that's karma for you.
 
Maybe I'm going off topic but for me, psychedelics have enabled a much more profound contact with my friends. I feel as if I can open up more and also have a greater power to find the relevant thoughts (live in the now rather than in the maybe).
 
swilow said:
^Act the same, think differently. Choose your thoughts.
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Or act as if you really believe your new perspective is real. Your old way of seeing the world is a habit, and will continue to return until it is given up.
 
Check this out:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9470/Lisa.html

It's a reprint of a 1967 pamphlet about using LSD in groups and it deals with these topics. It's called "Session Games People Play: A Manual for the Use of LSD)"

While personally I believe the best way to use psychedelics is to throw out the fucking manual ;) there is a lot of interesting shit in this little document.
 
In terms of how I act in sobriety, having seen the head games in complete clearity as an outside observer on LSD, I'd say that I am a lot less trusting of most people. I've never been a trusting person, but I wasn't particularly picky about my friends. Now, if I think someone is trying to manipulate me, I'm completely dismissive of them. They simply aren't worth my time. LSD has tought me to listen to my inner voice and trust it. If my inner voice says "this fool is selling something you don't want to buy" then I stay far away from them.
 
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