ECSTASY

Certainly that does sound like a needless tragedy caused by a lack of understanding of how the drug works - I'm fed up telling people why more than 1-2 pills won't keep producing the same effect for more than 5-6 hours max. That advice is given repeatedly on sites like this and dancesafe yet there are still occasionally stories like this which show the dangers of overloading your system. Moderation/common sense is vital when using any chemical. Pharmacies, liqour stores, even supermarkets will sell lethal quantities of a huge range of substances from whisky to aspirin to anyone, yet for some reason it is sometimes forgotten that ALL chemicals/substances are lethal if ingested in large enough quantities. Drinking too much water will kill you by causing tissue swelling, breathing 100% oxygen through a mask will kill you by continually slowing breathing rate (breathing rate is regulated by carbon dioxide levels in body tissue) yet these are necessary to live as well. I hope more people read this thread and wake up. phreeX is composing a medical FAQ and I have already asked him to include this issue as it is one that bothers me. Thanks for getting back with the info motherof2.......
 
Motherof2, its sad to hear that something this tragic happen to you. Ecstasy is not safe and will never be safe. But I will tell you that Ecstasy is not at fault here. Prohibition is the cause of his death.
As long as MDMA is prohibited, and user's must obtain their pills from the tainted black market, what happens when the pill is taken will always be unpredictable. Your son probably didn't take MDMA at all, he may have taken some adulterant such as DXM or DOB, maybe even Ketamine. If MDMA were legal, it could be regulated and obtained legally and the customer would know that he/she is buying the real thing, and the chances of dying would be very slim.
So please, don't blame his death on MDMA, his friends, or even the adulterant that killed him. It is a simple truth that the Government's ignorance and stupidity is what killed him. Drugs are a simple fact of life, some people will use them, and others won't. But there will always be those who do, and the Government's ignorance will keep killing those people, then they will say it was the drug's fault, which in most cases it isn't.
[This message has been edited by ecstacii (edited 11 May 2000).]
 
Paddyboy - you are absolutely correct this was a needless tragedy. Even though I don't believe in the use of this drug, more education is needed for them that do. If this is want you chose to do, then please educate youselves. And all of you that really don't know what drugs your putting into you system, then do research on it so you understand the pros and cons of the use. Your right there are many nature things that we put in our bodies that can kill if abused. So who's to say what's right and what's wrong. Thank You for suggesting that this issue be apart of the Medical FAQ. If this saves one more life, then Steve death won't seem so senseless.
Ecstacii - Our government does need to wake up and educate kids & adults alike on the use of drugs (not just by their silly ads they run or as I was told early by using scare tactics). I've heard of this drug through conversations with my kids, but didn't really understand what it was really was. It took the death of Steve for me to do research to understand. I should of been more aware and also more educated before this tradegy happen. But just as a lot of adults and kids say this won't happen to us. Ignorance will be the death of a lot more. So everyone a lot of you are very correct EDUCATING IS THE KEY.
 
It is really amazing how little people know about this drug, yet so many people take it. Not just in mainstream America, tight underground rave scenes, bars, clubs, home partiers, experimenters. It's so freely available, why do we have a complacent attitude with researching what we ingest?
Do we have a false sense of security because we feel our scientific medical system will bail us out?
Do we feel we are Bulletproof because we're American?
Do we see our parents generation haphazardly popping prescription drugs and decide it's ok for us to do so with mysterious black market pills?
Does this generation of kids have a sense of despair and subconsciously act it out through suicidal tendencies and reckless acts of self-destruction?
Or are these kids upper-class hedonists who are pushing their buzzes too hard?
So many issues the general public has to bring to the light. You could push the big picture through the eye of a needle and make it a 'tough on crime' approach a la mainstream media, but it's our kids we're talking about, it's the next generation.
This religiously dogmatic dominant stance does nothing but alienate and destroy.
Thanks motherof2 for having a balanced point of view. We need to see more of that so that we can learn to trust and share our information, experiences, and knowledge.
Once this generation is allowed to come out of the proverbial closet in terms of their drug usage, maybe we can start discussing safety and harm reduction in reality terms, something that is long overdue.......
 
I applaud all that you. Thank you motherof2. I thank you for keeping us informed and educating yourself on this issue instead of just stating what you knew and leaving. I know that through this tread it makes me really think.
Personally I am 25 my best friend who is 19 introduced me to e as a bonding experience and an exploration of myself. I don't feel that he was being as responsible as he should have been with the use of this drug and I know that his friends haven't been. This is due to the purity of the drug and who you get it from.
I totally encourage that we not use scare tactics. The teens that I am around just blow it off because they believe it is too extreme just to quit everything. But even though you may not believe that it is responsible to do this drug or any other drug there are more responsible ways to behave.
I have recently purchased a testing kit. I test the pills that I take. I try to buy from someone that I know from a source that we know. I will not let any of my friends take pills that I have not tested and tried myself.
My best friend keeps me accountable. I do not abuse the use of this drug. I have never taken more than 1.5 pills and never intend to. My best friend who introduced me to the drug almost died from taking 2 pills of what he believed was e. In truth we now know, through testing, he took a pill of DXM and one that was MDMA. If there is a doubt and you feel you must take more than one pill never NEVER mix two types of pills. I love him dearly and my life wouldn’t be the same without him. Anyone who has really tried to educated themselves knows mixing DXM and MDMA causes heart palpitations which can lead to heart attacks. He had irregular heartbeats for several days.
Any drug including alcohol can be fatal if ingested in an inappropriate amount. I have a friend of mine who went to the hospital to have her stomach pumped due to alcohol poisoning. I have friends that I know who abuse alcohol (because it is legal) and frown on me for taking MDMA.
I haven’t always been this responsible, limiting the amount I take and how often. It is due to education that I try to look out for my friends and that is the reason I test batches of pills that we get. I don’t approve of my friends taking large amounts, to some extent there is nothing I can do but I try to do what I can and to be a good example on MY usage.
I NEVER encourage someone to start taking MDMA but if someone comes to me and wants to try it I have some warnings that I have gathered and some expectations for the drug. Also there are warnings out there for people with preexisting conditions and there is information out there that tells what other legal drug are dangerous to take e with. If someone comes to me I will tell them all that and tell them to think about it and know the risk they are taking.
I attend raves. I see way too many fucked up people strung out on too many drugs. I have been there. But I have learned, fortunately fairly quickly without consequences. I recommend educating yourself so that you can educated others. I know that I am doing all I can to make my friends choices as safe as I can.
Motherof2 thank you for staying with us and informing us. If you would like site names or any other information that I have gathered please email me privately. In fact that goes for anyone.
Now to my personal experience and why I still take e. It really has helped me explore myself. I have become closer to my best friend who introduced me to this drug and more in-tune with myself. We keep each other accountable to the methods that we acquire the drug and how much and how often we take it. Personally I take e an average of twice a month. Tonight I will be taking e that I have had tested with my best friend and my husband. Just the three of us. We are all very close and I know the experience will make us closer.
Thanks to all of you.
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This is why defeat of the current House bill that would ban American hosting of sites such as this is SO important. If there are no sites with actual information on drugs, the only info out there will be the inadequate government information ("Don't do it!" and little else).
9 pills? Wow....
One other interesting sidelight...it is quite possible that GHB may have played a roll in this death...aaccording to my understanding of toxicology, G is undetectable shortly after death because the body produces GHB naturally...and the output increases at time of death. Convulsions sure sound like G overdose to me...tho it is very possible nine pills could have definitely done the trick.
I wonder how much is going to be made in ther media of the sheer (ridiculous) amount of E this young man consumed, or will we just hear the normal media hype with no substantive info?
Oh...Motherof2...thank you so much for not taking a 'preachy' stance on this, but providing us with actual balanced factual info....
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If it's orange and fuzzy, it's FoXy...therefore it's a CANDYFLIPPER!
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 15 May 2000).]
 
All the information that all of you have provided has been a wonderful help. I know that my daughter is not a user. She has seen two of her friends die in the last 9 mos. From the "quote" "unquote" drug ectasy. But with the information that has been provided, it is pretty scaring that this may not be all their taken. My son is a young man and if he has or will decide to experiment, the more information that I know the more education that I will be able to provide to him. I know that preaching will not do the trick. Education will. All I can do is learn everything possible on the pros and cons of this. If educating these wonderful young adults helps to save their life, then let so be it. I know alot of people (acquiesces of mine) that would think that this would be promoting this drug. I don't feel that way, because this is out there and they are going to take it regardless of how opposed you are with it. So helping them to understand is the important way to go. And as always there will the ones that know everything and won't listen. My thoughts are if don't want to educate yourself on the things that you put into your body, then you must have a low self-esteem. But all of you that do have a low self-esteem on yourself remember there is always someone out there that thinks the world of you. And the lose of you will always put a black spot in their lives.
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 15 May 2000).]
 
FoX- Who's orange?
smile.gif

Fuzzy
 
There have been some very excellent comments made to Mother of 2 on this thread. Kudos to everyone!
Unfortunately, nobody stated the obvious, so I will do that here ...
Kids shouldn't be taking drugs, any drugs. Neither should any "adult" who does not have the maturity to know how to handle them. It's that simple. It’s not that drugs are bad (though everybody out there certainly wants to make it seem that way), but that, just like so many other common-place things in our lives (i.e. kitchen knives, electrical outlets, appliances near the bathtub, driving, etc.), they are dangerous in the hands of the ignorant.
These things happen because kids don't have enough of a concept of limits or common sense. If it feels good, they don't bother with anything else. I use drugs, but I also know when NOT to use them. I know the role they play in my life, and what I use them for. I use drugs, not the other way around.
In addition, the parents who were downstairs while their kid was at an all-out drug orgy (which, if they were all so hardcore messed up they thought his convulsions were funny, that's precisely was it was), are at fault as well, and not just because they weren’t aware of the kinds of things and people that their kid was into. No, we can't follow our kids around everywhere they go, but the kind of scene that this kid was at had to have seemed like a hell of a lot more than just a regular drinking-punch-and-dancing party … and his parents were just one floor away. They had the opportunity to discretely get a glimpse of what was going on, and yet they had no idea.
I feel very badly for this kid and his family. It’s a terrible thing, and I send my deepest condolences. At the same time, though, is it reasonable to then conclude that NOBODY should do it? Hundreds of thousands of people die in car accidents every year, should we all stop driving?
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Don't you know it's all in your head?
 
Hats off to you keka. I agree that the parents should of also been more aware. They are good people, but lost in the dark. As I was as well. But not anymore!
 
Motherof2-
Your assessment of education vs prohibition is nothing short of perfect. One of the reasons I persisted in smoking as a teenager was pure rebellion at being told what to do with no explanation and threat of heavy punishment by my parents. I thought that since my mother smoked (but tried to hide it) I knew better and was being told not to do it because of it's image. If she had told me then about the pain and suffering she went through trying to give up and her personal embarrassment at not being able to quit I would almost certainly have reacted in a different way. I now agree with her that it wasn't a good idea (understatement) and although I have almost beaten it mentally I am still struggling occasionally, especially at weekends when I let my myself go a bit. Your attitude will be much better received than venting anger and meting out punishment, and almost certainly get the results you want.
 
my sympathies go out for the child's friends and relatives, although i do feel that the reasons for his death don't cut it when you say "it was the governments fault" because we paid some guy we know with a wad of cash for pills that we swallow with a big smile on our faces...i think the more important question to address is why this boy took nine pills. motherof2, your first message suggests that it was one of the boy's first experiences with the drug, in which nine pills is way way too much (probably for anybody if you ask me). perhaps he was an experienced user with a tolerance, thus the need for a higher dosage, but it does not sound like this from your messages.
its a tradgey that deaths like these are occuring, and i think we really need to encourage safe recreational drug taking...safe dosages and appropriate breaks between partying. not a lot is known about effects of ecsasty, so the least we can do is practice harm minimisation, which i think is important to teach one and all.
BuckE
[This message has been edited by BuckE (edited 17 May 2000).]
 
first, i would like to say that i'm sorrie for the loss of this boy's life.. my prayers are with him and his family and friends in their time of grieving..
i would also like to thank you for your openmindedness Motherof2.. this is definately what and how we would like other people to see... alot of people don't realize that we aren't druggies.. we are young ppl with futures.. so thank you for being so understanding..
and to all the bluelighters who responded.. props to you guys for going about informing her in a nice way.. i know it could've been easy to just blow up..
so to both sides.. thanx.. cause this is what we need~ if the government could just realize that informing them is more important than trying to get it off the streets.. but yeah huh..
oh yeah.. *bump* definately a good thing to read..
 
Here's an interesting question: both in this instance and in that damned Dateline story we are presented with kids who took nine pills at once. Now I don't know about where you're from, but i don't think these kids were getting these pills for less than $10 each (and probably closer to $20), so that's between $90 and $180 for their roll. LUDICROUS! Kids either have *way* too much money or what they were buying wasn't MDMA but rather something much cheaper.
Damn, if anyone is willing to spend $180 to roll for a few hours I've got some beautiful oceanfront property in Montana I'd like you to take a look at.
Fuzzy
[This message has been edited by Fuzzzone (edited 17 May 2000).]
 
BuckE - I'm not really blaming the government for this boys death. I said that they should educate themselves more. So that they could educate the public w/ actual facts and correct information. They get a little information and add their 2 cents to it of what they perceive it to be. As well as everyone in this world, they need more education as well. I'm not pointing my finger at anyone. I'm blaming the lack of education and concern of parents, friends, relatives who ever is in direct contact of another. Even myself, because before this accident. I had no clue and education on alot of these drugs. But I'm trying to understand all of you and your point of view of this. Not saying that I agree w/ everything that I'm being told. But the education of learning about this drug has been very helpful for my understanding. I always have a lot of young people around my home, and talking w/ them w/ the information that has been provided for me has been a great help to them as well. It's great that I have this information, because as the word gets around they are coming and asking what else I have found out. So the blame here isn't direct in anyones direction. Like I said earlier that if educating myself, so that I can educate people around me and save another life. Then this young man's death won't be for nothing.
Fuzzone - I agree.
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 17 May 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 17 May 2000).]
 
Motherof2,
Much respect to you for taking the time to learn about MDMA instead of falling prey to the ineffectual "drugs are bad, m'kay?" mentality that pervades U.S. culture. So few of the older, "non-imbibing" generation are willing to put forth that effort. Thank you for listening to the other side.
Education is the key; not misinformation, not criminalization. It is inherent in the majority of the human population to alter ourselves in some way, shape, or form. The best we can hope for then is to KNOW what we are doing to ourselves...the good and the bad. Making informed judgements is the best way to protect ourselves and grow as individuals.
I've seen far too many kids spout, "how could something that feels so good be bad for you?" These are the kids who no longer believe what their government tells them. They've grown up while being fed a steady diet of "marijuana leads to all other drugs" and other complete distortions/inaccuracies. They aren't willing to believe that MDMA might have a downside...it would destroy this little Eden they've created that perpetuates their own illusions. That's no way to live life.
When will the ruling elite realize that you can't continually lie to people "for their own good?" When will they muster the courage to face the political suicide of decriminalizing these substances and start treating them as health problems? I don't think they ever will, since they are far more concerned with re-election than they are with working for the common good. My God, working for the common good is COMMUNIST!!!
Take a long, hard look at the new position of former hardline antidrug proponents George F. Will and George Shultz...two very conservative elders. They both have agreed that criminalization of drugs serves no purpose other than to turn a sizable percentage of our population into criminals, while killing many who don't have access to proper information or are caught in the gang-related crossfire.
You can't use "it's dangerous" as a justifiable reason for the lies and drug laws since Tylenol has a higher toxicity rating than almost every recreational drug on the market. No, it must be something else.
Could it be that the Drug War employs thousands of people? Could it be that those of us most likely to take drugs are those most likely to initiate some changes in our diseased political system? Could it be that it fills our prison system with cheap labor (less than a dollar a day pay scale) to produce goods that compete with foreign labor markets? Could it be that the drug cartels that crop up in every sector of the world do a better job of keeping their local populace in line (i.e. anti-communist) than any government could? Could it be that fat cats with their 4 martini lunches and smuggled Cuban cigars love the power of throwing the counter culture into prison?
Who knows. All I know is that every aspect is wrong. Economically wrong. Ethically wrong. Pragmatically wrong. Morally wrong. They sit atop a crumbling heap that is the ruin of our civilization because it keeps them at the top of the heap long past their due.
I only wish I had the motivation to follow Thomas Jefferson's words of so many years ago: "a little revolution every 20 years is a good thing (paraphrased)."
Take a look at nature for the answers...systems are ripped apart to allow new growth; forest fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanos, winter, fer Chrissakes. Yet still the "higher-ups" try to impose a structure counter to our very base natures; they try in vain to hold off entropy so their comfortable position won't be threatened. In doing so, more laws must be inacted, more straps tied around the beast that drives change...and when those straps finally break (which they will...they must), the built up momentum could very well be more violent than anything they could have ever imagined.
We are human. We are spawned from nature. It's rules still apply to us, regardless of how far above it we think we are. The longer we deny it, the greater the inevitable backlash.
My apologies for the mental meanderings...I am in quite a mood today.
*Sticky wanders off to shake the sprawling, rambling, pretentious thoughts out of his head...time for a good cortical scrub*
 
Mother of 2: I too send you my love and sympathy in the situation.
With regards to the situation, I have only a few things to add:
1. Please bare in mind that in the black market, many pills are sold as "ecstasy" but that does not mean those pills actually contain MDMA. Case in point: I was offered "pure E" at a rave, and I asked the guy selling it, "...do you have any mdma powder?" To which he said, "What's that?"
2. Too many kids still think that, like other drugs, if you keep taking more MDMA you'll stay high. The truth is, once your seretonin is released and absorbed, your roll stops. No more pills will bring back the roll. Eating more is not the answer. Taking breaks (2-3 weeks) in between rolls is one of the only safe(er) methods of preventing neurotoxic damage as well as keeping away an MDMA tolerance.
3. TEST YOUR DAMNED PILLS/POWDER. Is your life not worth the $10 for a test kit? In the underground, when it comes to drugs, you can trust NOBODY. Not even your friends...because even though they might not be malicious, you might not know who they bought their stuff from and so forth. NEVER take it personally when your friends want to test a pill you have for sale.
4. This is just like the debate back in the day when condoms should be made available to kids in school (and even further back to the arguments of sex education in general). Regardless of the law, we know people will do whatever they want. Isn't it better to make the truth known (from both sides of any argument) so those individuals who do decide to take drugs, have sex, get an abortion, etc., make informed choices? I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a child testing his or her pills and learning about how the drug works than having them not care and eat 4 pills and then suddenly have to have their liver removed in emergency surgery...ya know?
Finally, the only person you can really change/influence is yourself. No matter how much we love anyone else, we can only offer them acceptance and support. If you have children who use drugs...discuss the situation maturely. If you don't want them to do drugs, tell them WHY. Present information (scientific evidence, not an NBC news show) that shows any side-effects or results from long-term use. Let them know that regardless of the choices they make you'll still love them but also let them know where you stand on the issue. It might break your heart to see your child doing something you don't want them to...but is alienation and condemnation any way to make the situation better?
It's very sad what happened...but ecstasy did not kill them...irresponsibility and (most likely) uninformed choice/arrogance is what really brought about the problem.
Love & Hugs,
Jim
 
You are absoultely correct on all your issues. I talk very openly to my family, and my family extends beyond my children, their friends and their family. I have passed on information from you all, some just roll their eyes and some really listen. We had a news broadcast last night regarding these Mitsubishi's that these are not estasy (MDMA) that they are PMA's. And the symptons that this young man had, matched pretty damn close to what they where saying. I have talked to few about this testing that I was told about. And was asked to gather information to how they can obtain
this.(I have found out how) It's scaring in a way because I don't want them to think that I approve of this, but in the same token I want them to be safe. Then of course I have issues with some of the other parents, with me providing this information. I told one parent that if we don't start education our kids and getting involved, we are going to see a lot more deaths. (we can't make them stop, but we can provide them with education and testing equipement). They say with us providing this that we are also agreeing to them using. That's not what your doing in my eyes. But I can only do as I feel fit.
So to all that use, please test your stuff. It could mean the difference between life or death.
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 19 May 2000).]
 
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