Ecstasy brain damage?

[F1n1shed]

tek, nice post dude I hope you get better. As for that idiotic thing I said about me rolling again with anti oxidants... Fuck that! Tek you just changed my mind completely I am done with this chemical. Id rather not risk mental and cognitive issues, and as you said you waited 4 years and still problems remain? I am taking into consideration that you were a heavy user but the fact of the matter is these issues happened, I will not let a minor form of them stay with me because I would be using moderately of course.

 

[tek75]

Thanks Shambles and F1n1shed, it seems to get a little better as the years go by!

Shambles, i must admit i was a little lazy and didn't properly read the scientific studies posted by Felix so will retract the statement saying they were flawed.

F1n1shed i was a heavy user, 5 - 10 tabs (never more than this) on a single sitting (friday or saturday night) weekly for 2 years and cut back drastically and used for another year or 2 just occasionally. I assume this is a fairly common usage pattern for many clubbers in the UK.

I imagine double / triple dropping on a regular basis also contributed to my problems, i regret being so reckless!

I've read other posts with people taking many years to recover, it will be interesting to hear from anyone in a similar situation. A big question is whether damage is reversible or permanent.

 

[Endymion00]

I don't understand why people can't use in moderation. The world would be a better place if everyone knew some sense of self control. Ecstasy isn't physically addicting. You don't get withdrawals from it. The mental aspect however...I think that all has to do with everyone's personality. And let's face it, some are better when it comes to self control.

I only roll during a huge event or every 5-6 months. I don't do it every weekend or for every party.

So even if MDMA use (abuse) does cause 'brain damage' I don't think I'll be experiencing it as I don't abuse the drug. Common sense is knowledge.

 

[Shambles]

F1n1shed i was a heavy user, 5 - 10 tabs (never more than this) on a single sitting (friday or saturday night) weekly for 2 years and cut back drastically and used for another year or 2 just occasionally. I assume this is a fairly common usage pattern for many clubbers in the UK.

Ooh! Ooh! Would you mind if I test my pet theory on you? About to happen but feel free to tell me I'm way off or just to fuck off :D

The time you used for, was it university kinda years? Or equivalent - late teens/early 20s. Hammered hell out of what I would call UK average night - 5-10 (more in many cases) pills at clubs most weekends, probably didn't test many if any, loadsa booze, maybe a bit of coke and/or speed (and probably weed) here and there if that's ya thang, stopped after Uni or towards the end had totally "lost the magic" getting horrid comedowns and swore off 'em for life - with some lingering issues.

Not based on you specifically, but on similar stories to yours I've heard before that seem to share some similarities. If I'm totally wrong I won't be surprised - then it's back to the drawing board and onto the next wild bit of pure theory and guesswork :D

 

[tek75]

That description fitted me pretty well back then except i was 25 when it all started (2001)

Would drink a fair amount of booze with them (4 - 5 pints), not really got into the coke and speed thing but have tried on occasion.

Weed always on the comedown, in fact discovering that weed + pills amplified the high by a huge magnitude makes me think that combo may have contributed to problems further down the road.
My mates seem to just laugh and chat normally with a few joints after a big pill night out, i always seemed to go in my own world, really trippy experiences.

The weed and mdma combo seemed to be 10 times stronger than a few pills alone. I only know a few people who got affected like that so maybe should have taken it as a warning sign.

Someone mentioned here that the 'weed high' changes over time. I must say i got more sensitive to weed, like a huge amount of creative and completely crazy thoughts would completely consume me only after a puff or two!

I start to think people (like myself) who are sensitive to weed have different brain chemistry and will more likely have issues with mdma, and especially the two together.

I felt (relatively) normal before all this so can be almost impossible to predict a drug's effect on your personality a few years down the road.

 

[MazDan]

Ecstasy is the only drug where you will use it 1 time a month and still notice changes. And as you continue the pattern it will get worse and worse and you will just adjust to the changes.

This is the reason I had a problem with felix.

He also tried making statements as if they were fact.

Now you are trying to do the same.

You cannot make statements of fact without supplying sources.

If you cannot supply sources then you really should be making it clear that this is only your opinion.

Hence preface things such as that with IMO.

 

[Woodrowbt]

That description fitted me pretty well back then except i was 25 when it all started (2001)

Would drink a fair amount of booze with them (4 - 5 pints), not really got into the coke and speed thing but have tried on occasion.

Weed always on the comedown, in fact discovering that weed + pills amplified the high by a huge magnitude makes me think that combo may have contributed to problems further down the road.
My mates seem to just laugh and chat normally with a few joints after a big pill night out, i always seemed to go in my own world, really trippy experiences.

The weed and mdma combo seemed to be 10 times stronger than a few pills alone. I only know a few people who got affected like that so maybe should have taken it as a warning sign.

Someone mentioned here that the 'weed high' changes over time. I must say i got more sensitive to weed, like a huge amount of creative and completely crazy thoughts would completely consume me only after a puff or two!

I start to think people (like myself) who are sensitive to weed have different brain chemistry and will more likely have issues with mdma, and especially the two together.

I felt (relatively) normal before all this so can be almost impossible to predict a drug's effect on your personality a few years down the road.

About the weed sensitivity thing. I did E for about 5 years.....abusive at 1st then with moderation later. (I'm currently wanting to do some with the wife soon-i'm not sourcing, just saying)

I'm EXTREMELY sensitive to weed. I can take 2 puffs of weed and not understand a fucking thing that is going on around me. 2 puffs will have me shitting in my pants scared of the smallest things. Sitting on the couch in a fucked up daze completely stupid and scared with anxiety.

But i've never had a problem with E. (i never mixed weed and E....just recently smoked weed for the 1st time)



I also never really mixed anything with E except coke one time....that i remember

 

[Monkeybizness]

I am an ex-user who used heavily on a weekly basis over approximately 2 years. It took over a year of weekly abuse to start noticing problems with sleep problems, impaired cognitive ability (especially concentration and learning ability), bad anxiety, social phobia, memory problems and moderate HPPD. (but no depression)

I have stopped using altogether for 4 YEARS and can tell you that most of my problems still remain, the anxiety is better to some extent but concentration and learning ability is still as bad as it was 4 years ago.
I never had these problems previously maybe a little shy in my teen years.

I start to think the damage is permanent but only time will tell.

As a poster mentioned a while ago it depends on an individual's biological make up and heavy use will magnify latent psychological issues (such as shyness possibly, as in my case)

I haven't read every post in this thread but it will be interesting to hear from someone who has solely abused more purer forms of ecstasy (such as crystal mdma) rather than pressed pills to balance the discussion.

I'm not completely convinced that mdma may have caused all my problems but the interactions will chemicals in the adulterants of pressed pills (especially amphetamine) with each other and mdma would more likely potentiate the long term side effects?

This only my opinion but i imagine the main adulterant in pills between 2001 - 2005 was speed / amphetamine, maybe the speed and mdma combo is more neurotoxic then mdma / mda alone?

I feel it could be a potential timebomb with newer research chemicals such as mephedrone,methylone, BZP etc in the mix as adulterants, these reactions with mdma could be more severe.

Felix please consider the users on this board who have had bad experiences and take it on board before it is (possibly) too late for you. I would hate you to go through the same long term effects and suffering i have gone through in the last 4 years. (and some of my friends)
Not all people suffer serious psychological issues but there is a good chance you will eventually suffer negative consequences from your use.

I must also point out this board alone and no where else on the internet made me decide to cut down my use in 2003 and that was solely from the posts from people who had negative experiences. I could of been in a much worse situation mentally if i had not quit when i did and this is probably the same for many other people.
This is a harm reduction board and a very valuable tool in times where ignorance and flawed scientific studies (such as those mentioned by Felix) will erode the truth seeked by all.

With much misinformation circulating the internet, genuine personal experiences reported by joe public may prove more valuable until scientific studies become more accurate.

my point exactly ... great post .. ignorance is bliss and any substance / chemical ABUSED causes problems.

things as simple as the threads that are on topic now such as


long term muscle twitching from mdma?
bben

Chattery jaw permanent?
Stay.Blazed.420


Roll lasting forever for anyone else?
TheColors

by our fellow members of bluelight should be taken more into consideration ..
that itself should be enough to prove that it does cause sorts of brain trauma ..i dont like to say brain damaged because thats extreme.. but yes trauma .



my point... we can go on all day about scientific discoveries or research ...
but to me the real proof are personal experiences such as the ones our bluelight members post ...

mdma is a strong mind altering substance and this is a harm reduction site .... sooo ... yeah

 

[Worrgames]

I am curious; just for my own personal understanding (because I haven't done largely in-depth reading on E related studies, and I know some people here have).

Does the cognitive deficiencies that stem from E use occur as a direct result of the lower serotonin levels exclusively, or does it impact the brain in other manners? I ask, because a lot of the cognitive issues current and former E-users experience (ie, concentration issues, memory issues, lack of awareness, etc), are all consistent with non-ecstasy users that have depression. As people with non-E related depression rid themselves of their depression, these cognitive issues dissipate as well. In my case, I have felt emotionally distant and "off" since I had started using E. So you could say I have been depressed, despite most of the time it being very marginally, for a bit over 3 years. All these cognitive issues have accompanied the depression and they worsen, when I am in times of stronger depression / anxiety.

If this is true for E induced depression, would the stabilizing of our serotonin levels, in turn, work towards stabilizing our cognitive functions? Stabilizing of our serotonin levels can be achieved through the necessary lifestyle changes such as:

- Stopping E consumption completely
- Strongly Limiting / Eliminating other drugs / alcohol
- High L–tryptophan intake from our diet
- High Omega-3 intake from our diet
- A vigorous, consistent exercise schedule
- Eliminating "poor diet" foods
- Ensuring you're doing activities you know you enjoy (even when feeling depressed deters you from wanting to do them)
- Meditation

So if this is true; we could correct, or at least strongly alleviate both our emotional issues, and cognitive issues through the same means.


Please forgive my ignorance on the subject; I hope I can receive some more insight. I simply drew my thought processes through the correlation between the type of cognitive defects found in both E-Depressed and Normally depressed people, and really don't know for certain if this correlation is a mere coincidence and that other brain issues are present.

I know there are people out there with issues that still persist; but have these people taken, and lived by for an extended period of time, the appropriate lifestyle changes that are needed to help fight depression? I know through experience, that some people I've known hadn't recovered very well; but a huge culprit in all that could likely be that they still were not very healthy people during the steps to recovery.

Sorry, I am tired and rambling at this point. However, the theory may have some valid points to it. I would be happy to hear people's thoughts.

 

[Woodrowbt]

So your theory of most of MDMA's known side effects is all caused by depression?

It might be. A lot of side effects come from depression. Depression can cause anxiety and anxiety can cause depression. I've experienced anxiety recently from pipes and weed.,...let me tell you for a while i had a lot of the side effects that people talk about on these forums.

Feeling crazy.
Hard to speak.
Hard to speak to new people.
Stuttering.
Feeling like things arent real.
Couldn't concentrate.
Horrible memory problems.
The list goes on.....especially if your anxiety gets the best of you and you dwell on your problems.

Those are alot of syptoms i read about on this site.....all caused by anxiety and depression.

Mine was brought on by weed and a bad night with pipes about 5 months ago.(its been yeaaaars since i rolled)

 

[bben]

Heres an interesting article for anyone suffering from intolerable depression due to MDMA abuse. I myself shall soon be undergoing a similar treatment. There is hope for those of us who got royally fucked from MDMA, which i will concede is the minority. But the majority shouldnt ignore the fact that some people have bad reactions magnified by abuse.

"Depression in former ecstasy users may not respond to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) possibly due to damaged serotonergic synapses following long-term heavy ecstasy use.

We report findings in a patient suffering from MDMA-induced depression which was refractory to several antidepressive medications including selective noradrenergic reuptake inhibitor (SNRI) and SSRI. An add-on repeated bilateral electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) was able to achieve a stable remission of affective and cognitive symptoms with a follow-up of more than 1.5 years.

Add-on ECT could be a treatment option in former ecstasy users with severe depressive disorders that fail to respond to SSRI and/or SNRI. Clinical trials are needed to evaluate further the usefulness of ECT in this patient group."

Key Words: MDMA, ecstasy, depression, 5-HT, neurotoxicity, electroconvulsive therapy

http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/0269881106067243v1

 

[tek75]

In my case despite all the negative effects that i still suffer 4 years later, i can't say i've ever been depressed.
Mood swings certainly still persist but mood is generally quite good though i get irritable at the slightest bad thing!

I wish all mdma abuse symptoms could be linked to depression but i feel something more is happening here (that's just my opinion though)

The anxiety, memory/concentration issues and sleep problems are the things that are still most noticable for me.
My sleep patterns are disrupted, i've never had a full 8 hours sleep for approximately 8 years, i will always wake a few times each night (and will never get more than 4 hours continuous sleep)

Maybe a lot of ecstasy related problems are caused from messed up sleep cycles? Does anyone with noticable long term effects still sleep well?

 

[Worrgames]

Maybe a lot of ecstasy related problems are caused from messed up sleep cycles? Does anyone with noticeable long term effects still sleep well?

Lack of proper sleep can cause a lot of cognitive issues. In addition to my cognitive problems increasing when I am depressed/anxious; they also increase when I am not sleeping properly. I can safely say I never get restful sleep like I did prior to using ecstasy. Rarely, I will get a good sleep, and wake up rested; much happier mood wise, and sharper mentally. Your thoughts on sleep being a big contributor brings up a strong point. Maybe strong aid to recovery is correcting sleep patterns? Even if the poor sleep cycles are not the cause of all your cognitive issues, it would be relatively safe to say that it's probably a contributor to the issues. I am not a doctor obviously, but this would just be common sense. People generally have a mental "slowness" when they aren't rested.

I have been reading a bit more into 5htp lately. I know a lot of Ecstasy users use it in conjunction (by in conjunction I mean within the following days) with the Ecstasy use; however, what about recovering Ecstasy users? It's less harmful side effect wise than anti-depressants (which arguably don't work on E-induced depressions anyways). Also, 5htp in most cases, actually induces the restful REM sleep we need (which is the opposite of what a lot of anti-depressants do). I've never tried 5htp in conjunction with my ecstasy use or used it at all for that matter, however, I am actually quite compelled at this time to at least try it during recovery time to see how it contributes. Maybe it will be a strong aid in preventing poor sleep cycles, and as a result, may in turn yield cognitive improvements? Again, all theories at this point.

Edit:


Also, in the scenario of depression not being the issue, and only sleep, you can skip the 5htp step and look into melatonin. If you aren't aware of melatonin; it is essentially the precursor to restful sleep in your brain. Your brain releases it when it is preparing to sleep (ie: when you're feeling fatigued, it's dark outside, you're in a dark room). 5HTP helps sleep by stimulating the release melatonin, but as I said, you can take melatonin directly, and you may see better results with your sleep. It is not recommended for use in depressed people; but if you say you aren't depressed, you shouldn't have an issue. If you haven't considered melatonin before, I would recommend at least doing some research into it; so many people have seen great results. These natural aids get very little attention despite their strong effectiveness due to pharmaceutical companies not being able see profits from it.

 

[tek75]

Worrgames thanks for the suggestion. I've read about melatonin supplements before, will be quite willing to give it a try as long as there's no side effects.

Would be amazing if this fixed my issues and anyone else reading this thread.

 

[bben]

In my case despite all the negative effects that i still suffer 4 years later, i can't say i've ever been depressed.
Mood swings certainly still persist but mood is generally quite good though i get irritable at the slightest bad thing!

I wish all mdma abuse symptoms could be linked to depression but i feel something more is happening here (that's just my opinion though)

The anxiety, memory/concentration issues and sleep problems are the things that are still most noticable for me.
My sleep patterns are disrupted, i've never had a full 8 hours sleep for approximately 8 years, i will always wake a few times each night (and will never get more than 4 hours continuous sleep)

Maybe a lot of ecstasy related problems are caused from messed up sleep cycles? Does anyone with noticable long term effects still sleep well?

'

Below is a good article with a link on what may be happening.

Ecstasy 'ruins body clock'



Ecstasy users could be ruining their long-term health

The recreational drug ecstasy could damage users' body clocks, making them feel permanently jet-lagged, scientists have said.
Research carried out by Dr Stephany Biello, a psychologist at Glasgow University, suggests that ecstasy disrupts the sensitive clock mechanism in the brain by damaging cells that contain serotonin.

Serotonin carries messages between nerves and is thought to play a role in regulating sleep patterns in humans as well as their mood, memory, perception of pain, appetite and libido.

The damage caused in humans could be permanent as research indicates that once a serotonin pathway is damaged it can never repair itself.

Dr Biello and her colleague Dr Richard Dafters began their research after seeing a report which said regular ecstasy use had been linked to mood disorders, depressive conditions and sleep disruption.





Ecstasy is popular with clubbers

These are all classic signs of a malfunctioning body clock.
They found that ecstasy changed behaviour patterns in experimental subjects, who lost their ability to reset their body clock to certain stimuli.

Dr Biello said the findings were very worrying.

"There are a lot of people using ecstasy at the moment," she said.

"If they are losing their ability to adjust their body clock to certain signals, this could be very serious."

Stimulant

"The body clock, and sleep disorders resulting from its disruption are important in everyday life," Dr Biello said.

Sleep disorders are the biggest single reason for people over 65 contacting their GPs

Ecstasy is a stimulant which increases brain activity.

It is used by up to two million people in the UK who say it causes a sense of euphoria, followed by a feeling of calm.

They claim it makes them feel more sociable and increases their awareness of their surroundings.

It also affects body temperature.

Clubbers taking the drug can run the risk of dehydration, which may be fatal.

Dr Biello will present her findings to the Federation of European Neuroscience Societies on 28 June.

.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/803633.stm

 

[Worrgames]

Tek; do you consume caffeine regularly? I ask because I started drinking coffee daily when I started doing E to combat morning tiredness. I have been consuming caffeine daily since then, up until about 6 days ago, at which time I gave up all caffeine. I've actually noticed some improvements sleep wise. I fall asleep easier, and wake up feeling more restful. It's actually improving steadily each day since I gave it up.

I wasn't even a heavy caffeine consumer, just 1 cup of coffee (sometimes 2) in the mornings, and generally no caffeine in the afternoon or evenings. But studies have shown that even small amounts of caffeine can have strong effects on sleep patterns in some people.

Sometimes when we are caught up in thoughts of long term E effects, we neglect thinking about the many other factors that can be contributing that we actually have control over.

Also, Remember to ensure you're eating foods rich in Tryptophan. This can really impact your sleeping as well. Here is some information on what foods you can look for when trying to find high tryptophan sources.

"Tryptophan is a routine constituent of most protein-based foods or dietary proteins. It is particularly plentiful in chocolate, oats, bananas, durians, mangoes, dried dates, milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, red meat, eggs, fish, poultry, sesame, chickpeas, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, spirulina, and peanuts. It is also found in turkey at a level typical of poultry in general. Tryptophan occurs naturally in nearly all foods that contain protein, but in small amounts compared to the other essential amino acids. The following foods contain tryptophan largely; red meat, dairy products, nuts, seeds, bananas, soybeans and soy products, tuna, shellfish, and turkey." (Soruce: http://www.myfit.ca/foods_high_tryptophan.asp)


On another note, I bought some 5HTP today, and will report back on my experience with it in relation to my sleep quality. Maybe it could help you too.


I really hope you can find some improvement in your sleep quality!

 

[tek75]

Thanks Worrgames, sleep quality has improved a little over the last 2 years. I seem to have loads more of REM sleep than i remember having so loadsa of crazy dreams!

I do drink a couple of cups of coffee a day. I've regularly quit caffeine, the most was 3 weeks in a row a couple of months ago.

I did feel better for it but didn't notice much improvement on sleep though it did help a bit.

I used to take 5htp occasionally towards the end of my pill taking years and it did make me sleep like a baby! I have a feeling 5htp isn't good with prolonged usage, from what i've read anyway.
5htp makes me feel quite weird and had a mini panic attack last time i used so have avoided it since then. Definately affects people in different ways so worth trying for you.

Didn't mention this in my previous posts but does anyone suffer from facial sweating as a result of their previous mdma use? Seems to happen more in social situations and seems related to anxiety but is something that has never gone away for me. Have to avoid social situations where ever possible as is very obvious. I know a few people who've had this problem too.

Well i was thinking..... i've had so many great experiences rolling every week, however reckless i was, it was great every time without losing too much magic. Never really lost the magic in the 2 years i was caning it but i am paying the price now.
Take care people. Looks like ecstasy really can kick you hard in the ass if you ain't careful!

 

[Shambles]

^^ About the BBC article - I type slow

Don't know whether that would be an issue or not cos it's not something I've looked into, but you did notice that article is ten years old? On the same page there are links to stories including one suggesting that MDMA causes acne-type rashes on the face and neck which are a sign of liver damage and also states that: "Ecstasy, or MDMA, is a hybrid of the hallucinogenic mescaline and the stimulant amphetamine."

There's also one linked about "Liquid Ecstasy" that's either completely untrue, or more likely, the writer didn't know the difference between GHB and GBL and didn't check his facts. And there's the classic pics of "proof" of brain damage... until it was discovered that the good doctor who carried out the study had used methamphetamine instead of MDMA to get those pics which is kinda cheating a bit to say the least.

Don't know about the body clock theory cos I've not really heard much about it since, but there's clearly a lot of stuff that's been shown to be completely untrue (and stuff that has been proven more successfully, I presume) but newspaper articles are really not too reliable if written yesterday let alone when ten years have gone by and almost everything they're reporting turned out to be mistaken, false or falsified.

Same applies today, incidentally. Some of the stories they run are shockingly misinformed. Should be easy enough to see if this particular theory was one of the few from that time that have stood the test of time. Doesn't sound unreasonable but much of what was reported at the time was mistaken or even fabricated so worth following up on before putting too much faith in.

 

[Worrgames]

Tek; I haven't noticed much for social anxiety. I grew up being a quiet person, and if anything, ecstasy improved me socially. I am less timid in social situations now.

 

[bben]

^^ About the BBC article - I type slow

Don't know whether that would be an issue or not cos it's not something I've looked into, but you did notice that article is ten years old? On the same page there are links to stories including one suggesting that MDMA causes acne-type rashes on the face and neck which are a sign of liver damage and also states that: "Ecstasy, or MDMA, is a hybrid of the hallucinogenic mescaline and the stimulant amphetamine."

There's also one linked about "Liquid Ecstasy" that's either completely untrue, or more likely, the writer didn't know the difference between GHB and GBL and didn't check his facts. And there's the classic pics of "proof" of brain damage... until it was discovered that the good doctor who carried out the study had used methamphetamine instead of MDMA to get those pics which is kinda cheating a bit to say the least.

Don't know about the body clock theory cos I've not really heard much about it since, but there's clearly a lot of stuff that's been shown to be completely untrue (and stuff that has been proven more successfully, I presume) but newspaper articles are really not too reliable if written yesterday let alone when ten years have gone by and almost everything they're reporting turned out to be mistaken, false or falsified.

Same applies today, incidentally. Some of the stories they run are shockingly misinformed. Should be easy enough to see if this particular theory was one of the few from that time that have stood the test of time. Doesn't sound unreasonable but much of what was reported at the time was mistaken or even fabricated so worth following up on before putting too much faith in.

Those links have nothing to do with this article, nor do they discredit it. Your arguments are a completely flawed attempt to discount a valid article based on the fact that there are other stories linked to it you dont agree with. Thats fine.

Of course theres no proof this article is valid, just like theres no proof for any article about MDMA really, at least not concrete.

The fact that serotonin does govern sleep-wake cycles gives much credence to the article. How many mdma users complain about insomnia, and for some it is lasting. So anecdotal evidence would also show this as at least plausible. Not too mention if a neurologist is saying this, there might be something to it.

Ive heard plenty of aguments touting MDMA's safety that have no more basis than this article i posted, often less.

Even if it is found to untrue, it is something people should be aware of as well as something to watch out for.

I could waste more of my time with this, but i wont. Take the article for what it is, but dont say its any more bullshit of an article than 99 percent of mdma research.