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Ecstasy and Christianity

ro4eva

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,881
Apologies in advance if I missed something in the "read here first" thread as this is my first time ever visiting P & S.

I was raised as a Pentecostal Christian, and I do believe in God (although I've had my doubts and bouts of confusion, I'll admit). No, I don't know why He lets children starve to death in Africa.

My question, for any other Christian (doesn't matter your denomination - I do not and refuse to believe that only Pentecostals will go to heaven) is this:

Do you believe it's a sin to use a recreational psychotropic drug - in this case, mdma - as a means of attempting to better yourself (or self-medicate if you will)?

I ask because, out of all the substances I've used and abused (and I did everything except for these "new" RCs or bath salts, such as mephedrone), mdma is the only one I've never regretted using because I honestly feel it made me a better person.

I was an antisocial kid for the longest time before using ecstasy and - even though it may be neurotoxic - all it took was one time, one dose to permanently change my attitude. That's how a profound of an effect it's had on me.

Reason I'm asking this question here is because I already tried asking it somewhere more conservative and it didn't go well. I'm hoping I can get a 2nd opinion per say.
 
1 Corinthians 6:19-20; NKJV [emphasis mine]

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

This verse is often read as an injunction against self-injurious behavior, like, for instance, deliberately ingesting neurotoxins for an ethically neutral purpose.

Pretty much all of Psalm 139 can be read as an exhortation of Yahweh's purported mad engineering skillz, and can easily be construed as reading, "As the omniscient, omnipotent creator of all things, God knows wayyy better than you do about whether any part of your body should be tweaked/fucked with in any way (probably excepting necessary medical intervention, of course). To do so may very well be an affront to his intended design, the grandeur of which you can only begin to comprehend."

Truth be told, the Bible doesn't have that much to say about drug use apart from the obvious attendant vices of addiction and sinful behavior incurred thereby. In other words, drug use per se wasn't hot enough a topic for Yahweh and his nomadic cult to get all 'fire and brimstone' about in His sacred books. However, all Bible verses and conservatism aside, I earnestly suggest that you consider why exactly you would turn to the Christian deity in particular for insight on any practical issue, ever. Why not Zeus? Why not Mithra? Why not Baal? Why not Satan? I say this not as a frothy-mouthed internet crusader for so-called 'secular humanism,' but as someone who would genuinely prefer to hear that your apparently benign, helpful pastime wasn't derailed for abstract reasons.
 
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However, all Bible verses and conservatism aside, I earnestly suggest that you consider why exactly you would turn to the Christian deity in particular for insight on any practical issue, ever. Why not Zeus? Why not Mithra? Why not Baal? Why not Satan? I say this not as an frothy-mouthed internet crusader of so-called 'secular humanism,' but as someone who would genuinely prefer to hear that your apparently benign, helpful pastime wasn't derailed for abstract reasons.

That's a fair question.

There's a few reasons.

1) Being raised as a Christian, in a Christian home, setting, mindset, etc; one of the first things I remember learning - at a very young age - was the Ten Commandments; and that if you're looking for something in the Bible to guide you in the choices you make in your life, the lifestyle you should live; look no further than the Ten Commandments - With the first being "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

2) Too many scientifically inexplicable phenomena (or miracles) have occurred among myself, my parents and my siblings (and even my kin; but I'd rather leave them out of this) for it to all be a coincidence.

- For one; my mother, many many years ago was diagnosed via MRI with a malignant brain tumor after most of it (as much as they could remove, meaning there was still enough in there to quickly spread to adjacent organs and eventually kill her) was surgically removed and confirmed as malignant via a biopsy. Of note - the surgeon had to cut through a part of the ophthalmic nerve to remove the tumor, which resulted in my mother being unable to blink anymore with her left eyelid. We were told that she's gonna have to start chemotherapy, that it would prolong her life to about six months, and that we need to start preparing for a funeral. Well, my father - in desperation for a miracle - asked everyone we knew to pray for her. Soon afterwards, we got a call from a family friend in Anaheim, California. She said - in essence - that God has listened to the prayers of everyone praying for my mother, and that she has been healed. My father was skeptical, but noticed the next morning that my mother could inexplicably blink again with her left eyelid. He notified our family doctor, who quickly set up a referral for another MRI. A few days after having completed the MRI, my mother received a call from our family doctor and he said, "I don't know what happened, I don't know how to explain this, I don't understand - Mrs. ******, what remained of your tumor has disappeared."

- For two; my oldest brother, was diagnosed with an enlarged heart when he was 6 years old. Doctors stated he'd be dead by the age of 20 at the most. He's now happily married at 37 years of age, works full-time and his heart is functioning normally.

- For three; in 2005, my mother, while in Europe visiting family, received a call from another friend of the family (who lives in Detroit). She told my mother to immediately start praying because today is the day that I'm gonna die. Soon after (that same day), I overdosed on a combination of meth, booze and mdma, but survived.

Other things have happened as well, but yeah...

3) Bearing in mind what I wrote above, I fear God too much (especially after what He's done for us) to convert to another religion, although I won't lie, I have thought about it.

Regardless of what I wrote above, just because I was raised this way, and believe in miracles, doesn't mean I don't have my share of questions (and aspects of my religion which frustrate me). For example:

- Why did God give us the natural urge to copulate, for me to find a female's body extremely attractive, only for it to be considered adultery to even jack off?

- Why does God let innocent kids - many who've never even had a chance to learn of Him - starve to death?

- If the earth is only really about 6000 years old, where in that timeline did dinosaurs exist?

- If God created the earth and everything in/on it, surely he created psychoactive plants - such as cannabis and the opium poppy - for the purpose of using them, no?

I got a bunch of other ones but I can't remember them.

There's other things I struggle to understand such as the belief of some that it is necessary to be baptized with the holy spirit to go to heaven.

By the way, in 1 Timothy 5:23, it says, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

So I wonder, could I, "Take no longer Wellbutrin XL, but use a little 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine for thy mind's sake and thine often anti-social thick-headedness?"
 
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Again, as a disclaimer, I'm not trying to proselytize as such nor debate for sport here; so I implore to extend your understanding if I seem to rhetorically overstep my bounds.

what remained of your tumor has disappeared...Doctors stated he'd be dead by the age of 20 at the most. He's now happily married at 37 years of age...

At the risk of sounding deliberately offensive and/or belligerent, I was wondering, as I read the first two of these 'miraculous' accounts, whether you've considered the possibility that these admittedly sensational cases are simply reflective of two very real, well-documented, but nevertheless easily overlooked and widely misunderstood facts of life, one pertaining exclusively to modern medicine - the phenomenon of clinical error; the other involving all kinds of causally determined events - the concept of correlation and the questionable cause; Please permit me a couple narratives of my own:

1) Medical Error My grandfather was diagnosed with cancer at ~60 years of age. His prognosis was declared fair-to-optimistic by his oncologist at Johns Hopkins (which choice of institution makes me feel reasonably safe in assuming that he was not under the care of a quack). After a handful of surgeries and multiple rounds of chemo (including a last-ditch treatment which was, at the time, experimental, later approved by dint of its efficacy) he died an excruciatingly painful, utterly ruinous death a mere two years later. Who do you think was to blame? Yahweh? I'll come back to Him. His clinicians? Perhaps, but in all probability, any error on their part was likely to be found in the original prognosis, not the treatment protocols. Or was it just the frequently arcane, stochastic nature of human pathologies that really got him in the end?

My overall impression when reading these two stories isn't one of rapturous awe and dumbfoundedness in the face of miraculous (i.e. utterly implausible by currently accepted standards) intervention, but rather of a simple heathen's condolences for you and your family, and a certain bittersweet comfort in the awareness that these sorts of regrettable things really do sometimes happen, for a multitude of non-supernatural reasons, foremost of which I suspect to be simple human error and the strangeness of human biology, much of which remains poorly understood.

my mother...received a call from another friend of the family...immediately start praying because today is the day that I'm gonna die. Soon after (that same day), I overdosed...but survived.

2) Correlation In the fifth grade, I was assigned a class project that involved the assimilation of large quantities (for a fifth grader) of information to be contributed to my group's overall project which was more expansive in scope. This project was to contribute to a substantial portion of my overall grade in the class, which grade already left something to be desired - an oddity for me. As I'm sure you can understand, I was seized by terror the night before the project was due when I realized that the entire enterprise had completely slipped my mind for the past two weeks that I'd been given to complete it. Being a distraught child with a religious grandmother who made sure to expose me regularly to her beliefs, I decided, ever the swindler, "Fuck it, I'll pray; God, if you grant my wish/answer my prayer, I'll do X, Y, and Z and love you forever," or something to that effect. So I prayed. The next day, my teacher regretfully informed us all that we would not be presenting the projects that day, because an important guest speaker had, at the very last minute, been squeezed into the roster. It was a Friday. So, fortuitously, I gained an entire weekend to complete my assigned task, in which time I accomplished such, and received a B. As a ten-year-old, I understandably walked away from this scenario with my mind buzzing over its potential theological implications. But now, as an adult, I look back upon this story not as a proof nor an argument for anything more or less than the twee mechanisms by which a typical child's mind works under pressure. As far as I can tell, the takeaway here is this: What do you think was the ultimate cause of my fortuitous break? Perhaps it was Yahweh. Or maybe, one time in many, some people just get lucky.

Regarding the Book of the Law:

and that if you're looking for something in the Bible to guide you in the choices you make in your life, the lifestyle you should live; look no further than the Ten Commandments - With the first being "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Religious people often appeal to the Ten Commandments as though these strictures possess some transcendent moral wisdom (irrespective of their origin) far above and beyond what any mortal with a conscience could possibly drum up on a lazy afternoon. However, I'm afraid that I'm not nearly as smitten by these injunctions as are you. Where are the straightforward, baldfaced proscriptions against torture? Democide? Rape? Child molestation? Spousal abuse? Blackmail? There are arguably many, many more terrible (or at least comparably awful) acts that I could inflict upon another human being than killing them, lying to them, stealing from them, or coveting their respective ox or ass. And, when considered this way, don't these supposed moral absolutes seem suspiciously crude, if not downright babyish, to have been decreed by the supreme mover Himself? If, by most people's lights, even sinful, mortal PA could fathom an intuitively better (i.e., more complete, more resonant with past experience/gut feeling) moral code, what does this tell you about the true origins of the rules by which you claim to live? Indeed, if such a thought process presented some serious discomfort, one could always fall back on the whole 'mysterious ways, He knows better than you' schtick. But I'm sure you can see how hopelessly circular such a line of reasoning will quickly become.

The final straw for me, as a 12-13-year-old pre-adolescent trying to find some sort of bedrock upon which to predicate my worldview, was, after all the abstract reasoning regarding ontological 'evidence' and theodicy, the bluntly facile question of whether, in the final dispassionate analysis, what I was reading (New Testament, Talmud, etc.) patently and unambiguously read as the irrefutable, supremely perfect word of an omniscient deity; or if it seemed a whole lot more like something that was just made up and written down by a bunch of Bronze Age scribes and priests. If the latter, wouldn't the incidence of innumerable other, mutually incompatible faiths be easily explained?
 
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More relevant to the OP: consider the Bible's stance on wine, which was the only common recreational drug back then. Sure, there are many screeds against drunkenness, both directly and by example--but no outright prohibition, certainly not when wine was simply an adjunct to meals (e.g., water into wine). The Jews who wrote most of the Bible got drunk enough (and still do; hell, look at Purim ;) ).
 
By the way, in 1 Timothy 5:23, it says, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

So I wonder, could I, "Take no longer Wellbutrin XL, but use a little 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine for thy mind's sake and thine often anti-social thick-headedness?"

=D This is why I'm not quite sure how to address you. You clearly possess some capacity to appreciate irony and to think logically, as evidenced by the above.

At any rate, this sort of 'bargaining with God' mentality is so cross-denominationally rampant among Christians that I suspect that this trend alone (and its tacit -and not-so-tacit endorsement by the clergy over the past two thousand years) has been enough to turn off a lot of people right off the bat. It seems to me that the 'bargaining mentality' approaches the issues of sin and Almighty/Papal condemnation with all the sly cynicism and mealy-mouthed hypocrisy of the huckster or, dare I say it, the ironical skepticism of the non-believer. Now, by my lights, this should come as no surprise. But I have to wonder: If you're aware of serious discrepancies existing within and between the various books of the Christian bible, in addition to all your other preoccupations (child suffering, for instance) what's stopping you from chucking the thing wholesale? A handful glorified coincidences? Even if we were to concede that they weren't coincidences, wouldn't the sheer volume of 'evidences against/inconsistencies within' overwhelmingly outnumber the few comparatively paltry (though certainly personally meaningful) 'vague suggestions of/support for'? In the grander scheme of things, what comes off to you as more cosmically significant re. the existence of an infinitely wise, benevolent creator - the horrible suffering and untimely deaths of untold billions of innocent children, or a couple medical marvels surrounding a few people who happen to pray?
 
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More relevant to the OP: consider the Bible's stance on wine, which was the only common recreational drug back then. Sure, there are many screeds against drunkenness, both directly and by example

That was already addressed in post #2. The ambiguity re. wine is pretty unsurprising when you consider the profusion of winos and decadent aesthetes in positions of power in the eras leading up to and including the canonical selection of the books that were to be accepted, excluded, or interpolated. I have a sneaking suspicion that any accepted text that lashed out too harshly or specifically against the Roman's DOC was dealt with accordingly.
 
no it is not a sin to use drugs.

drugs will expose other realities, but to use to avoid your own reality bypassing your specific place in the reality, seems counter productive to existence.

to depend on an external source for a sense self; to not be oneself except with an aid; to transcend or displace oneself into an object of desire, effectively gives credit to a that object for causing the pleasure and esteem, rather then the credit being given to where it originated from and is most deserving; from and to you yourself.

& this sort of sinning, is maybe the root of all sins.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................!
 
I believe God is big enough to see the shades of grey...I've often prayed over this and came back with the notion that we're judged on our intentions. If taking mdma helps you relate to people better then it's a positive thing. I also believe the law can be an arse. There's also the notion of moderation. If not overdone, I believe pure mdma is not that harmful. :)
 
I was wondering, as I read the first two of these 'miraculous' accounts, whether you've considered the possibility that these admittedly sensational cases are simply reflective of two very real, well-documented, but nevertheless easily overlooked and widely misunderstood facts of life, one pertaining exclusively to modern medicine - the phenomenon of clinical error;

I have, for decades. (edit - and at times, it still crosses my mind, especially when I'm frustrated).

My overall impression when reading these two stories isn't one of rapturous awe and dumbfoundedness in the face of miraculous (i.e. utterly implausible by currently accepted standards) intervention, but rather of a simple heathen's condolences for you and your family, and a certain bittersweet comfort in the awareness that these sorts of regrettable things really do sometimes happen, for a multitude of non-supernatural reasons, foremost of which I suspect to be simple human error and the strangeness of human biology, much of which remains poorly understood.

Noted

So I prayed. The next day, my teacher regretfully informed us all that we would not be presenting the projects that day, because an important guest speaker had, at the very last minute, been squeezed into the roster. It was a Friday. So, fortuitously, I gained an entire weekend to complete my assigned task, in which time I accomplished such, and received a B. As a ten-year-old, I understandably walked away from this scenario with my mind buzzing over its potential theological implications. But now, as an adult, I look back upon this story not as a proof nor an argument for anything more or less than the twee mechanisms by which a typical child's mind works under pressure. As far as I can tell, the takeaway here is this: What do you think was the ultimate cause of my fortuitous break? Perhaps it was Yahweh. Or maybe, one time in many, some people just get lucky.

Maybe someone up there - Yahweh as you refer to Him - did listen to your prayers. Maybe the tooth fairy heard your prayers and promptly told your teacher to squeeze a guest into your roster.

Religious people often appeal to the Ten Commandments as though these strictures possess some transcendent moral wisdom (irrespective of their origin) far above and beyond what any mortal with a conscience could possibly drum up on a lazy afternoon.

Of course Christians refer to it - it's considered the word of God. Just because it may not use long, complex words doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered as such for those who choose to follow it, who choose to believe in it.

Where are the straightforward, baldfaced proscriptions against torture? Democide? Rape? Child molestation? Spousal abuse? Blackmail?

Good question, but you're asking the wrong person. I'm an amateur.

--------------------

I get it, you don't believe in Yahweh. And I'm not here to debate that or try to convince you or anyone else otherwise. I was hoping to discuss the original post's topic.

Out of the estimated 38,000 Christian denominations which currently exist, I don't know if I'd fit into any of them because I - for one - have wanted drugs to be legalized ever since I can remember and I partake in certain things which - although I don't feel they're "bad" - I'd wager many Christians would feel uncomfortable associating with. Plus I don't know the Bible very well, so if you'd ask me to quote something, chances are I wouldn't be able to without the help of my trusty search engine, Google.
 
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I believe God is big enough to see the shades of grey...I've often prayed over this and came back with the notion that we're judged on our intentions. If taking mdma helps you relate to people better then it's a positive thing. I also believe the law can be an arse. There's also the notion of moderation. If not overdone, I believe pure mdma is not that harmful. :)

not that harmful?

not this harmful *insert karate chop*
 
=D This is why I'm not quite sure how to address you. You clearly possess some capacity to appreciate irony and to think logically, as evidenced by the above.

That's what my siblings hate about me, it seems.
 
no it is not a sin to use drugs.

drugs will expose other realities, but to use to avoid your own reality bypassing your specific place in the reality, seems counter productive to existence.

to depend on an external source for a sense self; to not be oneself except with an aid; to transcend or displace oneself into an object of desire, effectively gives credit to a that object for causing the pleasure and esteem, rather then the credit being given to where it originated from and is most deserving; from and to you yourself.

& this sort of sinning, is maybe the root of all sins.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................!

Sincerely appreciate the assessment, thank you.

I believe God is big enough to see the shades of grey...I've often prayed over this and came back with the notion that we're judged on our intentions. If taking mdma helps you relate to people better then it's a positive thing. I also believe the law can be an arse. There's also the notion of moderation. If not overdone, I believe pure mdma is not that harmful. :)

This is exactly how I think about it. Glad I'm not the only one.
 
Yahweh as you refer to Him

Not I, sir. The very Semitic tribe that originally thought up this particular deity saw it fit to call him thus.

Plus I don't know the Bible very well, so if you'd ask me to quote something, chances are I wouldn't be able to without the help of my trusty search engine, Google.

But, then...what's with all this talk about Abrahamic law (Ten Commandments, etc.) and 'the word of God' and all that? If a garden-variety atheist on the internet knows more Holy writ than the devout, I don't like to think of what this fact implies re. Christianity as an institution. As if it could get any worse.

Maybe someone up there...did listen to your prayers.

But what legitimately convincing reason do actually I have to believe such a thing? A few ancient manuscripts saying things that, as per the average layman's worldview, just ain't so? I just cannot/would not make that drastic leap for anything less than, well, something really convincing. Otherwise it just seems like a sideshow trick with mirrors crossed with a silly huckster's gambit for my 'immortal soul' (which is what, again?).

Of course Christians refer to it - it's considered the word of God. Just because it may not use long, complex words doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered as such for those who choose to follow it, who choose to believe in it.

That wasn't my point, really. No ethical system need rely upon polysyllabic rants to get the key points across. And as you've acknowledged, the key issues raised by Yahweh in his Top Ten Moral Decrees of All Time are pretty underwhelming, especially considering the supposed source. Dissolving this predicament in faith, 'mysterious ways,' and 'this is what I choose to believe' is just a disingenuous way to end the conversation on rigid terms.

And I'm not here to debate that or try to convince you or anyone else otherwise. I was hoping to discuss the original post's topic.

Fair enough. The only trouble though, is that since Bluelight doesn't have a Theology and the Occult subforum, you're bound to encounter some measure of confrontation among people who come around here seeking out intellectual discussion and critical thought. Additionally, asking what Christianity/God proper has to say about one topic or another will invariably produce some degree of internal inconsistency, since such things are rampant in religious texts - and other than discussion of the Bible itself, I don't know what anyone has to offer other than mere mortal speculation as to the unfathomable workings of the Mind of God.

I believe God is big enough to see the shades of grey

Not only can He see in shades of grey, He can apparently see in black, white, and five other shades all at once, depending upon which texts you consult. It's enough to make a true believer dizzy.
 
If God was willing to turn a blind eye to your mother's doctors using all manner of neurotoxic drugs during her operation then I'm sure he would be fine with you experimenting with MDMA. You your self admit it makes you a better person, then be happy in the thought that at worse you might have to spend eternity in hell with many more wonderful people who like you have experienced the empathy, love and joy that this drug brings to life.
 
Fair enough.

Stop. Right there. That's all you need to say.

The only trouble though, is that since Bluelight doesn't have a Theology and the Occult subforum, you're bound to encounter some measure of confrontation among people who come around here seeking out intellectual discussion and critical thought.

Bound? Do you mean that you couldn't possibly restrain yourself from taking the guy to task for his belief system?

Based on the link in your signature, I assume you endorse the guidelines for this forum that Jamshyd and I drew up for this forum a couple years ago, as they stand. Correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe you interpret them differently, but we wrote the guidelines the way we did for the sake of people like this thread's OP, who wanted to discuss issues within their worldview or belief system without having to defend why they even have that worldview in the first place. We found that when we enforced that rule, this forum just became a broader and more welcoming place, and lost a lot of its prior reputation for petty pissing contests and elitism. Don't agree with the beliefs of someone who started a thread, and clearly isn't here to have their beliefs challenged? Don't post in it. Is that so hard?

Additionally, asking what Christianity/God proper has to say about one topic or another will invariably produce some degree of internal inconsistency, since such things are rampant in religious texts - and other than discussion of the Bible itself, I don't know what anyone has to offer other than mere mortal speculation as to the unfathomable workings of the Mind of God.

Well, how about hearing from different Christians with different interpretations of Jesus' message with regards to drugs, and letting the OP decide for himself which commentary squares best with his own faith and principles? Who says there needs to be consensus, or that Christians need to be a unified front in order for any of them to have anything to offer?

It would make me very unhappy to see this forum degenerate into a battleground, where anyone who expresses a serious belief that isn't in line with up-to-date Analytical philosophy and the secular rationalist worldview will be made to feel uncomfortable.
 
Stop. Right there. That's all you need to say.

Excuse me?

Who says there needs to be consensus, or that Christians need to be a unified front in order for any of them to have anything to offer?

I sure didn't.

It would make me very unhappy to see this forum degenerate into a battleground, where anyone who expresses a serious belief that isn't in line with up-to-date Analytical philosophy and the secular rationalist worldview will be made to feel uncomfortable.

I don't consider myself to be a secular rationalist, nor an ideologue of any kind, for that matter. And this isn't a battle. It's a perfectly civil discussion.

Bound? Do you mean that you couldn't possibly restrain yourself from taking the guy to task for his belief system?

'Taking to task?' Personally knowing therapeutic multiple MDMA users as I do, I actually do have some serious qualms about about someone reconsidering the use of a current (purportedly helpful) psychotherapuetic regimen for abstract reasons. You apparently have no such preoccupations.

Anyway, let's break this down: My last line of text was directed at someone else; the first line pertained exclusively to my preference of nomenclature; the second referred strictly to rote literary knowledge, not a personal system of belief; the third was a personal expression of skepticism - I left it at that; and the fourth was a mere disclaimer that you've apparently appropriated as an indication of my brutish ideological chauvinism.

Based on the link in your signature, I assume you endorse the guidelines for this forum that Jamshyd and I drew up for this forum a couple years ago, as they stand. Correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe you interpret them differently

Apparently, we sure do. From what I'm reading, I haven't violated nor vaguely transgressed upon a single one of those rules. He said he didn't want a debate. Midpost, I quoted his comment, replied in the affirmative, and went on to inform him that someone replying along the lines of "I don't think that God has much to say upon the matter because X," "God has nothing to say about it because he doesn't exist," etc. is not (and has never been, as I'm aware) out of the ordinary around here and is to be reasonably expected (outside of flaming/abuse, of course - I presumed that this went without saying). Respect of belief and polite disagreement are not incompatible, especially not in a subforum such as this one. Get off your high horse, if you please.
 
But, then...what's with all this talk about Abrahamic law (Ten Commandments, etc.) and 'the word of God' and all that? If a garden-variety atheist on the internet knows more Holy writ than the devout, I don't like to think of what this fact implies re. Christianity as an institution. As if it could get any worse.

Well I was trying to answer/reply to what I could, but I admit, I'm not very good at it. I'm sure there's countless athiests who know the Bible ten times better than I do.

But what legitimately convincing reason do actually I have to believe such a thing? A few ancient manuscripts saying things that, as per the average layman's worldview, just ain't so? I just cannot/would not make that drastic leap for anything less than, well, something really convincing. Otherwise it just seems like a sideshow trick with mirrors crossed with a silly huckster's gambit for my 'immortal soul' (which is what, again?).

Is this the part where I say that God works in mysterious ways?

That wasn't my point, really. No ethical system need rely upon polysyllabic rants to get the key points across. And as you've acknowledged, the key issues raised by Yahweh in his Top Ten Moral Decrees of All Time are pretty underwhelming, especially considering the supposed source. Dissolving this predicament in faith, 'mysterious ways,' and 'this is what I choose to believe' is just a disingenuous way to end the conversation on rigid terms.

I don't think they're supposed to be overwhelming. Just some basic rules to try to follow if you choose to believe in Him.

Fair enough. The only trouble though, is that since Bluelight doesn't have a Theology and the Occult subforum, you're bound to encounter some measure of confrontation among people who come around here seeking out intellectual discussion and critical thought. Additionally, asking what Christianity/God proper has to say about one topic or another will invariably produce some degree of internal inconsistency, since such things are rampant in religious texts - and other than discussion of the Bible itself, I don't know what anyone has to offer other than mere mortal speculation as to the unfathomable workings of the Mind of God.

I was just hoping to discuss the topic with other people who choose to believe in God/Yahweh, but use drugs without having to explain why I believe in Him and not someone or something else.

--------------------

Also, I believe MyDoorsAreOpen was referring to rule #4 (about being taken to task) where it states:

On the other hand, posters have the right to refuse being taken to task for their stated points of view, if they so choose. Keep in mind that some people post here seeking comfort, inspiration, and the company of like minds, rather than debate. If you would like to not be taken to task, just politely state that you are not looking to debate (which I did, I think?), and leave it at that.
 
'Taking to task?' Personally knowing therapeutic multiple MDMA users as I do, I actually do have some serious qualms about about someone reconsidering the use of a current (purportedly helpful) psychotherapuetic regimen for abstract reasons. You apparently have no such preoccupations.

I also have a lot of experience with MDMA and people who've used it, including for therapeutic reasons. I have definitely met people who don't / didn't stand to get much long term therapeutic benefit from the drug, due to various circumstances about their lives.

Anyway, let's break this down: My last line of text was directed at someone else; the first line pertained exclusively to my preference of nomenclature; the second referred strictly to rote literary knowledge, not a personal system of belief; the third was a personal expression of skepticism - I left it at that; and the fourth was a mere disclaimer that you've apparently appropriated as an indication of my brutish ideological chauvinism.

I'll break it down even simpler. You clearly enjoy putting people on the spot who say things you don't see much wisdom in. I think that approach builds barriers, not bridges. I don't know about you, but I've been humbled many times by people who said things that seemed cryptic or odd at first, but after a bit of contemplation and perspective-shifting, actually contained great insight.

He said he didn't want a debate. Midpost, I quoted his comment, replied in the affirmative, and went on to inform him that someone replying along the lines of "I don't think that God has much to say upon the matter because X," "God has nothing to say about it because he doesn't exist," etc. is not (and has never been, as I'm aware) out of the ordinary around here and is to be reasonably expected (outside of flaming/abuse, of course - I presumed that this went without saying).

But dude, that's just it -- why should this kind of response be expected and ordinary here? To say any of the things you just put in quotes to someone in real life would be considered inflammatory, and would make the recipient of such a comment feel rebuffed, disrespected, and mistrusting of the replier.

Drug users who are not unbelievers deserve a place on the Internet's greatest English-language drug forum where they can discuss their beliefs (and drug use within the context of their beliefs) without having their beliefs judged.

Respect of belief and polite disagreement are not incompatible, especially not in a subforum such as this one. Get off your high horse, if you please.

This is an issue I feel very strongly about. I'm sorry if I come across to you as arrogant, but I'll stand by what I said.
 
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