Heroin dope, how bad?

[rave23]

Time to digress a bit...

I was using opitates (mostly codeine, it's cheap, and addiction to it is a joke compare to, say hydromorphone) for the better part of 5 years. I managed to walk on razors edge, and never completley become physically dependent. Sure, i was mentally addicted, where i needed it to feel good, but without it, i wouldn't have went into physical WD's.
I was snorting, swallowing, smoking and plugging any opiate i could get my hands on, save for heroin. I was painfully trying to enjoy opiates while not becoming addicted. Yah right. One day, my friend dropped 10 15mg IR morphines in my hand, and i made a bad decision.

I reasoned in my head, that the only way i get anything worthwhile out of these is either shooting, or plugging. After i plugged 60 mg of morphine, and it felt no stronger than 400mg of codeine to me, i decided to shoot the next one. just once, ya know, to see what that was all about.

I abstained from opiates for two days prior to this, and i started feeling a mild, queasy sickness, probably related to me putting upwards of 400mg of codeine up my ass every day. At that time, i should have pulled the breaks, took a step back and say "Hey rave, what the fuck are you doing here?". I prepped a 15 mg for injection using the safest methods available to me, spend an hour pondering weather i wanted to do this or not, but in the end, the needle went into my arm, and the plunger hit the bottom.

From that point on... things were not the same. The feeling of any opiate crawling up your arm, invading your CNS and rushing to your head is... Truly Divine. Everything else feels like peanuts in comparison. And that was the problem. I have never felt this good from ingesting any other opiate again. Now, when i snort 16mgs of hydromorphone, it's like starting to whack off, and just before you cum you stop and pack up and do something else. That feel is missing, no matter how much opiates i do, unless i shoot em. I hope i can somehow explain this to you...

I didn't shoot up again after this one time for months, but i knew that one time put everything else into perspective. I tried my hardest to forget about it, but every time i do opiates now, there is a voice in my head that says "really, you wanna waste this shit by snorting it? You know shooting is that much better..... And i struggle with it. 99% of the time, i can manage and ignore it, but the other 1%, i just give in, throw a Dilaudid in a spoon, and slam that bitch. And right after, i wish i wouldn't have done this.

I can maintain, but my days are numbered. One wrong decision, one careless thought, one unforeseen event, and i will convert to shooting up completely. And we all know where this leads.
So yes, i can wholeheartedly advise, without any doubt in my mind, the one true thing my drug use has thought me, don't inject. EVER. Because nothing will ever compare to it after.

If i could go back now, and give myself from 5 years ago advise, here is what i would say:
"After you got out of that scooter accident, don't ask what drugs they gave you in the ER. You must not know.
Stay away from opiates, because at first, they seem so lovely, but by the time you find out what true burden they really are, it's too late. Just save yourself a lot of misery and never touch opiates. I know you have pain, but look for other ways to alleviate it.
Stick to smoking weed and getting drunk with your friends on the weekend, you will be happier that way"

 

[coojibug]

bro, you dont even know what youre getting into. 30mg of oxycodone wouldnt even make my nuts itch. youre FAR from the point when people switch to heroin. turn yourself around while you can. if 30mg makes you NOD. heroin is way too strong for you. no amount of oxy can make me nod, but its like a stimulant to me. STAY AWAY from the H man...

EXACTLY what I was gonna say. Move up the chain a little befpre you switch to H. If a 30 makes you nod then a shot of raw will likely take you out of this world. Move up the chain first. You still have countless stronger pharms to go through. Opana, Dilaudid, etc. Not to mention PODS. Oh and heroin is called boy. Girl is cocaine. You might plan on using "just on the weekends" but tolerance is a funny thing my friend. You will slowly start noticing you don't feel as well as you once did, so you uo the dose. Then ya feel like shit Monday. Gotta get straight for work right??? C'mon man. What do you wanna hear. Heroin is good? Stop now or 10 years from now you will look back with nothing but regret. I know you won't listen. I didn't. Thought I was waaay to smart for that. But its a trap door

Another thing. Do you know any part-time heroin users?

Once you start the game you can never get ahead. You can't stop playing the game. You can't even break even.
Think twice.

 

[brooklynn85]

Well I've heard people can become just as much addicted to it by snorting it. I IV'd it.. you never know..it's definitely not a recreational drug. Not like snorting a few lines of coke every now and then at a party ya know? I'd like to say shoot for once a week..but honestly that's how I started..if you like it enough..and I'm sure that you will..you might start wanting it every couple of days..and then its just over. Good luck to ya.

 

[verso]

Guess I'll be the dissenting voice: How bad is heroin? No worse than alcohol, really.

Something like 16% of all people who drink alcohol become alcoholics, and approximately 23% of all people who do dope become addicts. So, that's not exactly a significant difference in terms of probability.

Living as either one, an alcoholic or a drug addict, has got to be miserable existence. But hell, I think I'd prefer to be a heroin alcoholic. Cirrhosis, man...

 

[Ayrios]

Guess I'll be the dissenting voice: How bad is heroin? No worse than alcohol, really.

Something like 16% of all people who drink alcohol become alcoholics, and approximately 23% of all people who do dope become addicts. So, that's not exactly a significant difference in terms of probability.

Living as either one, an alcoholic or a drug addict, has got to be miserable existence. But hell, I think I'd prefer to be a heroin alcoholic. Cirrhosis, man...

I agree, I'd much rather be a heroin addict than an alcoholic, but IMO those statistics are slightly skewed by what I know as the 'internet user factor' (there's no doubt a better term for the same thing in statistics that I am not aware of ). For most of the 1990s, you could assume the people you were chatting on the internet with weren't 'typical people' or a fair representation of their geographical demographic because the people who could afford to pay $2000+ for a computer, $20 per month and $1-5 per hour for internet access were probably going to be relatively well off economically, and they were likely someone affluent enough to buy a computer and subscribe to costly internet access which lacked the mainstream appeal it does today, and likewise these people were going to be a little more intelligent, a little more exceptional than would be a random sampling of people pulled from the aisles of a grocery store.

It's the same way with people who have used heroin and become addicted vs people who have used alcohol and become addicted. The people who have used heroin have probably done quite a bit of other drugs, had an interest that led them to it, and are a little 'smarter' about drug use, yet according to your stats they still become addicted at a greater rate. The average person who has consumed alcohol (90%+ of the population in the West before they reach the legal age? ) is a less experienced user of drugs, has less types of drug addictions to compare and determine just how worthwhile it is or isn't to become an alcoholic, and is in my opinion more likely to become an alcoholic than our average person who has tried heroin (who has, almost certainly, tried alcohol as well).

Basically what I'm saying is if a fair sampling of people who have experienced both alcohol and heroin was taken (according to my internet rule (which is terribly outdated now that everyone is online! ), the people who have tried heroin here are the more affluent, knowledgeable early adopters of computers), I think you'd find an even lesser percentage of imbibers becoming alcoholics. That leads me to conclude that heroin is even more objectively addictive than alcohol than even those statistics indicate.

I'd still rather be, know, live with, or love a heroin addict than an alcoholic It's certainly healthier on the body and mind as a whole.

 

[docs - docs]

Man is the internet ever polluted. There should be a thread where people who've suffered the ravages of addiction can tell their story and warn the naive, and another thread where people who don't use needles can put all of their opinions together to try push their plugging agenda. I can't think of how many simple questions, on this site and others, are answered with pages of unsolicited opinions or flat out condemnations of what the OP is trying to accomplish. It just isn't productive.

If someone has gone to the trouble of signing up here, and asking questions like the OP, what do you think his chances are of being persuaded to stop just by horror stories? I mean, I don't think I ever read "heroin saved my life! got my affairs in order, got me a girl now and a wicked job- all thanks to H! gotta try it!" so chances are these stories are nothing he hasn't already seen, and has decided to ignore... just like all of you did. Would it have stopped you if you were warned?

I'm not saying any of you are wrong, I'm just saying that its not relevant from a HR standpoint to just rail on people for a choice that they've already obviously made. Now, if some kid you actually KNOW comes up to you and says he's thinking about it, that's when you tell your story, that's when you help him get help. Your reach on here is very limited and opportunity wasted by flogging the dead horse... ha a pun!

Just answer the questions with the perspective "what do I know that might help this person to do this as safely as possible?" and we can stop filling up pages and pages of messages repeated ad nauseum. People are gonna do heroin and they're gonna shoot it; lets work as a community towards encouraging treatment, and safe needle use.

And please, If you don't use needles because you're somehow above that, keep your arrogance about IV use to yourself- you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Its just as bad as having a hundred replies from anti-drug types telling you to "just say no". Annoying, isn't it?

 

[docs - docs]

For the OP - withdrawal seems to get worse and more frequent each time you go back. The standard line at the HR clinic where I've worked (to avoid spiraling out of control) is "MAX 3 days on, 4 days off". This does not mean that in those 4 days you wont experience withdrawal, or that your tolerance wont build, it just means that using more often than that is the breakpoint for complete dependence. In terms of acute withdrawal, it depends on the person. I've known people who are an emotional mess after a single day of use, and others who can go for a week and stop with just minor shits etc. Either way, you might get a few weekends where you feel fine on monday, but in all likelihood, after a month or two of that you'll start feeling the need to take the edge off on mon morning.

Like everyone said, if your supply is reliable and getting H isn't an issue, this is likely to get out of hand very quickly. If you switch to needles, make sure to read the IV thread and get some micron filters.

Source: I have dealt with chronic pain for the last 10 years, been on and off prescribed narcotics, and felt withdrawal more times than I can count. I also work part time in harm reduction.

 

[brimz]

Wow im shocked,

To all your needle users - you knew what you were getting into by picking up a needle so quit trying to make us feel sorry & pity you, you got the rewards now its time to pay the concequences of your actions.

Grow up, I think your all old enough by now.

Really , so you know me do you , you sound like a right heartless ....

 

[Ayrios]

Man is the internet ever polluted. There should be a thread where people who've suffered the ravages of addiction can tell their story and warn the naive, and another thread where people who don't use needles can put all of their opinions together to try push their plugging agenda. I can't think of how many simple questions, on this site and others, are answered with pages of unsolicited opinions or flat out condemnations of what the OP is trying to accomplish. It just isn't productive.

If someone has gone to the trouble of signing up here, and asking questions like the OP, what do you think his chances are of being persuaded to stop just by horror stories? I mean, I don't think I ever read "heroin saved my life! got my affairs in order, got me a girl now and a wicked job- all thanks to H! gotta try it!" so chances are these stories are nothing he hasn't already seen, and has decided to ignore... just like all of you did. Would it have stopped you if you were warned?

I'm not saying any of you are wrong, I'm just saying that its not relevant from a HR standpoint to just rail on people for a choice that they've already obviously made. Now, if some kid you actually KNOW comes up to you and says he's thinking about it, that's when you tell your story, that's when you help him get help. Your reach on here is very limited and opportunity wasted by flogging the dead horse... ha a pun!

Just answer the questions with the perspective "what do I know that might help this person to do this as safely as possible?" and we can stop filling up pages and pages of messages repeated ad nauseum. People are gonna do heroin and they're gonna shoot it; lets work as a community towards encouraging treatment, and safe needle use.

And please, If you don't use needles because you're somehow above that, keep your arrogance about IV use to yourself- you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Its just as bad as having a hundred replies from anti-drug types telling you to "just say no". Annoying, isn't it?

I'm only addressing part of your post, but I agree with much of it that I'm not. I agree with you that persuading this OP will be largely ineffectual, no matter the horror story. There's something else going on in this thread and every other thread here of potentially greater consequence, though. Each reply, if the poster realizes it or not, is just as much for the person Googling this question, someone who has only tried codeine and wondered if it didn't seem addictive to him if heroin was really that much worse, or someone who has only smoked weed and is already quite certain she'll never shoot heroin but is curious, or someone who lurks here, is new to drugs, but is sponging up information despite the fact that he'll likely lose interest or find all he needs in psychedelics before he finds a needle in his arm or even manages to find a bag of dope from his suburban home. Many of these 'collateral' readers won't find themselves influenced in a significant way or even find the information relevant enough to their drug usage tendencies to even bother remembering, but threads like these can tip someone on the fence in the right direction, or help steel someone's resolve or even their instincts in the back of their subconscious against ever getting involved with heroin.

Those who believe the horror stories are only directed at the OP for his benefit, who seems to many of us to already have charted his path, should consider the very concept of a public forum and just how many people are voiceless but involved as part of the (unintended) audience of this discussion.

 

[docs - docs]

And I completely agree with you, I just think that the course of a particular type of thread has become predictable. Someone asks about how to inject something, there's going to be a million "why would you?" or " its a one way street" type comments, and someone even mentions heroin and you get two pages of predictable responses. How many of these threads do we actually need? I think the reflexive response of these types of posts is making it harder for people like the OP to get real information because they'll ask a specific question and get bombarded.

I just think that this community has more to offer than the tactics that are typical of anti-drug policy, specifically because we are first-hand proof that that kind of approach doesn't work.

Warnings are very important, but if that's all this community has turned into, then its lost its relevance.

 

[Ayrios]

It's true these threads are predictable and could be considered harmful to the signal-noise ratio of the board. Each increases the prominence of the recurrent theme by shear frequency, but if the redundancy makes it more likely that someone (typically not the OP) is persuaded by one of these tired threads, I can't really condemn them... There are different degrees of harm reduction, and not to sound like an old man, but when I first started coming here, the dissuaders were a lesser proportion of posters and were much more frequently told to fuck off, often by staff. This has always been a harm reduction site, but has evolved to become more so over time, and regarding some things, like questions of switching from snorting heroin to shooting it, has become more concerned with harm nullification (decidedly anti-drug). I don't think it's intentional of the organic user base, or policy-based official doctrine prescribed to be encouraged by the mods, but a slow evolution over the years, which may make things less interesting and realistic (more futile), but I can't honestly say if it's less of an asset to the internet than in was in meaner times. It's still the most realistic drug forum I know of that still discourages reckless ignorance, the primary function of harm reduction at its core. In recent years, it goes a bit farther than that, however.

 

[docs - docs]

This is the kind of conversation that is probably better had over a drink rather than in text, so I'll mostly leave it at that... but only coming here every so often, I've noticed a pretty defined shift in attitude towards a hard line "just dont" type of message. I know that this is coming from a position of usually brutally real and hard-fought experience, but it is lacking in actual substance. Every time I come back, there's less cooperation and more battle stories from the front lines of addiction- more opinion and less helpful information. Its a trend that probably reflects just how universally damaging opiates really are, but there is a point where people will stop using this as a place to find information. Its interesting to see the shift in focus, but I think more balance is needed if the captive googling audience is going to stick around to read anything at all.

Either way, i think we agree with each other. Shocking how universal the relationship that people have with opiates is. You can almost draw out a time-line from where the OP is, what will happen in the next months and probably years, and what he'll be back here to say when and if he makes it out alive "I should have listened...". Opiates are like humanity's kryptonite .

 

[Ayrios]

Yeah man, I feel you. I think we agree on the shift here, and as you clearly don't care for it, for the purposes of the type of discussions I prefer to read or engage in and in the interest of unalienating harm reduction in its most basic form, I don't like it either. If I seem unsure as to which Bluelight serves the greater good more effectively, BL 2011 or BL 2002 or say 2006, it's because I'm quite unsure I don't think this place is in danger of forcing those with serious questions about how to escalate their use in a safe manner to the big alternative "forum of drugs," that other site bursting at the seams with bullshit where even skin-popping and IM'ing unrefined street drugs is rarely discouraged, but I hope the shift ends all the same, however unlikely things are to reverse.

Yep, opiates are the most universally, fundamentally appealing "life-enhancers" this side of extreme material wealth, and they're not even toxic in the classic sense... I'm an odd user having done them all and not become addicted to any after so many years (except perhaps tramadol which I wouldn't mind taking 100 mg of daily for the rest of my life--but it's the SNRI half of it I love), but I may yet arrive at the same conclusion as most. Each gram of dope I buy I think could be the turning point where I decide to restock instead of taking time off to reset as my withdrawal symptoms arrive faster and hit me harder every time, but I think I'll continue to tempt fate a while longer till one day my conclusions may mirror those of the majority

 

[abbyadios]

Here's what I know from my experience: we all seem to have that duality of mind (at least eventually)to where we simultaneously love and hate dope. We bemoan our addictions and still if we are honest with ourselves, we have also glorified them. I've spent a lot of good clean years off dope. But developed a pattern of getting clean a couple years and then binging for couple months. Then I'd snap to and go back to sobriety. Now, a year ago I went on my binge. Stayed strung out for a year. No habit at moment due to geographical relocation but I want to use more than ever. I always felt like if I could get thru the physical w/d I could stay clean. Not sure what changed but suddenly that is not the case anymore. It is daunting to imagine feeling like this the rest of my life. I guess what I'm saying is there is alot more to being on H than the physical, the psychological and emotional last much longer. but then. Perhaps we were already fked in that area which is why we sought out love and acceptance at the end of a point rather than more healthy means. I don't know if things are inevitable or just bad luck, but the soul of a junkie doesn't ever really seem to go away

 

[Ayrios]

Part of the reason you may want it so bad now is it's no longer in your control to pick up a habit whenever you want since you can't get any where you live. The lack of availability's got you thinking about it, it's not something you can pick up and drop whenever you desire anymore... That or perhaps more likely the last binge just resulted in serious post-acute withdrawal symptoms the first time, keeping you strung out that long. I used to be able to quit a short habit and feel totally normal a week later, now I experience longer periods of emptiness and apathy each time. Your body keeps count of your habits, and it's quicker to get back on each time and harder for longer when you get off :/ I think I'll probably experience the hate side of the relationship if I ever find the habit not worth the withdrawal and yet I still find myself wanting to use. I hope I walk away at that point.

I don't think opioid users are a different kind of people though. I think the effects are nearly universally attractive and anyone could get hooked. Some of us may be drawn closer to the bullshit romance of it (I grew up idolizing Kurt Cobain and Layne Staley during the 'heroin chic' years, so I blame my childhood (8-10 years old) influences a little bit) and some find the needle sexier which doesn't help, but as long as it doesn't make you sick, the effects are going to appeal to the vast majority of everyday people.

 

[abbyadios]

I don't know that I agree with that (the part about it appealing to most people). In my experience "normies" don't like feeling out of control and they certainly wouldn't have the intestinal fortitude to live the lifestyle. In my sober time, I've gotten advanced degree, became a professional etc. And yet there is part of me that, sadly, just wants to do junk. I know I haven't always felt that way--there was a time when being sober was great. I've also had a pretty crappy year, dope aside, and lost bf I thought was love of my life and my best friend of 20 yrs died...maybe that's all contributing to general desire to just roll up in a ball, nod off and forget about coping

 

[Ayrios]

Yeah I should clarify... I meant everyone likes their opioid receptors acted on, everyone likes a release of endorphins... Not everyone wants to nod, but if you've ever bothered to shoot a threshold dose, it's a gentle, light, clean high, like the first few 1 mg pushes of a morphine pump in a hospital. Before it's sedating, it simply makes everything a little nicer. That low-level activity, more so than the effects of non-opioids, is what I should have suggested is nearly universally appealing. The nod? Definitely not... The effects of a dose big enough to cause a small rush and minor sedation? Closer to universal, but that threshold amount is something attractive in a very basic rewarding way, and it's up to the user just how much more they enjoy on top of that (functional but quite high, or nodding and near-overdosing). I should sleep

 

[Auwksee1991]

dude heroin is really not that much different than oxy or opana. it's just got some weirdo stigma in our society cause it's usually injected. hell some kids on here seem to think it only comes in needle form

but seriously, i find opana to be more pleasurable and addictive than heroin, it's really not that big of a deal, but yeah they are obviously all very addictive drugs, and need to be used carefully. Heroin won't "instantly get you hooked" any more than OC or dillies will.

and lol @ the alcohol comment: opiates are FAR LESS damaging to the body than just about any drugs other than pot and psyches

 

[ms4104]

Blue Light is no place for racism, no matter how 'light hearted' it appears.

Yeah for real.. seriously thats retarded. 'Yeah thats the only way to describe him' How about just saying.. it all comes from one person. Or even a black person. Fail.

I wanna say about dope.. aside from it being MUCH easier to find and around 24/7 365.. it was no more addicitng for me than oxy. I was worse with oxy.. spend more money...fucked my finances up more. I can get high for 1/4 the cost and its 2x as good.

I was heavily addicted to oxy.. and nothing changed when i switched to dope.

That being said.. you are going to get addicted, to oxy, or dope, or wathever. Fuck a regimen..it wont mean shit. I do the 3 days on 4 days off and its 4 days of hell after a while.

 

[Silenced]

dude heroin is really not that much different than oxy or opana. it's just got some weirdo stigma in our society cause it's usually injected. hell some kids on here seem to think it only comes in needle form

but seriously, i find opana to be more pleasurable and addictive than heroin, it's really not that big of a deal, but yeah they are obviously all very addictive drugs, and need to be used carefully. Heroin won't "instantly get you hooked" any more than OC or dillies will.

and lol @ the alcohol comment: opiates are FAR LESS damaging to the body than just about any drugs other than pot and psyches

I don't really get the H is worst deal either.
I personally don't find IV heroin any more addictive or desirable than IV morphine.
I also don't find heroin anymore addictive/desirable than some opana or oxycodone up the nose.