Opioids Do you think 90% of your opiate(heroin,oxys,meth,subs) wds are just in your head??

[jeng1128]

I ask this not bc I agree with it but bc in one of my posts someone suggested it to me. While I do agree that some wds are in your head I think its nowhere near 90%~more like the other way around. My post was about coming off methadone & not being able to sleep. I assume if the person thought meth wds were all in your head-all other opiate could be included. It brings me back to when I first got addicted to oxys.

Ill admit it:I was one of those people who thought addiction could never happen to them(dont worry I learned quick!) In high school all I ever did was alcohol & pot & it never even occured to me to try anything. Also my parents are still together(happily),absolutly no addiction in my family(they barley drink),no tramatic events in my childhood(I couldnt have asked for a better one),everything you think an addict wouldve gone through I didnt. Which kinda sucks bc it really means I have no excuse to be a fuck up.

Anyways I went to college away from home(I will admit to being sheltered,naive) & got a bf. We were in his dorm room & I can still remember it to this day....him rushing in the door with this little pink pill(an oc 20),he suggested we split it & snort it. I had never snorted anything in my life but after a while I got talked into it. I loved it. I used on the weekends & it turned into thur,fri wkends ect. I didnt ever think id get dope sick-i just didnt think it could happen to me. I did them for about a year-nothing no wds. Anyways one morning I woke up at about 3am feeling AWFUL. I thought it was weird bc I always sleot in even if I was sick. I renember being on my laptop & a lightbulb went off in my head;"Jen,youre addicted to this stuff." I couldnt believe it....this wasnt happening to ME. Anyways I called my bf at like 7,explained we HAD to get more oxys,we did...I felt better & Im sure anyone addicted to opiates can figure the rest out.

I was just wondering what all you guys thought(it offended me i guess...someone telling me somthing was just in my head when I know it not to be true!!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

It's not mostly in your head; piloerection, high blood pressure, etc. are clear physical differences that you can't simply mentally reverse.

 

[laugh]

When I younger I wondered the same dealeo with pasties/cotton mouth from being stoned

 

[Cane2theLeft]

There is a substantial mental component but it's pointless to attempt to quantify that because it varies substantially between individuals.

For most people, the more times they withdraw, the worse the Withdrawals get regardless of if that is disproportionate to their use - it's basic classical conditioning: the more times you experience aversive stimuli, the more you will become afraid of it so your fear will make the physical symptoms worse and worse over time .

With that said, just because there's a substantial mental component doesn't mean you can just will away the symptoms (or rather the severity of them) any more than Pavlov's dogs can choose not to salivate at the sound of a bell. You are training yourself to have worse and worse withdrawals.

On top of this, the more mentally addicted you become, the more you try to convince yourself you HAVE to use. This is done through many forms of rationalization, one of which is convincing yourself that the withdrawal will be worse than it is so you will be too afraid to stop and this fear physically makes the withdrawal worse. You often see this in people who withdraw after single uses long after being physically dependent - they haven't used enough to become dependent again but they trigger their fear of withdrawal as well as their addictive processes trying to convince them to keep using.

 

[Jktm]

They actually seem to get easier for me, cane. Kinda like, well, I've been through this several times...getting used to it.

To answer OP, some of it is mental, but the shits, the nausea, the RLS, the high blood pressure, the constant sweating...that's pretty physical to me lol. The insomnia could be construed as mental though.

 

[Znegative]

I don't know.. I have grown to fear withdrawals much more now, especially having had to kick methadone cold turkey from 90mg in the past. I would think that going through them several times would make it easier too, but it just doesn't for me. The first time I experienced them I really couldn't connect that they were withdrawals, because as lame as it was, the first opiate I became seriously dependent (physically) upon was buprenorphine (and back in 2006 I was told suboxone was non-habit forming!).. I basicAlly thought I was sick and losing complete control over my emotions. It sucked, but the fact that I didn't connect it to suboxone made things way easier, though 'relapsed' two weeks later.

 

[5StarSquatHotel]

only 10% of people that say that have been in w/d.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

They actually seem to get easier for me, cane. Kinda like, well, I've been through this several times...getting used to it.

To answer OP, some of it is mental, but the shits, the nausea, the RLS, the high blood pressure, the constant sweating...that's pretty physical to me lol. The insomnia could be construed as mental though.

You haven't experienced years and years of daily, escalating doses producing the degree and frequency of withdrawals that zneg and I were speaking to. What I described I've seen near-universally reported from hundreds of posters over the years in Other Drugs as well as what I learned in over a dozen classes on the subject; I wasn't just relaying my experience. I'm sure there are exceptions and you might even be one (once you have used doses large enough for long enough to find out) but pointing those out Is irrelevant to this discussion.

The evidence of physical signs such as piloerection, rhinorrhea, diarrhea, etc do not disprove that classical conditioning typically exacerbates withdrawals over time just like dogs salivating does not disprove a psychological component to classical conditioning.

There is a truly substantial component of opioid withdrawal that IS psychological especially in the manner in which it develops over time. People don't like to hear this because they erroneously take that to mean some of withdrawals can simply be willed away but that is not the case although just like with most drugs, the expectations and beliefs you bring into it can affect the degree to which it will present.

 

[teological]

Last time I checked, the Naproxen does not allevate psychological symptoms, it gets rid of the god damn PHYSICAL aches!!

 

[macd610]

You haven't experienced years and years of daily, escalating doses producing the degree and frequency of withdrawals that zneg and I were speaking to. What I described I've seen near-universally reported from hundreds of posters over the years in Other Drugs as well as what I learned in over a dozen classes on the subject; I wasn't just relaying my experience. I'm sure there are exceptions and you might even be one (once you have used doses large enough for long enough to find out) but pointing those out Is irrelevant to this discussion.

The evidence of physical signs such as piloerection, rhinorrhea, diarrhea, etc do not disprove that classical conditioning typically exacerbates withdrawals over time just like dogs salivating does not disprove a psychological component to classical conditioning.

There is a truly substantial component of opioid withdrawal that IS psychological especially in the manner in which it develops over time. People don't like to hear this because they erroneously take that to mean some of withdrawals can simply be willed away but that is not the case although just like with most drugs, the expectations and beliefs you bring into it can affect the degree to which it will present.

Well put, Cane. This thread got me thinking ...
Like others have said, I believe that there is some level of "fear factor" involved with my withdrawals. For example, when I take my last doseI it doesn't seem like I get much relief at all. There's no physical reason for this, especially if I have not tapered in any way. The very knowledge that I will be violently ill soon renders my last dose pretty much useless. At Least, it seems that way at the time...obviously, it gets much much worse, and then of course, I would give anything to go back to the way I felt after taking my last couple of pills.
I believe that's the extent of the "in my head" part of withdrawals. The rest is all too hideously real
Obviously, in addition to the horrid physical symptoms of wd, there IS an emotional component; ie, depression, unimaginable misery and anxiety...although these things are very real as well.
The reason for the things that occur in my head only happen because I know for a fact that all of the symptoms will come because they always have.
I know I didn't word this the way I wanted to, but I'm sort of out of it today!
Thanks for bringing up the school topic and thanks for reading.
Cat

 

[BlueHues]

I feel like the mental and physical symptoms are somewhat interconnected. The anxiety seems to just bring out the physical symptoms so much more, especially the achiness, but I'd say to some extent all the other commonly known symptoms as well.

A person who becomes physically addicted to prescribed opiates over a period of time, who doesn't know they're "supposed" to be physically addicted, probably wouldn't experience as severe withdrawals as a heroin addict who KNOWS exactly what's coming, IMO.

Also, I know you guys have experienced this:

It's 1PM and the last dope you did at 11 O'clock last night has pretty much completely burned out of you.

You've been getting increasingly more anxious over the last 1 1/2 hours and your nose is starting to run, you're starting to feel like shit! You're not sure if you'll be able to cop because you only have 17 dollars to your name until payday!

Someone comes and lends you the money until friday, you call you're dealer, and shortly after, you're on your way to get your dope. Thank God!

Before you even get the dope, your withdrawal symptoms are completely gone, just knowing, "everythings gonna be okay!".

It definitely has a psychological component to it!

 

[tokenname]

I ask this not bc I agree with it but bc in one of my posts someone suggested it to me. While I do agree that some wds are in your head I think its nowhere near 90%~more like the other way around. My post was about coming off methadone & not being able to sleep. I assume if the person thought meth wds were all in your head-all other opiate could be included. It brings me back to when I first got addicted to oxys.

Ill admit it:I was one of those people who thought addiction could never happen to them(dont worry I learned quick!) In high school all I ever did was alcohol & pot & it never even occured to me to try anything. Also my parents are still together(happily),absolutly no addiction in my family(they barley drink),no tramatic events in my childhood(I couldnt have asked for a better one),everything you think an addict wouldve gone through I didnt. Which kinda sucks bc it really means I have no excuse to be a fuck up.

Anyways I went to college away from home(I will admit to being sheltered,naive) & got a bf. We were in his dorm room & I can still remember it to this day....him rushing in the door with this little pink pill(an oc 20),he suggested we split it & snort it. I had never snorted anything in my life but after a while I got talked into it. I loved it. I used on the weekends & it turned into thur,fri wkends ect. I didnt ever think id get dope sick-i just didnt think it could happen to me. I did them for about a year-nothing no wds. Anyways one morning I woke up at about 3am feeling AWFUL. I thought it was weird bc I always sleot in even if I was sick. I renember being on my laptop & a lightbulb went off in my head;"Jen,youre addicted to this stuff." I couldnt believe it....this wasnt happening to ME. Anyways I called my bf at like 7,explained we HAD to get more oxys,we did...I felt better & Im sure anyone addicted to opiates can figure the rest out.

I was just wondering what all you guys thought(it offended me i guess...someone telling me somthing was just in my head when I know it not to be true!!

i would say it depends on the individual.

i c/t morphine..a big and long lasting habit..when i was a teenager..
and didn't know anything.
i had no clue about w/d..or what i was in for.
so obviously, that w/d was not in my head.
i had no idea how awful methadone w/d could be either..so nope..
that was all real.

but i do believe that for some individuals, w/d can and is a self-fulfilling prophecy..
at least the severity of it.

i completely agree w/cane's first post. i should've just said that instead.

 

[macd610]

I feel like the mental and physical symptoms are somewhat interconnected. The anxiety seems to just bring out the physical symptoms so much more, especially the achiness, but I'd say to some extent all the other commonly known symptoms as well.

A person who becomes physically addicted to prescribed opiates over a period of time, who doesn't know they're "supposed" to be physically addicted, probably wouldn't experience as severe withdrawals as a heroin addict who KNOWS exactly what's coming, IMO.

Also, I know you guys have experienced this:

It's 1PM and the last dope you did at 11 O'clock last night has pretty much completely burned out of you.

You've been getting increasingly more anxious over the last 1 1/2 hours and your nose is starting to run, you're starting to feel like shit! You're not sure if you'll be able to cop because you only have 17 dollars to your name until payday!

Someone comes and lends you the money until friday, you call you're dealer, and shortly after, you're on your way to get your dope. Thank God!

Before you even get the dope, your withdrawal symptoms are completely gone, just knowing, "everythings gonna be okay!".

It definitely has a psychological component to it!

Blues,
I understand where you're coming from, however...I find myself in the EXACT opposite situation. I take opiates for chronic pain and have no problem admitting to myself and others that I've become physically dependent.
When I run out a little early, my wd's are bad. Ive been through this same situation several times, so don't know why I always think things will be totally fine once I get my prescription...bc they never are.
Inevitably, I take the medicine and lo and behold- Why am I not all better?! It usually takes me at least 3 days -a week (depending on how long I was out) to really feel back to "normal". So why do I always expect, an hour after taking my meds, to feel all better?
I know I got a bit off topic there...I just found it super interesting that we experience such extreme opposites
Cat

 

[thelung]

coming off of 100+MG Methadone daily for 5 years. most definitely not ''in my head''

 

[laCster]

i'm so afraid of WD and relapse that i dont want to get off suboxone, ever...

mindset is a major key, but there are proven (utilizing scientific method), biological reasons why you feel physical pain.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

coming off of 100+MG Methadone daily for 5 years. most definitely not ''in my head''

No one in here is saying it's ALL in your head and we all seem to be in agreement that it's certainly nowhere near 90% psychological but there is a mountain of empirical evidence that there is a tremendous portion that is psychological - this is evidenced by most people getting worse withdrawals over time regardless of doses for example or people experiencing physical withdrawal after single uses long after quitting. A single use is not enough to reestablish physical dependence but it IS enough to trigger a response a la classical conditioning which is a psychological process.

People become so afraid of withdrawal that this fear of it makes the actual experience substantively greater than it would be otherwise. Another great perspective on this phenomenon comes in Bruce K. Alexander and Stanton Peele's writing on the subject and the Rat Park studies.

 

[cj]

only 10% of people that say that have been in w/d.

haha that made me laugh. But I agree with the sentament because for me its the physical pain the feeds the mental pain.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

I believe that you can mentally make it worse, and many of us do that.. we build up how bad it's going to be or we say something like .."there's no way I'm going to sleep man, I'm not going to sleep for a week!".. well, you keep thinking that way and you wont sleep for a week. However, there is only so much the whole mind over matter thing can accomplish. Once you get deep enough into your addiction and your withdrawals get bad enough (because they do get worse as time goes on) psychical symptoms are psychical symptoms. Hardcore vomiting, high blood pressure, seizures, shit like that goes beyond whatever mental bullshit you have psyching yourself out.. it's chemical. But, making it worse in your own head will also make it worse on your body just because you're focusing on it so bad. I do believe in positive mental attitude but.. when your writhing on the bathroom floor, drenched in sweat, puking blood for hours on end... there aint' nothin "mental" about that. There have been plenty of times that I had convinced myself I was fine, totally 100% believes it, because I just kept telling myself it was all in my head, blah blah..and I believed it.. that night I had a seizure.. hah.

 

[Sepher]

I'm not sure I agree entirely with the notion that worsening withdrawals over time are entirely a conditioned response. I suspect there is another physical mechanism also involved in that. Kindling probably. It's not just that we come to fear withdrawal more and so it feels worse because of our anxiety. ( Cane, apologies if that's a misreading! ) Having said that there is definitely a large psychological component to the intensity of symptoms experienced and anxiety certainly feeds into that.

I discovered just how much is mental when I was sent down the first time. I'd been a heroin addict for around 6 years-ish, was averaging around 2g / day IV and had been for some time. I'd tried to come off many times, rarely making it past day three. The prison I was in prescribed a rapid ten day detox of dihydrocodeine and nitrazepam, I forget the doses but believe it was max of 240mg ( 8 x 30mg / day ) on dy three. I was trading half my script at least, by days 4/5/6 pretty much all of it with other prisoners for tobacco cos I couldn't get a buy up the first week, and on the whole found the detox quite tolerable, even day three when by rights I should have been climbing the walls and ready to string myself up. Easiest detox I've ever done. Found exactly the same during my second spell inside. The simple fact that I could not score even if I wanted to took a good proportion of the very worst symptoms away. It was still rough. It was still about as bad as I'll ever want to feel again, and if I'd been on the out it would have had me caving no question but inside it was pretty straightforward.

My belief is that anxiety about how bad symptoms are gonna be, and anxiety about that whole score / don't score thing ramps up the noradrenaline levels. Since one of the causes of some of the symptoms associated with opiate withdrawal is posited to be the rebound overproduction of noradrenaline giving the sudden absence of opiates which previously suppressed noradrenaline production in the locus coeruleus, anything which further kicks up noradrenaline levels, like for example the flight or fight response to stress will tend to make those symptoms worse. That is, objectively worse. It's not purely subjective. It's a physical mechanism, the same mechanism that clonidine and lofexidine are designed to treat by suppression of noradrenaline production. This makes massive sense to me.

 

[BlueHues]

Blues,
I understand where you're coming from, however...I find myself in the EXACT opposite situation. I take opiates for chronic pain and have no problem admitting to myself and others that I've become physically dependent.
When I run out a little early, my wd's are bad. Ive been through this same situation several times, so don't know why I always think things will be totally fine once I get my prescription...bc they never are.
Inevitably, I take the medicine and lo and behold- Why am I not all better?! It usually takes me at least 3 days -a week (depending on how long I was out) to really feel back to "normal". So why do I always expect, an hour after taking my meds, to feel all better?
I know I got a bit off topic there...I just found it super interesting that we experience such extreme opposites
Cat

I find it strange that it takes days of you consecutively taking your medicine to get rid of the withdrawals(unless it's suboxone).

My DOC was IV heroin, and the sickness instantly when away when I used... only to come right back the next day! lol

It seems like being addicted to opiates is having two addictions at the same time, the mental and the physical. It took me significantly less drugs to supress the withdrawal symptoms, than it did for me to get high.

In a given day, I would never be happy with just enough to "get well" and would continue to do whatever I needed to do to get enough to actually "feel the dope"......only to have the do the same thing the next day, which really sucked when the only dope around was mediocre!

Of course, over time the amount that I needed to get high became the amount I used to need to stay well and on and on and on.....

Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you're taking a set amount of a prescribed drug everyday, I can understand the dose you're taking not being effective to treat your pain anymore, but I can't see it not being enough to at least keep most of the withdrawals away. My reasonong being that, a therapeutic dose to treat pain should be higher than a dose required to suppress withdrawal symptoms.

With street drugs like heroin, the quality/purity of the drugs can change dramatically from day to day, sometimes causing you to have to pay 1 1/2 times to 2 times as much just to achieve the same effect. that sucks!

If you're in withdrawal for a week every single month and you're not abusing your medication, you should really tell your doctor it's not working for you! I also know a lot of people who are prescribed opiates burn through their script in 2 weeks! I'm not sure what exactly the case is with you.