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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Do You Believe In Aliens?

vortech said:
In related news, I feel like the Earth Coincidence Control Office has been very busy recently...anyone else feel what I'm saying?
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You mean that the Nice terror attack and Turkey coup attempt are a plot by the aliens to change world politics?
 
belligerent drunk said:
Of course, this is purely non-scientific speculation, but it's just one of those mindfuck things that have occurred to me when on psychedelics. The main problem is that we may not be able to recognize the life even if its right in front of us. Dark matter anyone? Again, I'm not being serious, just putting a few out-there thoughts out... there (that pun).
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Here's one of Shulgin's trip reports, about a 64 mg dose of 2C-B:

(with 64 mg) I found only mild visual and emotional effects at the 20 milligram dose, so I took the remaining 44 milligrams. I was propelled into something not of my choosing. Everything that was alive was completely fearsome. I could look at a picture of a bush, and it was just that, a picture, and it posed no threat to me. Then my gaze moved to the right, and caught a bush growing outside the window, and I was petrified. A life-form I could not understand, and thus could not control. And I felt that my own life-form was not a bit more controllable. This was from the comments of a physician who assured me that he saw no neurological concerns during this dramatic and frightening experience.
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It's strange that he saw an ordinary plant as if it were some terrifying alien life form...
 
Xorkoth said:
I hope the earth really has been visited by extraterrestrial intelligent life, because that would mean that some method of travel that circumvents the speed of light limitation must exist, and that would mean that one day it could become feasible for us to actually travel to other places and truly discover things that we can only speculate about. If it's not possible to travel faster than the speed of light, then I don't see how it's at all feasible that we or any other form of life could ever actually visit another. The time scales required to travel such overwhelmingly vast distances are too prohibitive. And once gone, even communication of any kind back and forth would be limited by the speed of light.
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Even traveling at the speed of light, it would take immense amounts of time to get from one distant object to another (hence the term light year - a distance light travels in a year, and many objects are many-many-many light years away). I know polymath can expand on the subject a little more, but using some type of special spacetime curvature, it may be able to "connect" very distant points in spacetime so that you could travel between them within reasonable timeframe. Again, this sounds like nonsense coming from me, because I know little of the subject, but I've read of something like this being theorized.
 
Yeah that's what I'm thinking, if it's possible to bend spacetime somehow, by employing "wormholes" or whatever, that would be the only way I could imagine to actually travel those distances. I mean the nearest star to us is 4 years away at the speed of light... billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and it seems likely that most stars wouldn't have life. To travel across our galaxy, which is far from the largest, is around 100,000 years at the speed of light, and to travel between galaxies... it's utterly unfeasible to do so due to the distances unless some sort of "warping" via folding is possible. Like I said, I do hope it's possible. If it is, then it's possible alien life forms have visited Earth, if it's not, then I think it's not possible they have ever done so nor will ever do so. Nor that we will ever do so.
 
If you were to travel to the nearest star with speed 0.99c (99% of speed of light), you would not experience the travel to take 4 years, your perception of the time would be shorter because of the time dilation effect of special relativity. Once you'd come back to Earth, you would find out that at least 8 years have passed, though. By moving at a speed close enough to the speed of light, you could travel any distance in your lifetime. This effect explains why high-energy muons formed in the upper atmosphere can reach the earth's surface even though muon's t1/2 is so short that they should decay on their way down.

A good mental image of this is that because time and space coordinates are treated equally in relativity, you can not only use kinetic energy to travel faster through space, you can also use it to travel faster forward in time without aging in the process yourself.

The idea of bending the spacetime around a spaceship to be able to travel faster than light is the subject of NASA scientist Harold White's research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_G._White

Making that "warp drive" would require exotic matter with negative mass energy density, though, which is highly speculative.
 
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Considering the possibility of attaining close-to-light-speed speeds, wouldn't the ever-increasing mass be a problem?

Again, my quasi-scientific gut-feeling tells me that the making of spacetime "wormholes" or some sort of connections between distant regions in which to travel is a more realistic possibility than going for light speed travel.
 
belligerent drunk said:
Considering the possibility of attaining close-to-light-speed speeds, wouldn't the ever-increasing mass be a problem?

Again, my quasi-scientific gut-feeling tells me that the making of spacetime "wormholes" or some sort of connections between distant regions in which to travel is a more realistic possibility than going for light speed travel.
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The actual mass of an object is really a velocity-independent constant. The concept of relativistic mass that increases at high speeds is just an informal way to make some equations of special relativity simpler. http://sasuke.econ.hc.keio.ac.jp/~ken/physics-faq/mass.html

The easiest way to attain speeds close to the speed of light would probably be to use photon propulsion.
 
Yes, rest mass is velocity-independent, but wouldn't the "apparent" mass increase still be a problem? Photons travel at light speed because they lack rest mass, but particles that do have rest mass can't really attain light speed or otherwise their mass would approach infinity. That's the problem I'm talking about.
 
^ Yes, the energy needed to accelerate a substantial amount of mass to 0.99c would be very large,
 
I definitely believe in aliens. I do not however believe that they are visiting earth, abducting people. at least I have never had any alien visitations. Science has discovered that majority of stars in the sky have planets orbiting around them. Like our own sun has planets. I don't know if alien life would be anything like human beings. I think those looking for life on other planets are looking for something similar to what we humans are like, which I think that is looking in the wrong direction.

However if aliens were to come here and ask me if I would go with them and leave earth forever. I would probably say ABSOLUTLEY!
:)
 
polymath said:
Creation of any kind of life (abiogenesis) probably begins with some amphiphilic compounds forming membranes that enclose a space, because a living organism must be able to contain itself (I don't think there will ever be a living creature that can be dissolved in a liquid solution and then precipitated again, retaining its identity in the process) and that kind of membranes are the physically easiest way to do it. Genetic code will probably not always be in the form of nucleic acids, because it's easy to imagine alternative compounds for information storage, the same applies to the storage of energy in the form of carbohydrates and ATP. Most living creatures that can perceive light will probably have two "eyes" because that's the only way to get an effective stereoscopic vision.
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Even lifeforms built on those, the same from which we are built, can be very different from us. I mean: plants. And vision is just one possibility. Aren't there blind fishes in the depths of the ocean? In their environment, which is not so far from ours, vision is irrelevant - hell, plants share their environment with us and they too don't have vision. Think how different the environments out there can be.

Anyway, even though now that I reread my post it kinda looks like so, my original intent wasn't to conjecture how aliens should[\i] look like - i.e. "they are very certainly not carbon-based!" -, but rather that given how little we know - something which Xorkoth went on about later, and I agree - and how such a big of a mindfuck everything just is, it seems unlikely that we can conjecture at all how they look like, and that in the popular conception of aliens, it is implicit that they must be similar to us.

What b_drunk and Xorkoth talked about is exactly the kind of stuff that I had in mind. Surely sounds far fetched, but, I mean (even though this argument is very cliché...), computers or man having stepped on the moon definitely would've sounded far fetched too, or at least esoteric, to someone living in past times. So, yeah...
 
Absolutely. In my experience i know There are several deifferent species, many of them related to us. We are actually direct offshoots of what might be known as the elohim or the seeders of this planet. Many of them exist at a higher vibrational frequency, in different dimensions, although they can travel between them with ease. Keep in mind when i talk about dimensions they are neither time spaces nor places, but states of being, as mainstream science is begining to realize. There is no time or space constrictions in the 5th dimension, and they are beyond gender here as well, representing beings of pure light often projecting themselves as previous physicalized incarnations.
Look up bashar, a first contact specialist channeled by daryl anka:) with love and light.
 
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polymath said:
If you were to travel to the nearest star with speed 0.99c (99% of speed of light), you would not experience the travel to take 4 years, your perception of the time would be shorter because of the time dilation effect of special relativity. Once you'd come back to Earth, you would find out that at least 8 years have passed, though. By moving at a speed close enough to the speed of light, you could travel any distance in your lifetime. This effect explains why high-energy muons formed in the upper atmosphere can reach the earth's surface even though muon's t1/2 is so short that they should decay on their way down.

A good mental image of this is that because time and space coordinates are treated equally in relativity, you can not only use kinetic energy to travel faster through space, you can also use it to travel faster forward in time without aging in the process yourself.

The idea of bending the spacetime around a spaceship to be able to travel faster than light is the subject of NASA scientist Harold White's research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_G._White

Making that "warp drive" would require exotic matter with negative mass energy density, though, which is highly speculative.
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It would indeed by very difficult to travel all that distance, but as you said near the speed of light one wouldn't age very much while on all these journeys. So, I suppose it's possible that to aliens visiting Earth, to us it would seem like it took them tens of thousands of years to get here while to them it was a mere minutes or hours if they were close enough to the speed of light. The warp drive idea could completely circumvent time, space, and even reality altogether. With artificially created wormholes, it could even be possible to travel into dimensions other than our own. So, it would even open up the possibility that aliens may not even be from "space" as we know it but from another dimension entirely. With wormholes, the possibilities literally become infinite and beyond what our consciousness is able to comprehend.
 
I believe you're perhaps mistaken. Wormholes are not quite that extraordinary. Although definitely fascinating. Using them for transport (traversable wormholes) and time travel are plausible. But further than that and we're getting very speculative.

Other dimensions would still involve space, just unusual movement through it. You may be thinking of other realities, based on context.
We are not in one dimension, we're residing in 4, 4 dimensions of movement in spacetime. There may be more according to some theories, but they're not separate from us, we just don't use them as macrobeings, but small particles may.

Without beating the speed of light issue one way or another, be it by actually going faster somehow, or cheating it by getting somewhere faster than light without actually going faster at any point in any frame of reference, you're screwed. Your limits to how far you can go are highly limited. Just a tiny portion of just our galaxy.


As for aliens existing. Absolutely I'm sure they do, the math's and odds speak for themselves. Alien life likely sprinkles the galaxy and the universe, and intelligent life sprinkles that.
 
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OP, I've come to believe that the idea of aliens is very plausible. I've done lot of research on the early technology of man and they could do things in cutting and moving hugely heavy stone etc. that we don't have a clue about. The Sumerians left stories of how aliens actually created modern man to mine minerals for them and they seem to describe some modern technologies and astronomical knowledge that should have been impossible. Also stories of what sound like nuclear warfare which also might be in some Indian texts. So yeah I'm up on the fence at least.
 
Well, people consider the possibility of a planet being able to form life, so they get sure that there are aliens. But I think when we talk about alliens we mean a civilization out of earth. I think there is no something like that,
because it's so much of a long road from germs to a creature that can form a civilatiation, that the possibilities say no.
 
But the sheer size of the universe suggests that nearly anything is not only possible, but likely. However, given the extremely narrow time window that is likely for such a civilization, and the different times that a planet would have begun to develop life, I think civilization is probably sparsely peppered throughout the known universe. But given there are at least 1 hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe, and billions to hundreds of billions of stars in EVERY SINGLE ONE... well, the math is staggering. It renders nearly any probability almost certain.
 
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