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DMT and Religion, The inaccuracies in reported effects due to religious thought.

Are you sure these "entities" arn't just a product of your own imagination tho? Like all those rednecks in southern towns who claim aliens abducted them and used anal probes?

100% sure. Naturally you can visualize figments of your own psyche (that happened to me too), but there were definite instances where I knew what I was seeing was not the product of me. It's like dreaming of a friend and seeing them in real life, whilst they both look the same one has a very real presence to it/you can feel something observing you that isn't your own point of observation.
 
It's amazing that everytime these kinds of arguements come up about the legitimacy of the drug-induced psychedelic experience, these hardcore, blunt materialists seem to overlook one very simple but very important point. I've explained this before, but it seems people don't seem to grasp the concept, or don't want to grasp it, so I'll outline it again here.

Your average meat-and-bone, nuts-and-bolts materialist will typically assert that the psychedelic experience is just a molecule messing with your brain's receptors, and thus all the sensorial changes and mental epiphanies or insights are somehow false, meaningless, and have no basis in reality. However, this perspective is erroneous, and arises from an ignorant understanding of reality. Let me go on to explain why.

This viewpoint is based in the assumption that there is a "true" state of reality perception called "sobriety", and that this perceived "state" is entirely separated from - and independent of (unaffected by) - any differing situation of biochemical composition. This state of "sobriety" is held upon a throne of majesty as if it is the lens through which to perceive the world, and that one must either be in sobriety, or out of it, as if there were some universally absolute dividing line between that state and any other, and a door between them.

However, there is actually no reason whatsoever why one should believe in the fallacy of such a dual-concept model comprising what is perceived as:

1. an actual separate and independently verifiable state where a person is "sober",

2. what is perceived as everything outside that compartmentalised state, where a person is "under the influence of drugs".​


The notion of the state of being "under the influence of drugs" is completely artificial, and is merely the result of a mental division caused by educationally-induced programming. Its only usefulness is in the convenience of comparative discussion. There is actually no difference between what people perceive as "sobriety", and what people perceive as "intoxicated". They are exactly the same, they just involve different molecules, and hence a different form of the very same macro state - which is homeostatic imbalance. Human life is never in homeostatic equilibrium, rather we are in a constant state of dynamic flux. This is because the physical aspects of life which make up what we perceive as our bodies constantly come and go, whilst energy is restlessly transferred from place to place.

It matters not which chemicals are in our brains at a given time. There are no biological rules, and therefore there is no "correct" neurochemical state from which to perceive the world through the senses. Why should it be that what people call "sobriety" is the "correct" view of reality, whereas - for example - with DMT acting at brain receptors the senses suddenly report false information? The reason is because people make a false distinction between two non-separate states - that of the so called "sober" state, and that of the so-called "intoxicated". The fact is, we are contantly intoxicated, and therefore if one is to call in to question the validity of sensorial information whilst "intoxicated", one must also call in to question the validity of sensorial information whilst "sober".

Why are we contantly intoxicated? The reason we are contantly intoxicated is because we are made of molecules which never cease to be introduced to our bodies and subsequently eliminated. It is the very mechanism of that constant consumption of the material world (through air, water, and food) which grants us the perceptual experiences we have. When we stop consuming, our experience of our existential situation changes. Try fasting for a few days, and you will see that your perception of reality alters. Even changing your diet, or going without your favourite food for a day or two will alter your mood, and thus your perception of reality. It doesn't mean that your perception of reality is any more or less valid during those times.

Additional thought experiments:

Ask youself: when you eat chocolate and you get a buzz from it, does your perception of reality suddenly become false because you are "intoxicated" on chocolate? The answer is no, your perception is simply different to what it was before you ate it, because you are experiencing reality with chocolate molecules in your body (sugars, proteins, theobromide, caffeine, anandamide etc).

Moreover, ask yourself when it is that you think that those chocolate molecules (proteins, fats, etc.) suddenly become an aspect of what you think is 'your' body.

Is it when you put the chocolate in your mouth?

When you swallow it?

When the molecules have passed through the intestinal wall?​

One can see that there is actually never a definable point at which the molecules that we consume (including the air we breathe) become an aspect of our body, and when they leave. Our bodies are not independent of the world beyond our skin; we are entirely inter-dependent in every causal way. And the same is true with "drugs". They are never truly consumed, and they never truly leave. Rather, it is the universal concentration and distribution of such molecules at the experiential nexus (which you call your body) which defines the type of experience you have at any given moment.

Therefore, the argument that a psychedelic trip is simply a false experience caused by an invalid biological state is a bad argument, and thus totally wrong.
 
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i think though that when we are sober, our minds are doing the best they can to create an accurate model of their surroundings. when brains are tripping, i think this accuracy is thrown out of the window.
 
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I think you miss the point that the "intoxicated" state of consciousness caused by hallucinogenic substances, much like the "meditative" state of consciousness caused by fasting or prayer, aren't applicable to the "sober" state of consciousness (which is part of the zeitgeist* of Western society). I'm sorry if you don't agree with this "materialist" sentiment, yet it is a sad (or wonderful) fact about modern society.

I personally believe that fasting, prayer, and meditative states along with hallucinogenic substance use can all be effectively amalgamated with Western culture. However, I also think personal sentiments filled with faith based, idealist notions aren't going to get us there. Until there is a rational, scientific inquiry into the health benefits of hallucinogens in healthy volunteers, any discussion about their applicability in society is moot. Saying an intoxicated state of consciousness is comparable to, or interchangeable with, the commonly accepted "sober" state of consciousness is ludicrous and tantamount to stating psychosis is the same as sanity.


*To elaborate: By zeitgeist, in this context I mean strictly the culturally accepted concept of normal conscious states. Anything in the DSM IV would not be accepted as normal. Some, possibly most humans, will have aspects of disorders within the DSM. Even though this may be the case, it is well respected in the scientific community that conscious states produced through hallucinogens are not valid in respect to reality.
 
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There is no communicating about "money" (wtf is "money"?? lol) and no agreeing or disagreeing to anything.

That's totally the opposite to what I experience from psychedelics sockpuppet. The whole value and beauty of the experience is that you can experience it with your conscious self. The thought of being in a psychotic state where you are unable to distuingish between a mushroom fairy and a rapist doesn't appeal in the slightest.

It is fascinating to me that some people can experience these things so differently,


You might be in the minority who are unable to distuingish reality from tripping. Hoffman always said the most important thing about a psychedelic experience was that you were aware you were on a drug and it wasn't simply a psychosis/deleriant experience. I dunno whether I'm a hardhead - I'm just grateful I can tell a mushroom fairy from a rapist. I like going out in nature when I'm tripping for example - I wouldn't want to go up to a total stranger and say "Hi mushroom fairy, care to join me?"

100% sure. Naturally you can visualize figments of your own psyche (that happened to me too), but there were definite instances where I knew what I was seeing was not the product of me. It's like dreaming of a friend and seeing them in real life, whilst they both look the same one has a very real presence to it/you can feel something observing you that isn't your own point of observation.

How come no-one who trips can ever get any meaningful information from these "entities" tho? A history of their species for example?

Why is it that a tripper always sounds like he is describing an old episode of Star Trek mixed with a bit of Terence Mckenna when he describes these aliens?
 
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I think the whole point of psychedelics is that you are perfectly aware you are tripping. If you weren't aware of this fact and thought it was real then I'd call that psychosis. I've got no interest in psychosis which is why I stick to psychedelics rather than deleriants.

Very cogent. I agree that the most value from tripping comes when you KNOW you are tripping. The LEARNING comes from the integrating the difference between "usual" perception of reality and an "altered" one... (notice I did not say "real" and "unreal"). It's like the different angles of your two separated eyes giving you EXTRA information about additional dimensions of reality (i.e., STEREO 3D vision) that would not be possible with just a single point of view. Being able to appreciate them both in relation to each other is when you really see new information that gives added depth to the experience of experience.

This is possible when you are so immerse you don't realize what is happening, but requires unusually clear recall LATER of what may be very mystifying experiences, which is difficult, but if it can be done, then that way also you can achieve the comparison of that to a more "typical" pperception.

~ The Shaman in us All ~ by Bill Brouard http://www.facebook.com/pages/Visual-Alchemy/307201723841

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izzy said:
Why is it that a tripper always sounds like he is describing an old episode of Star Trek mixed with a bit of Terence Mckenna when he describes these aliens?
Haha, that reminds me of Hyperion, a device exists that lets us communicate with dolphins. The communication is like talking to a two year old, neither side manages to meaningfully convey information, but trying is fun.

SA said:
there is no spoon

I disagree with you in this case. The human organism evolved for the brain to function in a certain way, and while there's no absolutely correct configuration like you say, there's certainly a range of states ideal to the function of the organism where all systems are acting as they been evolved to do (not to say evolution has a set direction, just convenient to use the language I did). Significantly altering consciousness via the introduction of exogenous ligands into the system cannot be expected to provide an equally meaningful interpretation of reality, though it can teach us very much about the function of our own consciousness.

I agree with your conclusion that it isn't a "false state," but I strongly reject any implication of equivalency with our default.

SA said:
One can see that there is actually never a definable point at which the molecules that we consume (including the air we breathe) become an aspect of our body, and when they leave. Our bodies are not independent of the world beyond our skin; we are entirely inter-dependent in every causal way.

While at a technical level this may be correct, let me ask the very important question "So what?" How do you propose we integrate this data into our lives and worldview?
 
MyExcuse said:
I think you miss the point that the "intoxicated" state of consciousness caused by hallucinogenic substances, much like the "meditative" state of consciousness caused by fasting or prayer, aren't applicable to the "sober" state of consciousness (which is part of the zeitgeist* of Western society). I'm sorry if you don't agree with this "materialist" sentiment, yet it is a sad (or wonderful) fact about modern society.

*To elaborate: By zeitgeist, in this context I mean strictly the culturally accepted concept of normal conscious states. Anything in the DSM IV would not be accepted as normal. Some, possibly most humans, will have aspects of disorders within the DSM. Even though this may be the case, it is well respected in the scientific community that conscious states produced through hallucinogens are not valid in respect to reality.​

I didn't miss the point, I addressed it on the nose. That zeitgeist perspective you refer to is what I am attempting to deconstruct, by showing that - no matter how useful it may be to support an already established view - it is an erroneous way of seeing it.

(If I missed the point of what you meant in the above quoted post, please elaborate further.)

Lazyscience said:
i think though that when we are sober, our minds are doing the best they can to create an accurate model of their surroundings. when brains are tripping, i think this accuracy is thrown out of the window.

You make this assertion without giving any credible explanation as to why. The problem is, as I outlined above, your assertion is made in the foundations of the presupposition (in other words, already taken as a 'given') that everyday "sobriety" is the one and only benchmark by which to judge "true" experience, and thus you toss out other mindstates as invalid in comparison. Your mind has already been made up before you've asked yourself the question. This is called circular logic.

Never Knows Best said:
I agree with your conclusion that it isn't a "false state," but I strongly reject any implication of equivalency with our default.

Fine, you can reject the equivalency (as you term it) between what is known as "intoxicated" and what is known as "sober" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there is no difference in the validity. It just means that you reject it in favour of a pre-packaged notion that there is one singular valid, untouchable state of normalcy called "sobriety", which is not subject to the logical laws of the universe i.e. cause and effect (the causation that would render such a segregated 'state' to be nonsense).

The only reason that there is a baseline normalcy to which we seem to return no matter what we consume - in other words, that humans metabolize and excrete particular chemicals, and favor the preservation of others - is because that is how our DNA is currently coded at this stage of our evolution. Our organism evolves far slower than the typical length of time of a psychedelic trip. Our DNA blueprint does not adapt to changes that quickly, and therefore, we always return to relatively the same neurochemical balance that we had before we ingested the drug. This does not mean that such a baseline consciousness is the correct consciousness, it just means that is the way we spend most of our time due to the slow process of biological change which occurs over aeons, (rather than in the timescale of a psychedelic trip).

Never Knows Best said:
Significantly altering consciousness via the introduction of exogenous ligands into the system cannot be expected to provide an equally meaningful interpretation of reality

Why not? (Please clarify what you mean by "meaningful".)

Again, this is a misunderstanding, and I have already explained why. There is no point at which exogenous ligands are introduced to the system, and this is the answer to your next question below:

Never Knows Best said:
Survived Abortion said:
One can see that there is actually never a definable point at which the molecules that we consume (including the air we breathe) become an aspect of our body, and when they leave. Our bodies are not independent of the world beyond our skin; we are entirely inter-dependent in every causal way.

While at a technical level this may be correct, let me ask the very important question "So what?" How do you propose we integrate this data into our lives and worldview?

I didn't just throw in to my post the part you quoted out of sheer randomness. The point was to explain that we are never free from intoxication by so-called exogenous substances, because such substances are unconsumed and unexcreted, on an ultimate level. Our experience is intoxication, it's just not always apparent to the individual (because when you are constantly intoxicated on the same molecules i.e. the same foods eaten every day, you believe you are at baseline). The ramifications of which mean that there is no definable "sober" state (indeed, 'state' is a bad word to use to describe a system in continuous flux), and that any notion of such a state being superior in regards to perceptual validity is wrong.
 
Survived Abortion said:
You make this assertion without giving any credible explanation as to why. The problem is, as I outlined above, your assertion is made in the foundations of the presupposition (in other words, already taken as a 'given') that everyday "sobriety" is the one and only benchmark by which to judge "true" experience, and thus you toss out other mindstates as invalid in comparison. Your mind has already been made up before you've asked yourself the question. This is called circular logic.

i think the reason that sober mindstates are a much more accurate representation of reality that tripping states because during sober states you are able to make predictions about the world around you. the brain has evolved over millions of years to create the best model of reality it can to help is to survive to catch food and things like that and to use logic to work stuff out. im not saying that tripping states are any less true that sober ones, i think they are just as valid but just not useful in any practical way really. i cant really see any big advances in civilisation that happed as a result of the tripping mindstate for example. its hard enough just to remember anything when tripping.
 
i cant really see any big advances in civilisation that happed as a result of the tripping mindstate for example. its hard enough just to remember anything when tripping.

are you not familiar with the 'stoned ape' theory of evolution?
 
i think the reason that sober mindstates are a much more accurate representation of reality that tripping states because during sober states you are able to make predictions about the world around you. the brain has evolved over millions of years to create the best model of reality it can to help is to survive to catch food and things like that and to use logic to work stuff out. im not saying that tripping states are any less true that sober ones, i think they are just as valid but just not useful in any practical way really. i cant really see any big advances in civilisation that happed as a result of the tripping mindstate for example. its hard enough just to remember anything when tripping.

Heh. That's a common fallacy, but an interesting point nonetheless. But it requires a teleological answer. What in fact is "reality"? Take this example. I'm facing a red pencil in front of me. What is the pencil but trillions of atoms joined together of which 99.9999% is empty space, and the perception of matter is solely a matter of observation scale. Also, the way you perceive a pencil is different from an ant, and different from an elephant. Further, does the color red exist, or isn't it just a mental artifact created by my own brain and nervous receptors in my eyes (red is just a reflected wavelength). Our cognitive apparatus evolved simultaneously with other species that inhabit the same "consensus reality" for the conditions of planet Earth. So the bias when facing it is mostly similar .

As I said this is rather deep, and of course one ends up asking what is reality. The fact that we are able to willingly change the way our surrounding environment presents itself to us, by changing our brain chemistry is a tentative to rip asunder the veils that are inherent to our perceptional and cognitive apparatus.
 
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Heh. That's a common fallacy, but an interesting point nonetheless. But it requires a teleological answer. What in fact is "reality"? Take this example. I'm facing a red pencil in front of me. What is the pencil but trillions of atoms joined together of which 99.9999% is empty space, and the perception of matter is solely a matter of observation scale. Also, the way you perceive a pencil is different from an ant, and different from an elephant. Further, does the color red exist, or isn't it just a mental artifact created by my own brain and nervous receptors in my eyes (red is just a reflected wavelength). Our cognitive apparatus evolved simultaneously with other species that inhabit the same "consensus reality" for the conditions of planet Earth. So the bias when facing it is mostly similar .

As I said this is rather deep, and of course one ends up asking what is reality. The fact that we are able to willingly change the way our surrounding environment presents itself to us, by changing our brain chemistry is a tentative to rip asunder the veils that are inherent to our perceptional and cognitive apparatus.

I agree with you here. But I would like to add that there are other tools at our disposal which can in fact approach an objective model of reality, ie. science and maths. It is impossible to sensorily perceive or understand the basic rules that underlie the workings of the physical universe - in fact we know that at a subatomic level things work in ways which seem completely at odds with our everyday experience. But it is possible to make mathematical models which explain the way subatomic particles are observed to behave in scientific experiments. In fact, the computer technology we are using to have this conversation is dependent on this fact. That is why, unlike some posting here, I do believe in an objective universe that runs according to fixed laws, even if we cannot directly experience the way in which it works.
 
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I'm not trying to be an arse, here, but...
It is impossible to... understand the basic rules that underlie the workings of the physical universe...
I do believe in an objective universe that runs according to fixed laws, even if we cannot directly experience the way in which it works.
...
and if you want to read a systematic annihilation of logic, mathematics and philosophy look into Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and Philosophical Investigations... But maybe that's not what you're after... but this is related to DMT, I guess... so... shit happens sometimes; whether you like it or not..!
 
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^ In the first quote you deliberately excluded an essential part of the sentence! I said that "t is impossible to sensorily perceive or understand the basic rules that underlie the workings of the physical universe" and went on to say that is is possible to do so through mathematics. You deliberately misquoted me - you might not be 'trying to be an arse' by you are actually, demonstrably, and consistently a complete cunt.
 
Man, what a temper - don't talk philosophy unless you want to get picked-apart - that's what it's all about... I even gave you some books to read... try and help a nigger out - and get called a cunt... dear oh dear... I like you - in return - to balance out your negative brain-zaps...

Your belief in the fundamental truth of laws (and 'fixed-laws') of nature just doesn't hold true, if you look into it... Mathematics is not as infallibly-based as you seem to believe... but don't wanna burst your bubble... share and learn and grow in turn... maybe I'm not as stupid as you imagine me to be...
 
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^ Me picked apart? I completely trounced you in the argument we had on this thread, as everyone can see... oh shit, wait, they can't because you deleted all your posts pertaining to it, I wonder why that is. In your last post to me you told me that I shouldn't expect any sense out of you because you were talking to dead people earlier in the thread. And then you come back and twist my words in order to deliberately misrepresent what I had to say. So yeah, I have lost my temper with you, and with good reason.
 
ok you win... don't read any books on the philosophy of mathematics... and definitely stay away from DMT until you manage to loosen your rump a bit...
every one can see, true - but others see

with cosmovision... and... you can't trounce cosmic-seers with words - just the way it is, unfortunately.
Words carry
mean
in'
less

properties
 
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