Discussion: Vitamin C and MDMA (split from Six Rules)

[Tjackad-tullare]

Hi! I wonder if anybody know when is the best or most efficient to start and end to taking antioxidants before an MDMA/Serotonin drug session?
Like C-vitamin, Selenium, Alpha Lipoic Acid?

And if we talk building up serotonin with like 5-hpt when is it best to start with that? And stop and then begin again after the session?

Thanks!

 

[Folley]

^ Vitamin C is best taken 2 hours into the roll, when taken before that it will actually speed metabolism causing you to excrete the drug faster, thus being high for a shorter time.

Don't know about selenium, but ALA is best taken before a roll and should probably be taken for a day or two before dropping for it to be fully effective. Counter to that, 5-HTP should be taken only AFTER a roll to help regain serotonin that was originally lost. "Building up serotonin" really isn't a thing, there's only so much of it your body can produce/hold to begin with

 

[Tjackad-tullare]

^ Vitamin C is best taken 2 hours into the roll, when taken before that it will actually speed metabolism causing you to excrete the drug faster, thus being high for a shorter time.

Don't know about selenium, but ALA is best taken before a roll and should probably be taken for a day or two before dropping for it to be fully effective. Counter to that, 5-HTP should be taken only AFTER a roll to help regain serotonin that was originally lost. "Building up serotonin" really isn't a thing, there's only so much of it your body can produce/hold to begin with

Thanks for reply! The area where i bold marked is that true? How do you know that? I am not saying that your are wrong or anything but I didn't have a clue about that!

Ok! Do you know how many Mg Vitamin C you should take? as much as possible? and 2 hours after the roll begins or poppin the pill? ALA should i take "daily recommended" 800mg/day before the tripp?

At last 5-hpt.. Ok! i didnt know! thought you could build up a bit like "excessive serotonin". When is it possible to take 5-hpt after MDMA without causing serotonin syndrome? and how many days after do you recommend?

Sorry for all the questions, i have some own clues but i still want to be 100% sure and it feels like you got somewhat knowledge!

Cheers!

 

[Folley]

Very true! Often completely ignored as well haha.. it might make you feel the drug a minute or two quicker (which causes people to think they're getting higher) but it can cut a good 4-5 hour roll down to 3 hours from my experience



For 5-HTP it's OK to take it even 12 hours after a roll, although I'd probably just wait till the morning the day after. I've never tried it so I can't say exactly how long is necessary, but I believe the TPH enzyme (the reason to take 5-HTP) is back up and running after a week or two. I'd say to take it for about that long. When you stop taking it, start eating foods high in L-Tryptophan (turkey, tuna, beans/nuts.. etc) as it will be naturally converted to 5-HTP anyway

 

[Tjackad-tullare]

Very true! Often completely ignored as well haha.. it might make you feel the drug a minute or two quicker (which causes people to think they're getting higher) but it can cut a good 4-5 hour roll down to 3 hours from my experience



For 5-HTP it's OK to take it even 12 hours after a roll, although I'd probably just wait till the morning the day after. I've never tried it so I can't say exactly how long is necessary, but I believe the TPH enzyme (the reason to take 5-HTP) is back up and running after a week or two. I'd say to take it for about that long. When you stop taking it, start eating foods high in L-Tryptophan (turkey, tuna, beans/nuts.. etc) as it will be naturally converted to 5-HTP anyway

ah thanks!

by the way i was thinking of Fish Oil, they are high in OMEGA-3, doesn't that help the dopamine to recover? if so should i combine that with 5-hpt?

 

[xammy]

^ Vitamin C is best taken 2 hours into the roll, when taken before that it will actually speed metabolism causing you to excrete the drug faster, thus being high for a shorter time

Wow, thanks. I was wondering why my roll yesterday was so short. I rolled good for 2 hours and by 4 hours I was almost completely sober. Someone said it could be methylone, but this is the same batch I've rolled so good before. I took Vitamin C in the morning, and also 1-3hrs before MDMA. But I did physical activity also before MDMA so it really must be why it was so short if vitamin C speeds metabolism and also that excercise. I didnt know that But it was still very good, and I have no comedown feelings today at all. I took Vitamin C, magnesium, CoQ10, Fish oil, some multivitamin and Alpha Lipoic Acid(ALA before, during and after the roll) Also 200mg 5-HTP when I woke up today.

 

[JWills20]

Wow, thanks. I was wondering why my roll yesterday was so short. I rolled good for 2 hours and by 4 hours I was almost completely sober. Someone said it could be methylone, but this is the same batch I've rolled so good before. I took Vitamin C in the morning, and also 1-3hrs before MDMA. But I did physical activity also before MDMA so it really must be why it was so short if vitamin C speeds metabolism and also that excercise. I didnt know that But it was still very good, and I have no comedown feelings today at all. I took Vitamin C, magnesium, CoQ10, Fish oil, some multivitamin and Alpha Lipoic Acid(ALA before, during and after the roll) Also 200mg 5-HTP when I woke up today.

The vitamin C thing is a bit of a myth. One dose of MDMA lasting 4 hours is very normal and not an indicator of increased speed of metabolism. In fact I'd say that's what it's like for me every time. I feel almost sober by about 4 hours, but still on a nice light buzz that I enjoy for another 2-3 hours, so I can still dance and have a blast at the very end. It's actually a very good idea to take vitamin C before a roll because of it's anti-oxidant properties, which I'm sure you recognize with your hefty supplementing regime. I would actually recommend taking less supplements, simply on the basis that there is only so much your body can actually utilize, and more is just wasted. If you're taking vitamin C and also a multivitamin, you're probably taking like 5x times the amount of vitamin C you can actually use, the rest will just be shat out. This usually makes for a pretty nasty shit as well. If your shit is nasty, then it's probably because of all the dietary supplements. I'd say for the optimal post-load would be a multivitamin with balanced make-up of vitamins, the ALA as the main anti-oxidant, 5-HTP for serotonin production and an electrolyte sports drink to completely rehydrate.

 

[xammy]

How much Vitamin C can your body use in a day? rollsafe.org recommends something like 1-2g with MDMA - my vitamin C capsules contain only 80mg so I dont think I went overboard with it. Multivitamin something similar. I bought those effervescent tablets and year or two ago they were something like 1000mg per tablet, but now all I could find was those 80mg tablets. But it was just normal grocery shop, sure there are those 1000mg tablets around. Yeah I know that 2-3 hours roll is pretty normal, maybe MDMA just doesnt blow me away like the first time when I really couldnt care less about time. And last time I did shrooms + MDMA and rolled for good 4-5 hours so maybe thats why it felt so short. I did 120mg with 60mg redose yesterday

 

[Folley]

The vitamin C thing is a bit of a myth. One dose of MDMA lasting 4 hours is very normal and not an indicator of increased speed of metabolism. In fact I'd say that's what it's like for me every time. I feel almost sober by about 4 hours, but still on a nice light buzz that I enjoy for another 2-3 hours, so I can still dance and have a blast at the very end. It's actually a very good idea to take vitamin C before a roll because of it's anti-oxidant properties, which I'm sure you recognize with your hefty supplementing regime. I would actually recommend taking less supplements, simply on the basis that there is only so much your body can actually utilize, and more is just wasted. If you're taking vitamin C and also a multivitamin, you're probably taking like 5x times the amount of vitamin C you can actually use, the rest will just be shat out. This usually makes for a pretty nasty shit as well. If your shit is nasty, then it's probably because of all the dietary supplements. I'd say for the optimal post-load would be a multivitamin with balanced make-up of vitamins, the ALA as the main anti-oxidant, 5-HTP for serotonin production and an electrolyte sports drink to completely rehydrate.

How is that a myth? It is well documented that vitamin C decreases the effectiveness of amphetamines.

Using ascorbic acid together with amphetamine may decrease the effects of amphetamine. Contact your doctor if your condition changes. If your doctor does prescribe these medications together, you may need a dose adjustment or special test to safely use both medications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.
http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/amphetamine-with-vitamin-c-2543-0-238-3823.html

 

[JWills20]

How is that a myth? It is well documented that vitamin C decreases the effectiveness of amphetamines.

Well documented happening to be that one source. That source also not being specific to MDMA, rather more clinically focussed on ADHD-related amphetamines. Not only that, all it says is 'it may decrease the effects' and nothing regarding duration. For all we know that could be intensity. When googling 'Can vitamin C reduce the effects of MDMA' all I'm finding is 'Reduce MDMA-induced neurotoxicity with vitamin C'. Tried searching erowid and also come to a loose end. Doesn't look well documented at all. In fact I'm even finding some dumb shit about vitamin C increasing the effects, which is clearly false, but just a testiment to the power of the placebo effect. So if it comes down to anecdotal experience, I'm gunna go for set/setting and/or the placebo effect being the culprit in this one.

Most sources recommend taking vitamin C before a roll for it's antioxidant properties.

 

[Folley]

One source? You obviously have not done your homework.

What should I avoid?
This medication may impair your thinking or reactions. Be careful if you drive or do anything that requires you to be alert.

Do not take Adderall late in the day. A dose taken too late in the day can cause sleep problems (insomnia).

Avoid drinking fruit juices or taking vitamin C at the same time you take this medicine. Fruit juice and vitamin C can make your body absorb less of the amphetamine and dextroamphetamine.

http://www.drugs.com/adderall.html

DRUG INTERACTIONS
Acidifying agents

-Gastrointestinal acidifying agents (guanethidine, reserpine, glutamic acid HCl, ascorbic acid, fruit juices, etc.) lower absorption of amphetamines...
http://www.rxlist.com/adderall-drug/side-effects-interactions.htm

This is pharmacology 101!

Amphetamines are basic drugs and their excretion depends on the fraction of non-ionised to ionised in urine. Ascorbic acid is an acid hence it will make the urine acidic and will protonate the amphetamines as a result. The distal tubule cells in the lower urinary tract reabsorbs molecules which has no charged hence it will be maintained in the circulatory system. So amphetamines are maintained in the system because it is being reabsorbed (I think the pKa of amphetamines are higher than physiological pH so it won't be protonated). To stop the damaging effects of these drugs, ascorbic acid makes the urine acidic and prevents the amphetamines from being absorbed hence preventing further overdose.
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=40829.0

As to the actual changes in dopamine levels:

In view of evidence that the d-AMPH-induced voltammetric signal is similar to that for ascorbic acid (AA), but not dopamine (DA), a separate group of 12 animals received 1000 mg/kg AA (i.p.). In all cases, AA increased the electrochemical signal and in 7 animals this response was accompanied by an increase in firing rate. Our results, which demonstrate the feasibility of combining in vivo electrochemistry with single-unit electrophysiology, suggest that a d-AMPH-induced release of DA cannot completely explain the dose-dependent biphasic shift in neuronal activity produced by this drug in the neostriatum. Moreover, AA appears to be an effective modulator of neostriatal activity.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/000689938391288X

TOLBERT, L. C., T. N. THOMAS, L. D. MIDDAUGH AND J. W. ZEMP. Ascorbate blocks amphetamine-inducedturning behavior in rats with unilateral nigro-striatal lesions. BRAIN RES. BULL. 4(1) 43–48, 1979.—Unilateral nigro-striatal lesions were produced in rats using 6-hydroxydopamine. Intraperitoneal injections of amphetamine induced circling behavior in these rats due to release of striatal dopamine contralateral to the lesion. Intraperitoneal injections of 1 g/kg of ascorbic acid elevated brain ascorbate. Ascorbate, like other drugs blocking dopamine receptors, attenuated the amphetamine-induced turning behavior. Thus, ascorbic acid might have a role in regulating dopaminergic transmission and could be of therapeutic value in disorders involving functional dopamine excess.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/036192307990056X

To think that this is ONLY related to amphetamine is also foolish. You can find reports saying the exact same for methamphetamine, considering MDMA is very close to meth/amphetamine in action I fail to see how it could be any different. Ritalin and a number of other stimulants also share this trait. The highly acidic environment you are creating for these drugs in your stomach is not going to be of any help, certainly. Vitamin C is recommended to be taken 2 hours after the dose for patients who take stimulants, I would say the same for MDMA although I don't think we've fully studied into WHEN the actual damage is occurring, just that it happens sometime after we inject the rats and before we slice their brains open, hah.

I'm gunna go for set/setting and/or the placebo effect being the culprit in this one.

I'm not so sure if the powers of placebo work on rats.. 8)

 

[JWills20]

No I haven't done my homework - you're right. I simply did a google search to see if I could find good evidence and didn't find any. If it was well documented I simply thought I would find it quickly and easily. The only reasonable looking source is the drugs.com which still doesn't necessarily specify to MDMA, but whether that is relevant I do not know. The rat studies mean nothing in this context. In the first one the rats took 1000mg/kg which 'modulated neostriatal activity'. How is that relevant to taking human doses with MDMA and how is that anything to do with DA release from MDMA. More specifically, how does that go any way in validating your claim that vitamin C will 'speed metabolism causing you to excrete the drug faster, thus being high for a shorter time'. The answer is it doesn't.

Second one is even more farfetched. Rats with brain damage who have been pumped with amphetamine to the point where there turning in circles (presumably from DA-induced psychosis and excessive motor activity) are relieved from turning symptoms from monsterous doses (1g/kg) of ascorbic acid. And because of this, when humans take doses not even remotely near 1g/kg, with a related but different drug, and without brain damage, we might see reduced duration of that experience because of increased speed of metabolism and higher excretion. Good one.

It seems like your reasoning behind the original statement has evolved from 'increased speed of metabolism' and onto something DA related by the looks of the science you posted. If vitamin C did have some effects on DA, they would be far less pronounced for MDMA than other amphetamines because MDMA's effects are produced, primarily, by serotonin. You can avoid telling me that DA is just as important as you have before, because it's not. Sure, it's the whole 5-HT/DA/NE release that produces the overall experience, but serotonin is the main driving factor. So if your argument is DA-related then it would not effect MDMA like it would ADHD stimulants which are all about DA/NE. Perhaps this is why vitamin C should be avoided with ADHD stimulants, such as adderall/vyvanse, and why it's less easy to find this clear information for MDMA. Obviously MDMA is studied less too, I don't know really.

The pharmacology source is nothing specific to subjective effects, or specifically duration, either. They're talking about amphetamine overdoses and, presumably, high doses of vitamin C to force urination and subsequent removal of the drug. Once more, out of context. I'm not trying to bash you Folley - you could be absolutely right that regular human doses of vitamin C could reduce amphetamine-related effects (the drugs.com source is fair), but avoid posting science completely out of context in some vain hope to prove your point.

 

[Folley]

Lol. You're back peddling now..

Ascorbate, like other drugs blocking dopamine receptors, attenuated the amphetamine-induced turning behavior. Thus, ascorbic acid might have a role in regulating dopaminergic transmission and could be of therapeutic value in disorders involving functional dopamine excess.

To say dopamine doesn't play a major role with MDMA is significantly flawed as well. I'm sure you'd say the same about norepinephrine, right? Yet when you take an NRI with MDMA it blocks a LARGE amount of the effects... serotonin is very important, but you cannot underplay the roles the other neurochemicals play.

Originally I thought it was due to a "speeding of metabolism"... I was wrong. Another study said that amphetamine and vitamin C actually did not alter the pharmacodynamics of the drugs, but that there did appear to be "anti-amphetamine" effects from and that it must be through some other action in which this is occurring.



Oh, and to say my studies aren't in context.. do you know what the Striatum is? it would be the inside part of the forebrain, the part that controls everything from social inhibition to memory and even movement. It also has a LARGE amount of dopamine receptors related to the reward pathways.

 

[kottonmouthrollin1]

id deffinitly say that your issue is that the mdma your able to aquire is poopp no offence but idsay iv prolly snorted well over 5thousand pills worth of pure mdma since i was seventeen and im comming up on 25 in ten days try and find some better stuff and if youve gottin to the point of feeling numb then thats pretty much on your own accord cause theres something about your life that your not happy about and you need to rute out the issues you have pending

 

[kottonmouthrollin1]

One source? You obviously have not done your homework.










As to the actual changes in dopamine levels:





To think that this is ONLY related to amphetamine is also foolish. You can find reports saying the exact same for methamphetamine, considering MDMA is very close to meth/amphetamine in action I fail to see how it could be any different. Ritalin and a number of other stimulants also share this trait. The highly acidic environment you are creating for these drugs in your stomach is not going to be of any help, certainly. Vitamin C is recommended to be taken 2 hours after the dose for patients who take stimulants, I would say the same for MDMA although I don't think we've fully studied into WHEN the actual damage is occurring, just that it happens sometime after we inject the rats and before we slice their brains open, hah.





I'm not so sure if the powers of placebo work on rats.. 8)

first off i wanna start by saying this guy is a moron and to believe anything that a goverment funded and or government informational web site witch it seems like most of this nonsence that this guy has posted so heres my point yes the m.a. in the abbriviation m.d.m.a. is meth amphetemine and yes it has a simular molecular structure but it is nothing like meth a natural oil from a naturally growing plant is harvested from sassafrass forgive me if my spelling is a little off but i cant stand when someone bad mouths somethings that they know absolutly nothing about so as i was saying safrile oil is extracted from sassafrass witch is then taken and stripped down buy an acitone witch then it crystalizes into mdma as to where you needd batterys and some gasoline and some other choice chemicals that cause for some extreamly explosive responces when direct flame is applied to said meth and no explosions occure when direct flame is applied m.d.m.a

 

[Folley]

^ LOL. MDMA is a psychedelic amphetamine with serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine release amongst a number of other chemicals. Methamphetamine is a stimulative amphetamine with dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine release. To say they are not similar is just denying facts. I am not bad mouthing anything, I LOVE MDMA... however I will not downplay it's risks either, because in all honestly MDMA abuse has more potential for damage than methamphetamine abuse as far as overall long term health of the receptors is concerned.

so as i was saying safrile oil is extracted from sassafrass witch is then taken and stripped down buy an acitone witch then it crystalizes into mdma as to where you needd batterys and some gasoline and some other choice chemicals that cause for some extreamly explosive responces when direct flame is applied to said meth and no explosions occure when direct flame is applied m.d.m.a

Uh, yeah. I'm sure you know what you're talking about 8) let's leave all that science "nonsense" out of this and listen to this guy instead

 

[MagickalKat777]

Per Folley's request, I opened up a new thread so this discussion can be continued. Keep the insults, sarcasm, and other nonsense out of it or it will be closed and warnings will go out.

 

[Folley]

thanks MK, looking sexy as usual bby

 

[MagickalKat777]

thanks MK, looking sexy as usual bby

I can't take a few days to recover from an infection without you piling up work for me lmao.

 

[Wicked702]

idsay iv prolly snorted well over 5thousand pills worth of pure mdma since i was seventeen and im comming up on 25 in ten days

Let's do the math on that.

25-17 = 8 years (Let's include your 17th year and call it 9 years for fun.)

5000 pills / 9 years = ~555.5 pills/year = 1.52 pills/day

Uh....wow.