⭐️ Social ⭐️ Debate I had over drug legalization/decriminalization with a meth head (your opinion?)

[stupotmc]

Only if you don't mind losing limbs regularly and want to die very soon.

https://www.alltreatment.com/blog/krokodil-flesh-eating-homemade-russian-heroin/

 

[stupotmc]

I'm only playing Devil's advocate here.

There are families of hundreds of thousands of people who died from those other drugs that would maybe think they are just as bad.

PS-- Also I think that if people had access to good drugs, shit like crocodil would disappear.

That's very true

 

[stupotmc]

So are there any drugs you think should not be decriminalised. ?

 

[jasperkent]

So are there any drugs you think should not be decriminalised. ?

No.

I've thought about (and researched & debated) this issue for over 50 years. This is the stand I've firmly settled upon.

 

[stupotmc]

Why.so? I'm talking decriminalised not legalised? So you researched it before it became a political issue?

 

[jasperkent]

Again, I think all drugs should be legal for adults to use in private.
I have never, in my 64 years on this planet, ever met someone who chooses not to do drugs because they are illegal.

(edit) ....and i've known many who have died or had their lives ruined because they are illegal.

 

[stupotmc]

I'm only playing Devil's advocate here.

There are families of hundreds of thousands of people who died from those other drugs that would maybe think they are just as bad.

PS-- Also I think that if people had access to good drugs, shit like krocodil would disappear.

Again, I think all drugs should be legal for adults to use in private.
I have never, in my 64 years on this planet, ever met someone who chooses not to do drugs because they are illegal.

Again, I think all drugs should be legal for adults to use in private.
I have never, in my 64 years on this planet, ever met someone who chooses not to do drugs because they are illegal.

I am not meaning to be argumentative. Aren't all drugs used in privacy. People don't generally sit in a public square and shoot. The point with me is the misuse and misinformed involved in recovery medicines. A lotta people think being in a program will stop them chasing but it's the opposite in my country and once you're on a opiate blacklist you can't even receive them in palative care. Maintenance should be available at every chemist without prescription

 

[Vastness]

This poll sucks. Decriminalization isn't the same as legalization. I think all drugs should be legalized. This doesn't mean there should be no controls, obviously there should be some controls, just controls that aren't so severe that they create black markets, cartels, and skyrocketing prison populations.

I understand the perspective of the person mentioned unflatteringly in your post, the "meth head", but their perspective is obviously distorted by the problems they've had with meth and therefore they are probably not capable of looking at the situation objectively. This is unfortunately pretty common, some people eventually come around to a more balanced perspective but many people with histories of substance use problems do maintain a reactionary anti-drug position for a long time, and 12 Step organizations, sadly, play a large part in sustaining these black and white all or nothing absolutist viewpoints with their equally black and white all or nothing absolutist and thoroughly unscientific conception of addiction and substance use problems.

You wouldn't expect someone who's family member had just been killed or the victim of some other violent crime with an obvious perpetrator to give a rational assessment of the ethics of the death penalty, neither should you expect someone in the midst of an obviously problematic substance addiction to give a rational assessment on drug policy.

 

[stupotmc]

Decriminalisation takes age restriction and resale into account. Legalisation doesn't bud. Among other things. P.S you're comparison to homicide is ridiculous. I can't think of a better person to discuss corporal punish not do I think users aren't qualified to talk about the drug policy. Are you suggesting we leave it to a referendum that will be shot down in flames.

 

[jasperkent]

Decriminalisation takes age restriction and resale into account. Legalisation doesn't bud.

Wrong.
A 10-yr-old cannot purchase alcohol, for instance.

 

[stupotmc]

Antigua + Barbuda
Argentina
Armenia
Australian States: South Australia, Australian Capital Territory, Northern Australia
Belize
Bolivia
Chile
Colombia
Costa Rica
Croatia
Czech Republic
Estonia
Germany
Italy
Jamaica
Mexico
Netherlands
Paraguay
Peru
Poland
Portugal
South Africia
Spain
Switzerland
United States of America: Alaska, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington D.C.
Uruguay
Virgin Islands
Have all decriminalised drugs. Start with decriminalised drugs first then worry about the problems with legalisation

 

[stupotmc]

Wrong.
A 10-yr-old cannot purchase alcohol, for instance.

That's exactly my point. Decriminalised drugs would be for adults

 

[stupotmc]

I walk down a broken street in search of my Promised Land, I'm on a mission from God and my God's name is Heroin. In the distance I can hear the gunfire, I'm in a holy war, my sergeant's named desire. I walk past other junkies nodding out against a wall, We're fighting the same cause, fighting against withdrawal. I reach my destination, I talk with the man, I hand him twenty pounds and he puts my God in my hand. Heroin you must be God for everything I do is for you,

I'd crawl ten miles on broken glass for you. I'd sell my soul, my family and friends for you, If you asked me to sell myself, I'd do that too, You can see I'm truly nothing, nothing without you. But if you're really God, you leave me confused, At times I feel like I've really been used. You leave me shivering when it's not really cold,

Unable to walk and I'm not even old.

You leave me penniless when I'm not even poor,

You leave me feeling beaten, aching and sore.

You take away my pride, my looks and my health,

Make me lie to my family, my friends and myself. Although for you I have dedicated my life, What have you done for me except stabbed me with a knife? I look in the mirror at my own bloodshot eyes, I stare at a man whose world is all lies. I think about my past and start to realize, You're not a God at all, but the Devil in disguise.

 

[Vastness]

Decriminalisation takes age restriction and resale into account. Legalisation doesn't bud

"Bud", you have this backwards. Without legalisation there is no legal framework to control the supply. It seems like you contradicted yourself about this immediately anyway though with your acknowledgement of alcohol's legal status.

Yes decriminalisation will almost certainly have to come first but it is a half measure that acknowledges that outright prohibition is not working while still attempting to maintain a "partial prohibition" which will have all the same problems (even if, ideally, lesser in magnitude). Yes decriminalisation is better than nothing but legalisation has to be the end goal or decriminalisation is just a nonsensical idea.

Regarding homicide, I'm not 100% sure what point you're actually making here but you seem to be advocating for some kind of vengeance based justice system, you're saying the family of someone who has just been killed by someone else are going to be best equipped psychologically to make an objective rational assessment on whether or not the person who killed their family member should be executed?

No I'm not saying users cannot decide things, I'm saying that someone who you yourself identify as a "meth head" and who they themselves confesses that despite continuing to use meth, they have such a negative perception of how it's affected their lives that they think meth should be completely illegal (as it already is, but, more illegal, I guess?) even though that would make them more of a criminal in the eyes of the state than they already are and certainly would not improve their lives... is probably not someone thinking rationally about this topic.

 

[stupotmc]

"Bud", you have this backwards. Without legalisation there is no legal framework to control the supply. It seems like you contradicted yourself about this immediately anyway though with your acknowledgement of alcohol's legal status.

Yes decriminalisation will almost certainly have to come first but it is a half measure that acknowledges that outright prohibition is not working while still attempting to maintain a "partial prohibition" which will have all the same problems (even if, ideally, lesser in magnitude). Yes decriminalisation is better than nothing but legalisation has to be the end goal or decriminalisation is just a nonsensical idea.

Regarding homicide, I'm not 100% sure what point you're actually making here but you seem to be advocating for some kind of vengeance based justice system, you're saying the family of someone who has just been killed by someone else are going to be best equipped psychologically to make an objective rational assessment on whether or not the person who killed their family member should be executed?

No I'm not saying users cannot decide things, I'm saying that someone who you yourself identify as a "meth head" and who they themselves confesses that despite continuing to use meth, they have such a negative perception of how it's affected their lives that they think meth should be completely illegal (as it already is, but, more illegal, I guess?) even though that would make them more of a criminal in the eyes of the state than they already are and certainly would not improve their lives... is probably not someone thinking rationally about this topic.

I have never referred to myself as a Meth head. I've tried but do not use regularly and in regards to homicide it was in reply to a post by to a post by YOU. I'm afraid we shall have to disagree. I think what you would like will not happen in my lifetime.

 

[stupotmc]

I have never referred to myself as a Meth head. I've tried but do not use regularly and in regards to homicide it was in reply to a post by to a post by YOU. I'm afraid we shall have to disagree. I think what you would like will not happen in my lifetime.

I've always believed the most relevant opinion makers are the one's who have walked the path. No matter what situation. Jury selection does not discriminate against life experience. Nor should society exclude the passionate. I don't advocate the death penalty ffs , there are too many innocents on death row but after a long time in gaol I do think I have more say than others about the rights of inmates. Familiarity doesn't always breed contempt and I think you over simplify and over complicate all at once.

 

[Pickledlemons]

I don't personally see how the arguments for lighter drugs being legalized doesn't apply even more to harder drugs. Still, the money is being taken tax free and fueling criminal organizations instead of schools and roads, still money is being wasted on enforcement, still people get poor quality drugs with inconsistent dosing, still people are dying from stigma.

All drugs should be legalized including meth, crack, fentanyl, infact those 3 are the most important. Give a trusted product free of adulterants, give consistent strength to reduce overdoses, give needles to reduce infections and give rehab to those who want it, but not those who don't ( cause otherwise its just waste of money - people quit when they are ready). I really don't get carving out an exception for fentanyl.

 

[Pickledlemons]

If heroin were legal, fentanyl would go away.

Maybe 20 years ago, but I think its too late now. People are addicted to fentanyl, thats the new realty, they don't want heroin, its not strong enough.

 

[stupotmc]

I've always believed the most relevant opinion makers are the one's who have walked the path. No matter what situation. Jury selection does not discriminate against life experience. Nor should society exclude the passionate. I don't advocate the death penalty ffs , there are too many innocents on death row but after a long time in gaol I do think I have more say than others about the rights of inmates. Familiarity doesn't always breed contempt and I think you over simplify and over complicate all at once.

Maybe 20 years ago, but I think its too late now. People are addicted to fentanyl, thats the new realty, they don't want heroin, its not strong enough.

Maybe 20 years ago, but I think its too late now. People are addicted to fentanyl, thats the new realty, they don't want heroin, its not strong enough.

It is strong enough . It's just been cut to shit. Mg to mg probably still not as strong as fent, but it will f.u.u

 

[Vastness]

I have never referred to myself as a Meth head. I've tried but do not use regularly and in regards to homicide it was in reply to a post by to a post by YOU. I'm afraid we shall have to disagree. I think what you would like will not happen in my lifetime.

My bad, I mistook you for the OP with the "meth head" thing. I wasn't referring to you as being the meth addict though, I was talking about the person mentioned in the topic title.

The homicide thing I was also just replying to what you said but nevermind, if the point of the analogy isn't self evident it isn't really worth explaining it.

You may be right with your last sentence but I hope that you are wrong!