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DEA propose to ban precursors

paracelsius

paracelsius

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Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
197
including bunch of substituted propiophenones, NaBH4 and ... thioglycolic acid (its salts esters..etc). Am I missing something here: I can understand phenones, NaBH4..etc but thioglycolate?? the stinky substance used as depilator to remove hair?? what is it used for beside that?...
oh btw: again one of the stupidity of drug laws: ban NaBH4 and ppl switch to KBH4 (not that much difference!! oh well The law is law
 
I'm shocked that you can still get pseudoephedrine and ephedrine without a prescription.

Drugs are relatively easy to make, and there are so many ways to make them, and other drugs, banning precursors is stupid.

Just a waste of time to justify someone's salary at a 3 letter agency.
 
paracelsius said:
including bunch of substituted propiophenones, NaBH4 and ... thioglycolic acid (its salts esters..etc). Am I missing something here: I can understand phenones, NaBH4..etc but thioglycolate?? the stinky substance used as depilator to remove hair?? what is it used for beside that?...
oh btw: again one of the stupidity of drug laws: ban NaBH4 and ppl switch to KBH4 (not that much difference!! oh well The law is law
Click to expand...

KBH4 isn't very soluble in methanol... but any chemical engineer will find a solvent mixture to overcome that issue.

Can thioglycolic acid be used to produce phenylacetic acid?

FYI in Europe, Russian-made P2P is sold everywhere, If they cannot control the existing list, adding to it just waters it down. Piperidine is banned so the Chinese just ship it as N-methyl pyrrolidine.

An unenforceable law is worse than NO law because it merely offers yet another layer of semi-legal product for sale on the grey market. Often the Russians produce the bisulfite abduct - a totally LEGAL solid. I'm certain it's possible to produce said abduct without ever producing a controlled compound... and WHO looks for P2P as a solid? Cyanide will form a similar and equally legal abduct.

ibb.co

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Just store under dry nitrogen. You can 100% just use the IUPAC name, it's legal. The Russians doing this sell on-line and even their website is pretty professional. They also sell methyl ammonium bicarbonate (a methylamine salt) which also appears to be as uncontrolled as the US.

The also sell NaBH4 & KBH4 as well as solvents which kind of suggests that SOMEONE has overcome the limited solubility of KBH4 in methanol. I have never checked the solubility of KBH3CN or indeed that of other salts. It might be interesting to read the chemical and physical properties of methyl ammonium borohydride & methyl ammonium cyanoborohydride.... It would be quite funny if it reduces an imine and releases a molecule of methylamine....

Also, how about the 2-bromo propiophenone or any of the longer chain homologues or ring-substituted propiophenones?

Whoever came up with this list has zero knowledge about just how adaptable clandestine chemists are. I'm told that in Russia they use aspirin to convert M to H (transesterification). So will we see a ban?
 
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AlsoTapered said:
FYI in Europe, Russian-made P2P is sold everywhere, If they cannot control the existing list, adding to it just waters it down. Piperidine is banned so the Chinese just ship it as N-methyl pyrrolidine.

An unenforceable law is worse than NO law because it merely offers yet another layer of semi-legal product for sale on the black market.
Click to expand...
^ This. In addition unenforceable laws make it all the easier to target people SUBJECTIVELY. As well as confuses citizens.

example of this would be 1.4 butanediol. I do not know if I can legally order it or not; so I don't. If I were desperate or young or stupid I do not know that I would see it that way.
I do not know or understand its legal status and it seems a bit confusing. Non listed benzos kind of the same thing.

Unclear and subjective. Both in a twilight of legal and not legal. Neither of which are "fake drugs" or "poor mans" xyz for lack of a better term.
 
G_Chem said:
Can we get a list of all the precursors?

-GC
Click to expand...
DEA is proposing to update the Special Surveillance List by adding the following laboratory supplies to the existing Special Surveillance Chemicals, including their salts whenever the existence of such salts is possible:

(2-nitroprop-1-en-1-yl)benzene (1-phenyl-2-nitropropene; P2NP)

1-(4-bromophenyl)propan-1-one

1-(4-chlorophenyl)propan-1-one

1-(4-methylphenyl)propan-1-one

1-benzylpiperidin-4-one ( N -benzyl-4-piperidone)

1-chloro-N-methyl-1-phenylpropan-2-amine (chloroephedrine; chloropseudoephedrine)

1-phenylbutan-1-one

1-phenylpentan-1-one

1-phenylpropan-1-one

2-bromo-1-(4-chlorophenyl)propan-1-one

2-bromo-1-(4-methoxyphenyl)propan-1-one

2-bromo-1-(4-methylphenyl)propan-1-one

2-bromo-1-phenylpentan-1-one

2-bromo-1-phenylpropan-1-one

3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylic acid (BMK glycidic acid; P2P glycidic acid) and its esters (e.g. methyl 3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylate (BMK methyl glycidate); ethyl 3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylate (BMK ethyl glycidate))

phenethyl bromide ((2-bromoethyl)benzene)

3-oxo-2-phenylbutanoic acid and its esters ( e.g., alpha-phenylacetoacetic acid; ethyl 3-oxo-2-phenylbutanoate (EAPA))

5-(2-nitroprop-1-en-1-yl)benzodioxole (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-nitropropene; 3,4-MDP2NP)

azobisisobutyronitrile

butane-1,4-diol (1,4-butanediol)

ethyl 3-oxo-4-phenylbutanoate

ethyl-3-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-methyloxirane-2-carboxylate (3,4-MDP-2-P ethyl glycidate)

methyl 2-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-3-oxobutanoate (MAMDPA; MDMAPA)

propionyl chloride

sodium borohydride

sodium triacetoxyborohydride

tert-butyl 4-((4-fluorophenyl)amino)piperidine-1-carboxylate (para -fluoro 1-boc-4-AP)


thioglycolic acid and its esters ( e.g., methyl thioglycolate)

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...ials-and-equipment-used-in-the-manufacture-of
Click to expand...
 
AlsoTapered said:
Can thioglycolic acid be used to produce phenylacetic acid?

FYI in Europe, Russian-made P2P is sold everywhere, If they cannot control the existing list, adding to it just waters it down. Piperidine is banned so the Chinese just ship it as N-methyl pyrrolidine.

An unenforceable law is worse than NO law because it merely offers yet another layer of semi-legal product for sale on the black market.

Also, how about the 2-bromo propiophenone or any of the longer chain homologues or ring-substituted propiophenones?

Whoever came up with this list has zero knowledge about just how adaptable clandestine chemists are. I'm told that in Russia they use aspirin to convert M to H (transesterification). So will we see a ban?
Click to expand...
possible but there are way cheaper routes. My guess is probably to convert D-Phenylanine (that you can buy kilos for 100 bucks or less) to (S)-(meth)amphetamine: iirc there is a huge thread on that issues on vesp (D-Phe-->Dextro(meth)amph). But could be totally different use which I am not aware of hence OP.. Y'all have Good'day
 
smokeymcpot42088 said:
^ This. In addition unenforceable laws make it all the easier to target people SUBJECTIVELY. As well as confuses citizens.

example of this would be 1.4 butanediol. I do not know if I can legally order it or not; so I don't. If I were desperate or young or stupid I do not know that I would see it that way.
I do not know or understand its legal status and it seems a bit confusing. Non listed benzos kind of the same thing.

Unclear and subjective. Both in a twilight of legal and not legal. Neither of which are "fake drugs" or "poor mans" xyz for lack of a better term.
Click to expand...

1,4-BDO is legal to order if not for human consumption. Ive gotten tons of it shipped over the years and never had an issue, tho no packages have been intercepted either. You can get it from China in bulk cheap. But generally i just get it from vendors in the states for a markup and not have to wait on customs.

Its a great drug honestly, like a time released version of GHB. Ive gone through phases were i use it pretty heavily and then i take extended breaks for a year or so. But when i do use i will generally make a 30ml vial and go through it in a few days. Then i cut myself off so i dont get addicted.
 
Dead Machination said:
I'm shocked that you can still get pseudoephedrine and ephedrine without a prescription.

Drugs are relatively easy to make, and there are so many ways to make them, and other drugs, banning precursors is stupid.

Just a waste of time to justify someone's salary at a 3 letter agency.
Click to expand...
Yes, but you can only buy so much of it. I'm still trying to figure out if you can do anything with Phenylephrine. If there were a process to make anything from that, then you've cracked the code of making something from Phenylephrine instead of Pseudoephedrine.
 
As always, they will make it much harder to get precursors, especially in bulk, but because the black market is so established, some people will of course have access to them. The black market is far too lucrative, and far too many people making money off of the drug trade, including governments and such, can only do so much. It's a cat and mouse game, as always.
 
BTW am I the only one to notice that [(1E)-2-nitroprop-1-en-1-yl]benzene, (2-nitropropyl)benzene and any ring-substituted derivatives are CERTAINLY not controlled in the UK.

I knew a guy who use to make them and had 1 customer who bought 250kg of (2-nitropropyl)benzene, cash, for over 20 years.

Now, the guy was most certainly ex-SIS and I think they JUST told the police NOT to look. I won't name the company but I'm almost certain some other UK/EU-based members will know who I'm talking about - the one whose site had a picture of 'lab cat'.
 
What is AIBN a precursor for? Is it used as a radical initiator in some synthesis?
 
Skorpio said:
What is AIBN a precursor for? Is it used as a radical initiator in some synthesis?
Click to expand...
It's used as a radical initiator along with methyl thioglycolate in the racemization of l-meth.

IMG-3128.jpg

 
4meSM said:
Yeah, I wish they would just stop funding the DEA. What good have they achieved anyway? Increasing the number of overdoses? Replacing one drug warlord with another ?
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In my opinion, all the DEA has ever done is pushed relatively safer drugs underground, and had them replaced with drugs that are infinitely more lethal and potent. Making cannabis illegal, and pushing K2 or spice at gas stations is a perfect example.

If you pay attention to public opinion of the war on drugs, around 2010, most people were starting to realize that the DEA and the "war" on drugs was a bunch of bullshit. Then, all of a sudden, this incredibly dangerous drug (fentanyl) that was dropping people like flies came out and justified the DEA's budget again.

The DEA doesn't want fentanyl to go away, because if it did they wouldn't have jobs anymore
 
I was aware that radical initiators were being used to racemize (R) methamphetamine but the DEA lists azobisisobutyronitrile as the only such initiator ever found in a seizure... but I stand corrected - thiols ARE mentioned by the DEA. But no specific compounds.


I even found a paper (a quick search you understand).

I wonder if 1-(1-benzofuran-6-yl)propan-2-one (and related compounds that are direct precursors to 5/6 (M)APB? I noted they aren't covered by UK law and with MD-P2P now supposedly fetching $15000/Kg since people are now having to buy the appropriate glycidate esters/salts which lose quite a lot of MW when converted the MD-P2P.

Also, neither 2-methyl-3-phenylpropanamide (I think I'm naming the correct compound) nor any of it's ring-substituted derivatives are listed as precursors. It was mentioned in an old British book with a chapter on amphetamine synthesis. The related Curtis rearrangement was also mentioned.

Imagine simply offering the above compounds for sale. I don't think their is even any export control but folks in the UK may tell me that in their locale, those precursors ARE controlled.

Just imagine - a Chinese vendor would HAPPILY provide the amide that leads to 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo amphetamine. Now, I've never sampled them and never wish to since reports note long duration and stimulation so it's not for me. But I feel QUITE sure that some shady f*cks would jump at the chance to make millions of doses of faux-LSD.

And those are just things I recall having read years ago. If I REALLY sat down and studied them, I could be the next 'Strike' except I wouldn't sell people hods of HUGE borosiilicate lab-equipement AND 50l of safrole.... I mean, NICE GUY but no sense whatsoever.

Until it's banned, selling BOL-148 & NaBH4 offers the amateur chemist access to REAL LSD (not the rubbish people from the Shrromery have recently been posting). It's in a Japanese paper where they wanted to radio-label LSD so they used NaBD4. Yield is only 78%.... OK, so put 24% extra on each tab. The lumi and homo isomers aren't particularly toxic...
 
The DEA banning AIBN is silly. It's used as a super common radical initiator in industry and research. And if they ban it, next they have to ban benzoyl peroxide, then ban UV lights plus dye, etc. - there are a hell of a lot of radical initiators and you do not need a ton.

(also, dirty secret, there is a patent for racemizing N-alkylamphetamines by simply heating the freebase over nickel catalyst... what's next, will they ban nickel?)

Same with banning sodium borohydride or triacetoxyborohydride. Good luck. (You can make the latter from the former by using... acetic acid. Hard synthesis)

I am surprised that P2NP is supposedly still legal as are the immediate precursors to mephedrone. Strange...

> I'm still trying to figure out if you can do anything with Phenylephrine.
Bin it and go buy a real drug precursor. Phenylephrine was rushed to market because you can't do anything interesting with it, as it's not an amphetamine derivative like ephedrine & also has a pesky 3-OH. (Also it has like 2% oral BA).
 
The DEA doesn't actually 'ban' anything. It provides 'reporting thresholds'. BUT it only appears to refer to sales within the US. I guess EVERY nation only cares about it's OWN drug problems. Let us see what they set those thresholds are...

But I think we have underlined the fact that they are simply moving more and more trade to China.

Piperidine sent as N-methyl pyrrolidine is so common that ALL Chinese suppliers use it....

And given PCPy uses pyrrolidine... they will simply make people produce something FAR more potent.

I suppose they are well raised AVERAGE collage graduates who salute the flag, know all the words to the national anthem and BELIEVE in what they are doing... which is ensuring they have a job until they reach retirement age so they can collect their full pension.

I don't hate them, but I'm sure nobody TOO able would ever work for them. Anyone GOOD would be in industry... or doing what WE do.. which at least is fun.
 
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