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Health Consequences of Ketamine Capitalism

danamine said:
The wackest part of it is that regular ketamine has shown to be more effective than s-ketamine (sprivato) intreating depression
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Not to be devils advocate but if S and R,S is almost as good I would prescribe S simply as it’s 25% stronger (bladder damage is dependant on dose to some extent for sure). And would prefer S for personal recreational/antidepressant effects use for same reason. But idiotic idea that you can get patent for isomer leading to silly prices, wtf... No one selling/prescribing R,S, how the fuck? Weirdly sad world.....
 
Want to get Psygen to get a patent for R-mxe. Best antidepressant available, and I don't want any money, for it. I want people saved from hideous depression. As I said to my late wife, I I can leave this world a better place I was born into, I can die a happy man.
Fuck money, I want the place a happier place. That simple...
 
fastandbulbous said:
Want to get Psygen to get a patent for R-mxe. Best antidepressant available, and I don't want any money, for it. I want people saved from hideous depression. As I said to my late wife, I I can leave this world a better place I was born into, I can die a happy man.
Fuck money, I want the place a happier place. That simple...
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Patents are part of what drives the for-profit medical model that is being decried in this thread. But regardless of whether or not Psygen patents anything, any product from a government-approved manufacturer/distributor like them will presumably only be available through clinics using similar marketing tactics as the ones currently pushing ketamine, at a price much higher than what one might find on the black market. What do you mean by "I don't want any money from it"? I'm puzzled
 
fastandbulbous said:
Want to get Psygen to get a patent for R-mxe. Best antidepressant available, and I don't want any money, for it. I want people saved from hideous depression. As I said to my late wife, I I can leave this world a better place I was born into, I can die a happy man.
Fuck money, I want the place a happier place. That simple...
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I have NO problem if you would be earning huge amounts of money from R-mxe but let’s face it, if approved and sold to people in need (for 100% medical use only in a manner similar to K now) you’re looking into millions and millions and millions of £ for you, your family, manufacturer, seller, prescriber and therapist at price 10 – 100£ per dose. O yeah, MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people are eligible (is that the right word?) for K therapy and believe it or not price is only reason why most of them wont experience it. Get the numbers right and soon it would be as likely most people would have it covered for once a month session even if it would be almost as pricey as now K, why, I guess you know… In case you don’t, small, by USA standards purely symbolic participation covers 100% of production and related costs and easily leaves millions in earnings or to cover, well hell, to caver cost of someone watching you during administration/experience if needed or to provide it as spray for a symbolic price, again just enough to earn more than a bit. A recreational/strong therapeutic dose of MXE could be produced for a price in penies on industrial scale legally.
 
venture caplitalist:

"wow, ketamine therapy is expensive af! better buy it from a drug dealer"

ffs if jared can't even afford infusions...
 
Or if you are desperate enough and can’t find it otherwise or don’t want to use illegal channels for some reason you deserve to be able to find it. I couldn't put a price on my first dose of LSD, what I got was priceless, some will find K like that too and think that too, fuck it, if it saves people from suicide, you can’t put a price on that. Fact that economical speaking price is far from a fair price, but a lot of things are.
 
Yeah that's true - whatever helps people is good but it's sad to see them being fleeced.
 
Ismene2 said:
Yeah that's true - whatever helps people is good but it's sad to see them being fleeced.
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Sometimes people dont appreciate handouts or cheap investments.
If someone pays 1000 dollar for the same treatment that should cost 50.
Then the likelyhood of the expensive treatment will be alot more effective.

Probably just placebo, but alot of people feel that they want the best but they dont trust cheaper options even if its the exact same service.
 
That's indeed a real phenomenon, as absurd as it may sound. People feel assured if they're invested in something. It's like using the sunken-cost fallacy for correction purposes, for clearing them pesky doubts.

Also explains fashion.
 
blistersinthedark said:
Patents are part of what drives the for-profit medical model that is being decried in this thread. But regardless of whether or not Psygen patents anything, any product from a government-approved manufacturer/distributor like them will presumably only be available through clinics using similar marketing tactics as the ones currently pushing ketamine, at a price much higher than what one might find on the black market. What do you mean by "I don't want any money from it"? I'm puzzled
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Couldn't give a fuck if it made Psygen a big player, in the pharma market. I have more than enough money to see me ok for the rest of my life. I'd jus like to think I did something that made the world a better place (an honorary Ph.D. from Sunderland uni, wouldn't go amiss!!). My desire to make the world a better place is one of the reasons my wife said she loved me. What more could I ask for?
 
SpiralusSancti said:
I have NO problem if you would be earning huge amounts of money from R-mxe but let’s face it, if approved and sold to people in need (for 100% medical use only in a manner similar to K now) you’re looking into millions and millions and millions of £ for you, your family, manufacturer, seller, prescriber and therapist at price 10 – 100£ per dose. O yeah, MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people are eligible (is that the right word?) for K therapy and believe it or not price is only reason why most of them wont experience it. Get the numbers right and soon it would be as likely most people would have it covered for once a month session even if it would be almost as pricey as now K, why, I guess you know… In case you don’t, small, by USA standards purely symbolic participation covers 100% of production and related costs and easily leaves millions in earnings or to cover, well hell, to caver cost of someone watching you during administration/experience if needed or to provide it as spray for a symbolic price, again just enough to earn more than a bit. A recreational/strong therapeutic dose of MXE could be produced for a price in penies on industrial scale legally.
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I believe medicine for profit is disgusting. My grandad said the day the NHS came into existence was a proud a day as he day my mam and my aunt got married. I got most of my political beliefs from m grandad (face miner and NUM representitive)
 
fastandbulbous said:
Couldn't give a fuck if it made Psygen a big player, in the pharma market. I have more than enough money to see me ok for the rest of my life. I'd jus like to think I did something that made the world a better place (an honorary Ph.D. from Sunderland uni, wouldn't go amiss!!). My desire to make the world a better place is one of the reasons my wife said she loved me. What more could I ask for?
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OK but what does any of this MXE stuff have anything to do with you having money? You're not making any sense.
 
Cuz he made it?

fastandbulbous as much as I agree stuff like creating and providing medicine should not be for-profit at the same time I consider how easy it would be to make substance legal, affordable and widespread if one is to spent a lot of money in that direction.. How initial money for that is made doesn’t matter if it isn’t by harming others. So for a greater cause it’s just fine if first money comes from same medicine that’s intended to be free (as freedom and as free of charge) some time in a future.
 
Oh I see. His posts make more sense now. Doesn't change what I said about patents going hand-in-glove with the for-profit system.
 
What is your point?

The issue at hand (at least as I understand it) is that while ketamine-assisted therapy may indeed be a legitimate solution for some people, K is currently being pushed as this wonder drug and sold at exorbitant prices (the actual therapy part - as in talking to a therapist - often gone out the window), with many venture capitalists profiting from this, namely by marketing those types of therapies aggressively on social media with very little pushback from regulators. As a result, there is anecdotal evidence of clients from such clinics -- who otherwise may have never thought of even trying the drug -- developing a taste for it and turning to the black market to support habits which adversely affect their lives.

As such I don't see how making dissociatives freely available would help with the current situation. Those drugs aren't a panacea, I think most people here can agree. Prohibition doesn't work, of course, and a clean, pharma-grade supply would be ideal. But I have severe doubts about the soundness of spreading the stuff far and wide. There's a reason ketamine is sometimes called "psychedelic heroin". I don't have a perfect model in mind, but I think some skepticism towards dissociative evangelism such as the above might be a healthy baseline - see stickied thread about health problems arising from chronic use! Sorry to be a naysayer. (I use dissos too and often wish I didn't!)
 
As much as I would think why the fuck you talk that about K like that, I know too well now to think like that. When I used K, in my country it was considered bad drug, drug for junkies, most devastating drug and such things by people into psychedelics and I thought that’s pure bs and propaganda and ignored town in my country with many young people destroyed with K. It was for years place where they had almost unlimited, almost free K and some ended up on insane amounts like 10g’s daily, doing it 24/7. Good friend of mine used it for months in K hole doses and thank god stopped and he’s fine. Thing is he has condition making even something “harmless” like K very harsh on his body and K could have killed him, he new that and pushed it for months anyway.

“Psychedelic heroin” is perfect name for K. And K is ultimate escapist drug, far superior than any opiod.

I really love it, I really love dissos but also don’t like how easily they get me into mindset – fuck it, this is what I want, I want it more and more often.. K is drug that makes people into psychedelics consider using I.V. and ending up so deep into it, that it’s hard to get out.

Surely dangerous stuff. Hell, people permanently destroy their bodies with it and continue, people start noticing problems and continue, people get perma-tolerance and continue, all kind of stuff far fetched even for H junkie without death wish so I can see where from that name comes from..
 
Pfafffed said:
Amid a sea of ketamine therapy boosterism, I came across this article sounding the alarm. It's quite good, and I learned some wild things in it. Link bypasses paywall.


I wish that we could do things responsibly in this country. Psychedelic therapy offers tremendous opportunities for both sick and healthy people. It also comes with risks, risks that communities like us know very well. Now that their potential has been recognized, I feel that rather than pull in our expertise, profiteers are running full speed ahead heedless of the harm they are going to do.

Even basic things like recognizing that ketamine is addictive and can cause permanent bladder damage get ignored. It turns out that if you offer someone a lifesaving therapy that lasts for a week or two and costs pennies, but charge US$400 a dose, people will find a way to cut out the middleman. And a percentage of those people get hurt. I'm in favor of people having access to drugs, but when doctors with no training give you ketamine and don't inform you of the risks, that's not just irresponsible, that's malpractice. We saw what happened when pharma reps told doctors that Valium and Xanax were safe and not addictive, and then again with oxycodone. Ketamine is neither, but you would have hoped they'd learned.

On the larger scale, I'm concerned by the overpromising. We love doing that with new drugs. We did it with Prozac, we did it with Xanax, hell we did it with Viagra. Measured expectations don't get funding and they don't sell product.

I'm delighted that people are finally getting help, but I wish we had better community-supported spaces and containers for these tools. A generation plus of suppression has really made it hard to create the community capacity to meet all the need.
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Bladder damage is a myth, if there was damage was certainly done by additives/fillers in street crap, 90% of people who use ketamine can't get their hands on vials.

If bladder damage were true, I would not have a bladder lol...

I spent a year using 3, 4 vials of 50ml ketamine weekly, 1g per 10ml so each vials had 5g of K.

Check my profile and there is a thread "Ketamine Changed My Life" and at the time it did, but looking back at all that I can see how I was completely delusional. Even though I have to admit that K helped me somehow in that period of my life.

But after I "extracted" everything I could from K, it stopped being that "heavenly magical elixir" and the effects starts being unpleasant, it was telling me it was time to stop and let go.
 
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