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Health Consequences of Ketamine Capitalism

Pfafffed

Moderator: PD
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Jun 30, 2015
Messages
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Amid a sea of ketamine therapy boosterism, I came across this article sounding the alarm. It's quite good, and I learned some wild things in it. Link bypasses paywall.


I wish that we could do things responsibly in this country. Psychedelic therapy offers tremendous opportunities for both sick and healthy people. It also comes with risks, risks that communities like us know very well. Now that their potential has been recognized, I feel that rather than pull in our expertise, profiteers are running full speed ahead heedless of the harm they are going to do.

Even basic things like recognizing that ketamine is addictive and can cause permanent bladder damage get ignored. It turns out that if you offer someone a lifesaving therapy that lasts for a week or two and costs pennies, but charge US$400 a dose, people will find a way to cut out the middleman. And a percentage of those people get hurt. I'm in favor of people having access to drugs, but when doctors with no training give you ketamine and don't inform you of the risks, that's not just irresponsible, that's malpractice. We saw what happened when pharma reps told doctors that Valium and Xanax were safe and not addictive, and then again with oxycodone. Ketamine is neither, but you would have hoped they'd learned.

On the larger scale, I'm concerned by the overpromising. We love doing that with new drugs. We did it with Prozac, we did it with Xanax, hell we did it with Viagra. Measured expectations don't get funding and they don't sell product.

I'm delighted that people are finally getting help, but I wish we had better community-supported spaces and containers for these tools. A generation plus of suppression has really made it hard to create the community capacity to meet all the need.
 
Its the system of profit in general that is the issue.
Most people dont understand the judicial issues around economics in general.

There are laws that corporations are forced to maximize profit or they can get sued by their owners.
That creates shady practices in all fields and is a feeding ground for corruption.
Its the core of all our problems in the world today.

Pharmaceutical companies have to keep people sick and addicted to make as much money as possible.
And weapon manufacturers have to sponsor war and terrorism to have a market for their products etc.

Politics, religions and ideologis are merely distractions to make us look away from the real cause of evil and greed.
 
On the larger scale, I'm concerned by the overpromising. We love doing that with new drugs. We did it with Prozac, we did it with Xanax, hell we did it with Viagra. Measured expectations don't get funding and they don't sell product.

I'm delighted that people are finally getting help, but I wish we had better community-supported spaces and containers for these tools. A generation plus of suppression has really made it hard to create the community capacity to meet all the need.
In some ways I am delighted to that people are getting exposed. There was a video about 10 years ago that I need to find and link about some people who were dying who did mushrooms and went from depressed and afraid to loving and curious. It was so touching to see the before and after interviews. I may have teared up.

Saying that of course greed, corporations and humans in general will screw this up. I think the pharm industry already owns the media. I mean I am astounded at these drugs they advertise with absolutely no shame of the possible side effects. Just get it out and get the cash.

The only way I can see this working is flat out legalizing and anyone interested find a loving relative or friend to guide. Not a corporation.

I am an odd duck this way. I know people can be healed with psychedelics. But I also know my own experience over 45 years. Yes I get refreshed. But it usually only lasts for a day or two Or until "I come down" lol I feel that way about ibogaine too but I can't speak with experience. But I have heard others who have been through it say it was temporary. Temporary is good though. Hell 5 minutes of relief is good for us. But I suspect ketamine is the same. Works but not long enough. I mean the reason us recreational users take psychedelics is to be refreshed and get out of our stale heads. and it works. But now the medical field and corporations will screw this up but we have to let it happen how it happens. Again full legalization and help from friends would be more clinical that some of these settings I see take place.
 
Well the state has to aggregate as change somehow.

One way is as core belief. If a trip influences your ethics, your metaphysics, your whatever philosophical structure which behaviour depends upon, then the substance will have a lasting change upon your behaviour. Even if the trip has only presented you with a behaviour pattern that you without explicit reason have since latched on to, you will have a lasting change to your behaviour, and any evaluative emotional state that comes with that.

Because emotional state ultimately depends upon behaviour or cognition. They are in a mutual feedback arrangement, but emotions are fickle, behaviour and cognition relatively crystallizing. Without changes in these latters, there's no actual, persistent state change in the specimen.
 
I'm very glad that ketamine got approved, but I don't think honestly that it's going to pan out any more or less effective than the most primitive, close to placebo SSRI anyone could think of, in the long term, for treating depression, anxiety or ADHD. I am kinda torn between saying that the blatantly overpromising hype is a necessary overcorrection on the road to many more currently illegal substances without any "recognised legitimate use" being recognised as having utility, and... well actually no, I think that's probably it. The eye-wateringly insane prices that FDA grade isomerically pure ketamine seems to cost the consumer is indeed very disturbing though, as is the way it is being given to some people, as if it's like, magic, basically, in a way that no drug really has been ever before in reality, although many drugs have been sold as if they were, is also disturbing. I'd say these things are just problems with capitalism though. And in some ways, quite specifically USA-flavor medico-capitalism, being a fairly unique phenomenon in the developed Western world which, pretty much by design, allows health and wellbeing itself - or rather, the promise of such, in many cases - to be ruthlessly exploited without consequence or repercussion, and is the ideal environment for the kind of unchecked, piratical Ketamine Capitalism that has, predictably, arisen.

That said, do I prefer to see a world where more psychoactive substances are more available through legitimate channels, even in the midst of such exploitative chaos, than a world where there is less blatant disregard for any reasonable expectation of ethical behaviour when it comes to such substances, but ketamine and many others are still condemned to the shadows and regarded with hostility and fear? All other things being equal (which in reality they are not, of course) I would take the first option, although I'm undecided right this second if that's truly the best one or not.
 
I'm very glad that ketamine got approved, but I don't think honestly that it's going to pan out any more or less effective than the most primitive, close to placebo SSRI anyone could think of, in the long term, for treating depression, anxiety or ADHD. I am kinda torn between saying that the blatantly overpromising hype is a necessary overcorrection on the road to many more currently illegal substances without any "recognised legitimate use" being recognised as having utility, and... well actually no, I think that's probably it. The eye-wateringly insane prices that FDA grade isomerically pure ketamine seems to cost the consumer is indeed very disturbing though, as is the way it is being given to some people, as if it's like, magic, basically, in a way that no drug really has been ever before in reality, although many drugs have been sold as if they were, is also disturbing. I'd say these things are just problems with capitalism though. And in some ways, quite specifically USA-flavor medico-capitalism, being a fairly unique phenomenon in the developed Western world which, pretty much by design, allows health and wellbeing itself - or rather, the promise of such, in many cases - to be ruthlessly exploited without consequence or repercussion, and is the ideal environment for the kind of unchecked, piratical Ketamine Capitalism that has, predictably, arisen.

That said, do I prefer to see a world where more psychoactive substances are more available through legitimate channels, even in the midst of such exploitative chaos, than a world where there is less blatant disregard for any reasonable expectation of ethical behaviour when it comes to such substances, but ketamine and many others are still condemned to the shadows and regarded with hostility and fear? All other things being equal (which in reality they are not, of course) I would take the first option, although I'm undecided right this second if that's truly the best one or not.
I think the true magic could be in polydrug treatments with specific therapy for the patient etc.
Basicly whatever works for the specific patient, could be hypnotherapy or sound healing etc.
 
I don't contribute here as much as I should, but I'm a longtime lurker. I have substantial personal experience with ketamine, having first used it in the late 90s by way of pre-ban Ketaset "Yellow Label liqs", and throughout most of the years since (with a few notable periods off). I was typically a secretive user, opting for solo k-holes vs public use at parties/raves or whatever. I definitely experienced a wide range of experiences, though the economics of my life ensured that I rarely had more than 3-4 grams onhand at any time, and could only purchase every so often. I largely managed to avoid the urinary complications that high dose users begin to experience, as I would typically limit my use to late at night, straight for a hole, with a xanax or ambien after I came out of it to go to sleep. I eventually stopped using it due to some pretty destructive adverse experiences with 3-ho-PCP, namely extended mania and emergent delusional symptoms that lasted for weeks after I ceased using it. All told, my relationship with ketamine is the longest and most in depth of all of my drug experiences. In retrospect, the mood elevation from ketamine was likely something I was unintentionally relying on to manage my own need to escape, and also seems to be a much shorter-lasting and limited intensity version of the effect that lead to mania from 3-ho-PCP use.

Due to my experiences with substance use and eventual opioid addiction/recovery, I eventually went back to school and became a psychotherapist in the early 2010s. I've worked with people who use drugs almost exclusively in the time since. I remember in the first few years of working in clinical settings, I started to hear people mention Ketamine as something that they were expressing interest in. I'd often react a bit cheeky when asked if I had heard of or knew anything about it. Everyone I have worked with is pretty aware of my *historical* substance use. I initially was a pretty big advocate for it, as I liked the drug personally, and wasn't blind to all of the research that was being released about it's benefits. I saw it is as one more step in the vindication of psychedelic spectrum drugs having positive impacts on the lives of users, something I had believed and expressed throughout most of my adult and professional life.

During the course of this, I also reconnected with traditional psychedelics, and began to move away from my focus on and use of ketamine. I was initially pretty stoked when psilocybin got slotted for clinical trials, and began to contemplate how I could someday integrate something like that (ideally mescaline) into my clinical practice. At the same time, cannabis legalization had taken firm root, and the *green rush* came to my state. Suddenly there was a whole bunch of cannabis related "wellness" advertising showing up around the city, and people who I would never have pegged as drug users would casually acknowledge their cannabis use, their interest in psilocybin retreats ("Have you seen that goop episode!?!"), and their increased curiosity about ketamine use. As I work in the public health side of health care, serving mostly homeless folks on medicaid or medicare, we rarely have the means to connect people to ketamine treatments. So most of this stuff remains the topic of conversations, rather than patient referrals.

I've really started to step back and question how this stuff is moving forward. The focus on profit alone is troubling, as well as the normalization and "part of a holistic wellness approach - namaste!" promotion that has gone on.... scares the shit out of me. I've even stepped back from seeing psychedelic assisted therapy as a future path to explore, and really think that I'd rather focus on psychedelic integration work, (you do your trip on your own time, we just talk about it before and process it after, figure out how to integrate it into your day-to-day life and apply it to whatever personal goals may be applicable). I think about the MDMA trials that got called out (and somewhat hushed up) for having an unlicensed "therapist" couple delivering an MDMA intervention that lead to the male "therapist" snuggling with a very distressed patient, as part of a grounding practice, but was really much closer to sexual assault.

I think about how fragile the therapeutic relationship can be when working with folks who come in with significant trauma. Earning trust is only part of the process, you have to maintain that trust over time. It also becomes much, much easier, for clinicians to shift into autopilot once the initial challenge of a case has subsided, or the excitement of novel treatments or interventions bleeds away. I think about this with ketamine as well, it's a hot topic right now, and as mentioned in the article (thanks for sharing btw), most of the discussion is focused on the potential for benefit. The dirty, yet open, secret from our collective Street PhDs is, however, that this is the same stuff that used to be nicknamed psychedelic heroin. I remember the transition from kids I knew using MDMA on the come-up, and ketamine on the come-down, and a few years later it was coke to come up and dope (or benzos) to come down.

I also think about a concept "entering the mindset of a patient" when it comes to drug use. When we recreationally take powerful drugs that are addictive and also fun as fuck, we are drug users, and often see ourselves as such. We think of the consequences of our use through a lens of that behavior being recreational in nature. When the drugs stop being fun, that is when we might start to see trouble brewing. I was at a family party some years ago, right after medical weed became a thing here. I have this kooky aunt who used to have an addiction to benzos and percs, but had been in recovery for 15+ years. I had heard she had gotten into the medical weed, and generally seemed good with that, (maybe a bit kookier, but no worse for wear). Her brother was talking with her about the process of starting with medical cannabis and he asked "what is it prescribed for" and her response was "well the doctors, they're really nice, they find something to diagnose it for - they really want to help you!". Obviously, that may be true for some subset of physicians, but my guess is that it's more about having an easy side hustle that generates a tidy 250$ in billing with absolutely no subsequent patient care, or case involvement. Medical cannabis operates in an entirely different space than health care provision. It's not prescribed, there's no follow-up to determine efficacy, no dose recommendation, or significant quantity limits. If an eighth a week isn't enough, try a quarter! Throw some tincture, gummies, and lozenges into the mix while you're at it! Imagine that's how we approached adderall?

Except, there is a relationship between adderall and medical weed. The *the mindset as a patient*. 'I am taking this because it's medicine, and medicine is good for me, it's treating my <problem>.' It feeds into a pathological mindset that makes us see ourselves as sick, broken, or disabled. If we have side effects of our medicine, we may respond to them differently than having side-effects from a recreational drug experience. We also think about cessation much differently when discussing treatment of <problem> vs recreational use.

With ketamine, all of this stuff comes to mind, and it scares me. It's the next miracle cure in a long line of them, but as we explore deeper into the realms of psychedelic spectrum drugs, the consequences could be pretty dark, and those consequences could profoundly change core parts of a person. The potential for coercion, manipulation, and even the insidious ways in which grandeur can creep into provider/patient power dynamics, all exists as risks that we can't measure. How many self anointed acid gurus will be birthed by VC backed psychedelic medicine.

Finally, when it comes to ketamine, I worry about a much more difficult to nail-down effect of use. Psychopathology categorizes symptoms as "positive" and "negative";
Positive symptoms – any change in behaviour or thoughts, such as hallucinations or delusions.

negative symptoms – where people appear to withdraw from the world around then, take no interest in everyday social interactions, and often appear emotionless and flat.

With ketamine, especially when used chronically, there is definitely a risk of negative symptoms creep that can happen in ways that are much harder to identify and notice. What part of your personality becomes consistently deadened by ketamine use? As the article notes, we don't have any reliable data on long-term chronic ketamine use. Even if we did, we may not always be looking for the kinds of things that dissociatives can take away from a human. It's like, when people start on SSRIs, their mood may improve, but their libido takes a significant hit. What's the impact, over time, that that effect has on an intimate partner relationship? If your lover suddenly starts to feel less depressed, but also doesn't really want/need to have sex, that's gotta be a tough thing to wrangle with. Further, with SSRIs, I sense that they deaden more than just unpleasant parts of the emotional experience of a human. I worry that ketamine may have it's own version of phenomena as part of it's profile. Hard to nail down changes that could also profoundly alter intimate relationships. We're already a lonely bunch, moreso now than ever before, I worry that the enthusiastic marketing of dissociation may result in some unintended consequences.
 
I don't contribute here as much as I should, but I'm a longtime lurker. I have substantial personal experience with ketamine, having first used it in the late 90s by way of pre-ban Ketaset "Yellow Label liqs", and throughout most of the years since (with a few notable periods off). I was typically a secretive user, opting for solo k-holes vs public use at parties/raves or whatever. I definitely experienced a wide range of experiences, though the economics of my life ensured that I rarely had more than 3-4 grams onhand at any time, and could only purchase every so often. I largely managed to avoid the urinary complications that high dose users begin to experience, as I would typically limit my use to late at night, straight for a hole, with a xanax or ambien after I came out of it to go to sleep. I eventually stopped using it due to some pretty destructive adverse experiences with 3-ho-PCP, namely extended mania and emergent delusional symptoms that lasted for weeks after I ceased using it. All told, my relationship with ketamine is the longest and most in depth of all of my drug experiences. In retrospect, the mood elevation from ketamine was likely something I was unintentionally relying on to manage my own need to escape, and also seems to be a much shorter-lasting and limited intensity version of the effect that lead to mania from 3-ho-PCP use.

Due to my experiences with substance use and eventual opioid addiction/recovery, I eventually went back to school and became a psychotherapist in the early 2010s. I've worked with people who use drugs almost exclusively in the time since. I remember in the first few years of working in clinical settings, I started to hear people mention Ketamine as something that they were expressing interest in. I'd often react a bit cheeky when asked if I had heard of or knew anything about it. Everyone I have worked with is pretty aware of my *historical* substance use. I initially was a pretty big advocate for it, as I liked the drug personally, and wasn't blind to all of the research that was being released about it's benefits. I saw it is as one more step in the vindication of psychedelic spectrum drugs having positive impacts on the lives of users, something I had believed and expressed throughout most of my adult and professional life.

During the course of this, I also reconnected with traditional psychedelics, and began to move away from my focus on and use of ketamine. I was initially pretty stoked when psilocybin got slotted for clinical trials, and began to contemplate how I could someday integrate something like that (ideally mescaline) into my clinical practice. At the same time, cannabis legalization had taken firm root, and the *green rush* came to my state. Suddenly there was a whole bunch of cannabis related "wellness" advertising showing up around the city, and people who I would never have pegged as drug users would casually acknowledge their cannabis use, their interest in psilocybin retreats ("Have you seen that goop episode!?!"), and their increased curiosity about ketamine use. As I work in the public health side of health care, serving mostly homeless folks on medicaid or medicare, we rarely have the means to connect people to ketamine treatments. So most of this stuff remains the topic of conversations, rather than patient referrals.

I've really started to step back and question how this stuff is moving forward. The focus on profit alone is troubling, as well as the normalization and "part of a holistic wellness approach - namaste!" promotion that has gone on.... scares the shit out of me. I've even stepped back from seeing psychedelic assisted therapy as a future path to explore, and really think that I'd rather focus on psychedelic integration work, (you do your trip on your own time, we just talk about it before and process it after, figure out how to integrate it into your day-to-day life and apply it to whatever personal goals may be applicable). I think about the MDMA trials that got called out (and somewhat hushed up) for having an unlicensed "therapist" couple delivering an MDMA intervention that lead to the male "therapist" snuggling with a very distressed patient, as part of a grounding practice, but was really much closer to sexual assault.

I think about how fragile the therapeutic relationship can be when working with folks who come in with significant trauma. Earning trust is only part of the process, you have to maintain that trust over time. It also becomes much, much easier, for clinicians to shift into autopilot once the initial challenge of a case has subsided, or the excitement of novel treatments or interventions bleeds away. I think about this with ketamine as well, it's a hot topic right now, and as mentioned in the article (thanks for sharing btw), most of the discussion is focused on the potential for benefit. The dirty, yet open, secret from our collective Street PhDs is, however, that this is the same stuff that used to be nicknamed psychedelic heroin. I remember the transition from kids I knew using MDMA on the come-up, and ketamine on the come-down, and a few years later it was coke to come up and dope (or benzos) to come down.

I also think about a concept "entering the mindset of a patient" when it comes to drug use. When we recreationally take powerful drugs that are addictive and also fun as fuck, we are drug users, and often see ourselves as such. We think of the consequences of our use through a lens of that behavior being recreational in nature. When the drugs stop being fun, that is when we might start to see trouble brewing. I was at a family party some years ago, right after medical weed became a thing here. I have this kooky aunt who used to have an addiction to benzos and percs, but had been in recovery for 15+ years. I had heard she had gotten into the medical weed, and generally seemed good with that, (maybe a bit kookier, but no worse for wear). Her brother was talking with her about the process of starting with medical cannabis and he asked "what is it prescribed for" and her response was "well the doctors, they're really nice, they find something to diagnose it for - they really want to help you!". Obviously, that may be true for some subset of physicians, but my guess is that it's more about having an easy side hustle that generates a tidy 250$ in billing with absolutely no subsequent patient care, or case involvement. Medical cannabis operates in an entirely different space than health care provision. It's not prescribed, there's no follow-up to determine efficacy, no dose recommendation, or significant quantity limits. If an eighth a week isn't enough, try a quarter! Throw some tincture, gummies, and lozenges into the mix while you're at it! Imagine that's how we approached adderall?

Except, there is a relationship between adderall and medical weed. The *the mindset as a patient*. 'I am taking this because it's medicine, and medicine is good for me, it's treating my <problem>.' It feeds into a pathological mindset that makes us see ourselves as sick, broken, or disabled. If we have side effects of our medicine, we may respond to them differently than having side-effects from a recreational drug experience. We also think about cessation much differently when discussing treatment of <problem> vs recreational use.

With ketamine, all of this stuff comes to mind, and it scares me. It's the next miracle cure in a long line of them, but as we explore deeper into the realms of psychedelic spectrum drugs, the consequences could be pretty dark, and those consequences could profoundly change core parts of a person. The potential for coercion, manipulation, and even the insidious ways in which grandeur can creep into provider/patient power dynamics, all exists as risks that we can't measure. How many self anointed acid gurus will be birthed by VC backed psychedelic medicine.

Finally, when it comes to ketamine, I worry about a much more difficult to nail-down effect of use. Psychopathology categorizes symptoms as "positive" and "negative";
Positive symptoms – any change in behaviour or thoughts, such as hallucinations or delusions.

negative symptoms – where people appear to withdraw from the world around then, take no interest in everyday social interactions, and often appear emotionless and flat.

With ketamine, especially when used chronically, there is definitely a risk of negative symptoms creep that can happen in ways that are much harder to identify and notice. What part of your personality becomes consistently deadened by ketamine use? As the article notes, we don't have any reliable data on long-term chronic ketamine use. Even if we did, we may not always be looking for the kinds of things that dissociatives can take away from a human. It's like, when people start on SSRIs, their mood may improve, but their libido takes a significant hit. What's the impact, over time, that that effect has on an intimate partner relationship? If your lover suddenly starts to feel less depressed, but also doesn't really want/need to have sex, that's gotta be a tough thing to wrangle with. Further, with SSRIs, I sense that they deaden more than just unpleasant parts of the emotional experience of a human. I worry that ketamine may have it's own version of phenomena as part of it's profile. Hard to nail down changes that could also profoundly alter intimate relationships. We're already a lonely bunch, moreso now than ever before, I worry that the enthusiastic marketing of dissociation may result in some unintended consequences.
Totally agree with your point.
Basicly there is no free lunch in most cases when dealing with medications or alot of other treatments.
In most cases you may solve or lessen a problem while creating new issues that need to be taken into consideration.
 
With ketamine, especially when used chronically, there is definitely a risk of negative symptoms creep that can happen in ways that are much harder to identify and notice
So true I think. Enjoyed reading your post a lot, thanks for sharing.
 
There is also the issue of suggestibility among people addicticed to ketamine.

What i mean is that imo your ability to be logical and retain a solid concept of reality gets temporarily lowered by ketamine.
This could be a trigger for its healing properties, but could also be used or randomly effected by whatever input you get.

Like the CIA Mkultra trials with lsd, but instead of dosing prisoners and people going to prostitutes(look into it, its documented)
This time their trying their luck with Ketamine and using Big Pharma and clinics for distribution.
Also it will probably open up the black markets in the areas where these clinics get popular.


Im not anti the idea though, but im expecting big Pharma and the regular greed among people to make this into a burning dumpster kind of situation.
 
Given how insanely expensive is medicine in USA (good example is my friend coming months earlier from USA because what’s free treatment/meds here would cost him what he earns in a year or two if he got treatment in USA, and we are talking about something life-threatening requiring only rather cheap chemicals as treatment), 400USD doesn’t even seem that much especially considering how effective it’s supposed to be.

I don’t think it’ll turn out that K is just as ineffective as SSRI-s and bunch of other stuff at first advertised as a “miracle drug” but that some people will end up abusing it is not a question but a fact as people end up abusing drugs that compared to K have zero recreational and abuse potential.
 
Given how insanely expensive is medicine in USA (good example is my friend coming months earlier from USA because what’s free treatment/meds here would cost him what he earns in a year or two if he got treatment in USA, and we are talking about something life-threatening requiring only rather cheap chemicals as treatment), 400USD doesn’t even seem that much especially considering how effective it’s supposed to be.

I don’t think it’ll turn out that K is just as ineffective as SSRI-s and bunch of other stuff at first advertised as a “miracle drug” but that some people will end up abusing it is not a question but a fact as people end up abusing drugs that compared to K have zero recreational and abuse potential.
I totally agree. K has some magic to it, but it's dark magic. You don't want to bank on that kind of thing and right now I feel like we are seeing that happen quite a bit.

Well put.
 
In all honesty (and backed up by a pathologist friend), doctors know fuck all about the drugs they dish out (2 terms of pharmacology out of a 5 year degree). I've put them straight more than once (most do not like being corrected by a scruffy, long haired druggie, but fuck them, they're ignorant) and I doubt I'll ever stop...
 
I don't contribute here as much as I should, but I'm a longtime lurker. I have substantial personal experience with ketamine, having first used it in the late 90s by way of pre-ban Ketaset "Yellow Label liqs", and throughout most of the years since (with a few notable periods off). I was typically a secretive user, opting for solo k-holes vs public use at parties/raves or whatever. I definitely experienced a wide range of experiences, though the economics of my life ensured that I rarely had more than 3-4 grams onhand at any time, and could only purchase every so often. I largely managed to avoid the urinary complications that high dose users begin to experience, as I would typically limit my use to late at night, straight for a hole, with a xanax or ambien after I came out of it to go to sleep. I eventually stopped using it due to some pretty destructive adverse experiences with 3-ho-PCP, namely extended mania and emergent delusional symptoms that lasted for weeks after I ceased using it. All told, my relationship with ketamine is the longest and most in depth of all of my drug experiences. In retrospect, the mood elevation from ketamine was likely something I was unintentionally relying on to manage my own need to escape, and also seems to be a much shorter-lasting and limited intensity version of the effect that lead to mania from 3-ho-PCP use.

Due to my experiences with substance use and eventual opioid addiction/recovery, I eventually went back to school and became a psychotherapist in the early 2010s. I've worked with people who use drugs almost exclusively in the time since. I remember in the first few years of working in clinical settings, I started to hear people mention Ketamine as something that they were expressing interest in. I'd often react a bit cheeky when asked if I had heard of or knew anything about it. Everyone I have worked with is pretty aware of my *historical* substance use. I initially was a pretty big advocate for it, as I liked the drug personally, and wasn't blind to all of the research that was being released about it's benefits. I saw it is as one more step in the vindication of psychedelic spectrum drugs having positive impacts on the lives of users, something I had believed and expressed throughout most of my adult and professional life.

During the course of this, I also reconnected with traditional psychedelics, and began to move away from my focus on and use of ketamine. I was initially pretty stoked when psilocybin got slotted for clinical trials, and began to contemplate how I could someday integrate something like that (ideally mescaline) into my clinical practice. At the same time, cannabis legalization had taken firm root, and the *green rush* came to my state. Suddenly there was a whole bunch of cannabis related "wellness" advertising showing up around the city, and people who I would never have pegged as drug users would casually acknowledge their cannabis use, their interest in psilocybin retreats ("Have you seen that goop episode!?!"), and their increased curiosity about ketamine use. As I work in the public health side of health care, serving mostly homeless folks on medicaid or medicare, we rarely have the means to connect people to ketamine treatments. So most of this stuff remains the topic of conversations, rather than patient referrals.

I've really started to step back and question how this stuff is moving forward. The focus on profit alone is troubling, as well as the normalization and "part of a holistic wellness approach - namaste!" promotion that has gone on.... scares the shit out of me. I've even stepped back from seeing psychedelic assisted therapy as a future path to explore, and really think that I'd rather focus on psychedelic integration work, (you do your trip on your own time, we just talk about it before and process it after, figure out how to integrate it into your day-to-day life and apply it to whatever personal goals may be applicable). I think about the MDMA trials that got called out (and somewhat hushed up) for having an unlicensed "therapist" couple delivering an MDMA intervention that lead to the male "therapist" snuggling with a very distressed patient, as part of a grounding practice, but was really much closer to sexual assault.

I think about how fragile the therapeutic relationship can be when working with folks who come in with significant trauma. Earning trust is only part of the process, you have to maintain that trust over time. It also becomes much, much easier, for clinicians to shift into autopilot once the initial challenge of a case has subsided, or the excitement of novel treatments or interventions bleeds away. I think about this with ketamine as well, it's a hot topic right now, and as mentioned in the article (thanks for sharing btw), most of the discussion is focused on the potential for benefit. The dirty, yet open, secret from our collective Street PhDs is, however, that this is the same stuff that used to be nicknamed psychedelic heroin. I remember the transition from kids I knew using MDMA on the come-up, and ketamine on the come-down, and a few years later it was coke to come up and dope (or benzos) to come down.

I also think about a concept "entering the mindset of a patient" when it comes to drug use. When we recreationally take powerful drugs that are addictive and also fun as fuck, we are drug users, and often see ourselves as such. We think of the consequences of our use through a lens of that behavior being recreational in nature. When the drugs stop being fun, that is when we might start to see trouble brewing. I was at a family party some years ago, right after medical weed became a thing here. I have this kooky aunt who used to have an addiction to benzos and percs, but had been in recovery for 15+ years. I had heard she had gotten into the medical weed, and generally seemed good with that, (maybe a bit kookier, but no worse for wear). Her brother was talking with her about the process of starting with medical cannabis and he asked "what is it prescribed for" and her response was "well the doctors, they're really nice, they find something to diagnose it for - they really want to help you!". Obviously, that may be true for some subset of physicians, but my guess is that it's more about having an easy side hustle that generates a tidy 250$ in billing with absolutely no subsequent patient care, or case involvement. Medical cannabis operates in an entirely different space than health care provision. It's not prescribed, there's no follow-up to determine efficacy, no dose recommendation, or significant quantity limits. If an eighth a week isn't enough, try a quarter! Throw some tincture, gummies, and lozenges into the mix while you're at it! Imagine that's how we approached adderall?

Except, there is a relationship between adderall and medical weed. The *the mindset as a patient*. 'I am taking this because it's medicine, and medicine is good for me, it's treating my <problem>.' It feeds into a pathological mindset that makes us see ourselves as sick, broken, or disabled. If we have side effects of our medicine, we may respond to them differently than having side-effects from a recreational drug experience. We also think about cessation much differently when discussing treatment of <problem> vs recreational use.

With ketamine, all of this stuff comes to mind, and it scares me. It's the next miracle cure in a long line of them, but as we explore deeper into the realms of psychedelic spectrum drugs, the consequences could be pretty dark, and those consequences could profoundly change core parts of a person. The potential for coercion, manipulation, and even the insidious ways in which grandeur can creep into provider/patient power dynamics, all exists as risks that we can't measure. How many self anointed acid gurus will be birthed by VC backed psychedelic medicine.

Finally, when it comes to ketamine, I worry about a much more difficult to nail-down effect of use. Psychopathology categorizes symptoms as "positive" and "negative";
Positive symptoms – any change in behaviour or thoughts, such as hallucinations or delusions.

negative symptoms – where people appear to withdraw from the world around then, take no interest in everyday social interactions, and often appear emotionless and flat.

With ketamine, especially when used chronically, there is definitely a risk of negative symptoms creep that can happen in ways that are much harder to identify and notice. What part of your personality becomes consistently deadened by ketamine use? As the article notes, we don't have any reliable data on long-term chronic ketamine use. Even if we did, we may not always be looking for the kinds of things that dissociatives can take away from a human. It's like, when people start on SSRIs, their mood may improve, but their libido takes a significant hit. What's the impact, over time, that that effect has on an intimate partner relationship? If your lover suddenly starts to feel less depressed, but also doesn't really want/need to have sex, that's gotta be a tough thing to wrangle with. Further, with SSRIs, I sense that they deaden more than just unpleasant parts of the emotional experience of a human. I worry that ketamine may have it's own version of phenomena as part of it's profile. Hard to nail down changes that could also profoundly alter intimate relationships. We're already a lonely bunch, moreso now than ever before, I worry that the enthusiastic marketing of dissociation may result in some unintended consequences.
And that's medicine for profit leads to. While far from perfect, the NHS (as was, not under these fuckwit torie money grabbing twats), it attempts to put patients before profit. If mxe turned out the best thing since sliced bread, I never wanted a penny from it (an honourary Ph.D.from Sunderland would be nice!), but a penny, nah.
 
@fastandbulbous - a brush with celebrity. Much obliged.

I agree with you, the system that many of these drugs are being developed and deployed into is pretty abhorrent. I was doing some research today about the shortage of adderall currently impacting the U.S., a combination of venture capital backed telemed startups exploiting pandemic-laxed prescribing requirements, the increasingly dystopian state of overmedicated drones of capital, overmedicated children, and drug policies that passively inflict psychic (and actively inflict physical) violence on the end users, and I came across some mentions of a new drug that people were mentioning switching to in place of adderall: azstarys. Apparently a combination of dexmethylphen, and a prodrug of dexmethylphen, recently released and relatively available in comparison to other psychostimulants, this drug was being discussed both in ADHD/Stimulant forums, but also in a subreddit specifically devoted to the stock trading of the pharmaceutical group that released it. Speculative day trading on the back of supply-side shortages, artificially swelling a market hungry for the next big thing (since BTC is so passe).

The gleeful posts about increased valuation due to the shortage of adderall causing an influx of stimulant deprived patients just looking for some respite... it just makes me so angry. I spend my days trying to help people pick up the pieces of their lives after their substance use has taken everything from them. Where does that process start? Here's one place....and now we can day-trade on it to boot. Not too distant from shorting the banks in 08 and getting rich on the collapse of people's mortgages.
 
Are they charging the money for the "therapy" or for the drug itself? With K being out of patent why wouldn't they be able to buy K from India for pennies? Maybe cos of the legal status?
 
I totally agree. K has some magic to it, but it's dark magic. You don't want to bank on that kind of thing and right now I feel like we are seeing that happen quite a bit.

Well put.

I agree. There’s alot of dark magic at play right now, this is just one tentacle of the beast. And don’t get me wrong, I like a little K now and then. But the prevalence and use these days by most is too much. They’re flooding the spiritual spaces with this and cocaine hoping to throw it all off.

Your avatar is one medicine people should reach for instead.

-GC
 
Your avatar is one medicine people should reach for instead.
I agree - best medicine I've found. I say this without reservation that mescaline saved me during a really dark time, and I will always feel a great kinship to it. Ironically, it wasn't one that I came to explore until I was older, despite having grown it since I was a kid.

Are they charging the money for the "therapy" or for the drug itself? With K being out of patent why wouldn't they be able to buy K from India for pennies? Maybe cos of the legal status?
Ketamine is super cheap and has been generic for a long time. The practices that use it charge 500-1000$ per infusion, and I can't imagine they're paying even a tiny fraction of that for the dose. The cost is to pay for clinician time. Also, it's not generally covered by insurance.

Esktamine/Spravato, which is being provided through prescriptions (as well as a number of other random formulations) - is a brand name formulation. This is pushed because it was able to be patented and branded, whereas ketamine has been generic forever. It's all decisions made to increase profitability. The wackest part of it is that regular ketamine has shown to be more effective than s-ketamine (sprivato) intreating depression, yet.... s-ketamine is much more profitable on an outpatient/prescription basis. Manufacturers push prescribers in that direction (just like Purdu did with Valium and Oxycontin), and as @fastandbulbous noted very accurately:
In all honesty (and backed up by a pathologist friend), doctors know fuck all about the drugs they dish out (2 terms of pharmacology out of a 5 year degree). I've put them straight more than once (most do not like being corrected by a scruffy, long haired druggie, but fuck them, they're ignorant) and I doubt I'll ever stop...
so many just go that way.

The infusions centers aren't getting paid for the drug itself as it's off-label, so they just use cheap and widely available racemic ket, and charge you cash for the k-hole.

Or you can just source it yourself for 1/10th the cost, and find a therapist who's willing to do integration work with you.

It's all such a racket, and the narcobureaucracy needs to feed.
 
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