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combining 5ht2a agonists

nepalnt21

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Nov 3, 2016
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so whats the scoop on combining 2 or more classic psychedelics? whats the biggest psychedelic sandwich you guys have done? especially interested in hearing about such combos that do not include cannabis, dissociatives, empathogens, etc... just traditional psychedelics.
 
Well I have discussed this IRL and online and heard varying opinions and experiences. But there are also varying opinions on "more is better" vs "less is better" to begin with, and that applies to combo's but also can to dosage...

also some of those opinions are shaped especially by experience though that may be unfair since plenty of people base their (sometimes strong) opinions on such matters on just one maybe two experiences which is very statistically insignificant or in other words it could have way too easily have been bad luck or due to unpredictable, chaotic and unconsidered factors.

In any case, my such opinion is that combining drugs - even ones with rich effects like psychedelics - if they are in certain ways too similar can be redundant (it can make a trip feel more generic too), also if they are on a similar "power level" you risk confusion from the effects not synergizing (which yeah can just be bad luck) and both trying to play the lead, at least I have had some experiences that felt like that. If you are not unlucky, sure they can blend into an experience that can seem to have novelty although it will always be hard to say how much. And even if there is just a little synergy in play I don't know that you would not be able to get similar effects by taking about double the dose of one classic psychedelic you tend to be comfortable with!

I find a better strategy in general to be to pick your main psychedelic and adding-on minor other trippy psychedelics, a great example is adding 2C-B or 2C-C, with this I never had the issues I described earlier (I did not have those issues I described earlier every time I tried the combo involved for the record)... but often it has enriched a trip just like taking DMT on 2C-B or taking 2C-B with acid has for me numerous times.

A caveat is that 2C-B is a very well tolerated psychedelic. Which brings me to my final point: combining drugs makes for a considerably more unpredictable experience which is a major reason behind the other points I discussed so far (less so when the drugs are very well tolerated anyway, unthreatening even). I won't really recommend against trying combining classic psychedelics, whether that is a fine idea depends more on how you are on the cost:benefit ratio. It could be great but it could also be counterproductive. So a tip is to try less 'balanced' combos and also to be aware of why you are choosing a particular 'add-on' and what you hope or expect.

I do recommend against a mentality that admires 'big psychedelic sandwiches' because I have pretty low confidence that the reasons are sound. And experiences have just taught me that on the long term seeking things like that for anything but good reasons feel surprisingly empty. High-dosing can be very rewarding and comboing can be very special but it's not a contest. We don't dicksize here so I will disregard the sandwich question. Maybe I was once proud of my more extensive combos but not anymore for quite a while, not at all. I think I have more respect for consistently or reliably being able to guide oneself and/or others.

But yea I reiterate: if your previous experiences make you suspect that a certain combo might be great WITHOUT the reason being about general intensity or hope for synergy or the drugs being great on their own, but instead about particular quality, if it is a safe combo, that can be an awesome plan!
On that note, I can probably get on board with adding acid or shrooms to mescaline to make it more psychedelic because mescaline seems to be more like a visionary empathogen of sorts and has a very different power curve (synth also being different from cactus product), so in that sense it is not all that redundant and also not as potentially overbalanced. Shrooms and acid lie closer together and I don't think extensive comboing with them is really warranted. I didn't really appreciate it especially.

hope you have sweet journeys :)
 
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awesome answer! i only brought up the sandwich thing because i love reading stories of extremes, but i totally agree on the dick-sizing thing.

i've experimented with a few different combinations of certain drugs with psychedelics, but never one psychedelic with another (speaking strictly on the classical psychs), so this is a question coming out of curiosity.

thanks for the well thought out response!
 
I found it disappointing that the terms primary process thinking and secondary process thinking are used to describe the wide range of stoned/dream state phenomena on one hand, and the wide range of ordinary mental state phenomena on the other.
primary and secondary adjectives are not meaningful, and they get in the way of real discovery even though they subtend from freudian psychology.
 
Define classic psychedelic!

I've had LSD mixed with mushrooms and morning glory, morning glory n mushrooms, MDMA and LSD....DMT mixed with...a lot of things.

Define classic psychedelic and I'll add more.
 
Ah yeah, wild stories are good :) Was just confused cause you also ask about advice ;)

Good point MGS!

It seems most meaningful here IMO to define it as 'all-round full package psychedelic, but particularly one of the archaic ones'. That is why it is hard to know whether to include mescaline, it is so empathogenic and IME requires either super high dosages or secondary alkaloids most of all MAOIs like those in T. Bridgesii to be super psychedelic.

I don't really see the point in only looking at history of use and counting major drugs including MDMA, the latter is just not a traditional psychedelic because the 5-HT2A agonism is not the primary mode of action or at least not the only significant one (if we ignore 1A and 2C for now).
Anyway I already explained my opinion on that and how it really depends a lot on whether different psychedelics have activity so unique that it couldn't really be redundant even if it's not ever a guaranteed success either. A DMT flash is a real cherry on top of another trip and can overpower other effects though also still clearly involve themes provided by the other psychedelic. A trip can be a great platform to blast off from with DMT rather than from sobriety.
Beyond that many combinations can have unique interactions so it is hard to generalize, but as I now understand nepalnt is always in for anecdotes anyway.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/611943-The-Big-amp-Dandy-Combo-Thread-Take-2

If you check the Psychedelic Index linked at top of PD pages, there is a whole category of combination threads. Also, various Big & Dandy threads like the one for LSD have subthreads linked in their OP to particular combo subthreads such as LSD + 2C-B.
 
of course, a lot of those guys are dirty (ie ibogaine hits some nmdar, iirc), but im referring specifically to those compounds that primarily target the 5ht2a receptor as a main contributor to the moa.
 
MAOIs in T. Bridgesii? Oh cool i did not know that...but having had pure mescaline (and finding it wonderful if mild even up to 700mg (granted I had a horrendous tolerance that year from smoking DMT every 2 hours all summer)...I feel the cactus must add more...and if MAOIs are in that strain...hey got a source? I know google....but if you get me a source I can focus on my song. :)

For me, the 'classics" would be LSD, morning glory, peyote, mushrooms, or psiloc(yb)in, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenine, ibogaine, and harmine. Basically what nature gives, and LSD...maybe DOM too (though I'll always substitute DOC)....and MDMA and MDA. Receptor affinity is less important than place in history and ability to facilitate entheogenic experiences. LSD is actually quite dirty too as far as what receptors it hits.

Heh, alright...one fine day I'll try DOM/LSD......because DOC/LSZ (or was it al-LAD...cant remember as it was a gift) was quite spectacular.

PS, I think you can include PCP as a classic....substitute with 3-MeO-PCP the next day after ibogaine, and man I can't wait till I'm moved to write about that. Met an ancestor (potato girl) and can never forget the experience of believing my head was (abstract description...not specific) a fishbowl and all reality existed there (which I suppose is true) and having no idea I was on ibogaine or 3-MeO-PCP. Hindsight, that was dangerous of me to do as my sitter had left, but talk about "classic psychedelic experience."

Ahh ibogaine, I hear ya calling...can you hear me?
 
https://trichoseriousethnobotany.blogspot.nl/2016/06/flavonoids-over-looked-ingredients-in.html

Bridgesii seems interesting, just much more reliable for tripping apparently. I don't grow my plants for use though it could be a bonus some day... I do wanna multiply my Bridges.

I'm with ya on the history etc, but it just seems like an arbitrary reason in this context of combo'ing unless maybe there was more mention of shamanism / ritual use etc... but it is up to the TS to make that call :)

It was explicitly said that no empathogens or dissociatives were meant (sorry, iboga can't come to the phone right now but please leave a message) which both led me to the conclusion that we are talking drugs with purely psychedelic action especially of a typical kind..:? Still hard to clearly define and maybe we shouldn't stress TOO much over what counts and doesn't count... After obvious ones like mushrooms or LSD, IMO 2C-E should be a good example because it has potent psychedelia, is not limited to say one of the senses, has broad potential... Things like bufotenine and harmine on the other hand seem useless for mostly any generalization on this part as far as comboing is concerned.

Which psychedelics would count as 'all-round' that is a gradient I guess, and a lot of them feel to me like they are say 70% all-round, not really all that many truly cover virtually all the bases. I guess there are a lot of obscure ones that have some very partial activity but those tend to be like I said, obscure, and not that well studied by trippers. Because why would a psychedelic gain popularity if it seems to be vague and misses a lot of aspects, why indeed unless it has some very distinct niche value such as DiPT?
I consider drugs like 4-HO-MiPT or 4-HO-MET to be among those 70%ers as well as various 2C's and in my experience those are more suitable for combo's than a 100%-er which in my experience feels nicer to give your undivided attention, or with enhancement of drugs in other categories. If you are very curious about comboing rich psychedelics, I guess just dose counterintuitively low and it can be good... synergy can just be very underestimated.

Sorry OP if the topic is a bit derailed from talking about particular combo's or reports or experiences and rather what is meant and how you define stuff.. :\ that could be fixed if you tell us what aspect of your question and this discussion you wanna focus on, we could help steer in some direction ;P
 
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I'll throw my two cents in regarding the most well known "classical" psychedelics (although as stated by Solipsis and others it's hard to define and depends largely who you talk to).

Srooms, Cacti, Ayahuasca/DMT, and LSD(maybe LSA but I feel it's less common in the popular consciousness these days idk) are the ones that I think of when I hear the term 'classical psychedelics' as it relates to my perception of the general consciousness about these things, but this is very subjective.

'Classical' psychedelic combos for me: LSD and DMT, Mescaline(T. Bridgisii mostly but some S. Pedro and some various forms of extracts) and DMT, LSD and Shrooms, LSD/LSA and Mescaline, none of which are really sandwiches per say but I find with the all encompassing ones like good Bridgesii or a solid dose of L or shrooms can be enough of an experience on its own and adding other strong things into the mix can be confusing or distracting or just unwanted. Also there is something to say regarding taking plant based entheogens in their whole form or reduced to a tea and the fact that you are actually taking a combination of alkaloids which have been synthesized by the earth into the particular plant. So by eating cactus you really are essentially taking a fat 'psychedelic (p)sandwich' albeit one which has been designed by the ultimate biochemist, Nature.

Now to some of what I consider 'classical' psychedelics although it includes some well known and somewhat studied novel compounds, mostly coming from pihkal and tihkal
-Broadened 'classical' psychedelic combos: 2C-E and 2C-T-2(caution with this one, although I and my friends had no ill effects), 2C-E and LSD, 2C-E 2C-T-2 and LSD, also DMT with all previous combos and I almost forgot 4-HO-MET and 5Meo-MiPT(4+8 spaced out which was surprisingly lackluster compared to just 8mg of meow mipt all at once). All of these particular combos produced wonderful and unique experiences with a very special synergy between different things. As long as the durations or peaks line up fairly well it usually is a good combo, that is of course once it's been confirmed that there are no contraindications between the things you are taking (google helps). As stated previously nature is the best biochemist and we have studied the molecules that have been given to us and then we have altered them through our progress in chemistry, which is where guys like Shulgin and Nichols (and many many more) have done great work exploring novel substances. After combining multiple phenethylamines as well as combining tryptamines, I had the thought that maybe these novel 'research chemicals' may actually exist in very small amounts in plants. We know that T. Bridgisii is chalk full of alkaloids and have been able to isolate and study the main ones (mescaline particularly, giving us the 2cxs and maybe the Doxs I believe). Mushrooms also have been shown to have different compounds from psilocybin to baestyricin(sp?) and who knows what else. This assertion is not yet based in any truly scientific findings but merely an idea that developed over several years and experiments. I found when combining 2cs they seemed to come closer to a full cactus experience, but maybe with less delirium/intoxication(my best Bridgisii experience had me dissolved into everything in a state of blissful Catatonia for many hours,just engulfed by deep red and yellow expansive fractal visuals, which was then realized to be a manifestation of my past and future). Now when you throw the L in the mix things start getting interesting as the L has its own very unique character and the milder colors of the 2cs get saturated by the LSD rainbow and this produced a ++++ for me, one of a special few experiences including the Bridgisii exp above. The 2ce+2ct2+lsd had me become a star of fantastic light and brilliance and then slowly lost myself into everything as I focused on these massive dancing entities conveying information through their insane psychedelic dance.

Now let's get to the weirder stuff and add in some other goodies (NOTE SOME OF THESE COMBOS ARE DANGEROUS AND COULD RESULT IN BODILY HARM, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, BLACKOUTS, BAD VIBES, and possibly DEATH! All harm reduction techniques should be adhered to as much as possible to reduce these risks because no one wants to actually die on any drug, so take these with a grain of salt and know that they have almost strictly produced less than 'pleasurable' effects)
You can throw nitrous in with all of my afore mentioned combos as I have had my share of n2o on almost every psychedelic I have done (although the nature of nitrous prevents most of the recollection of said experiences and is more catagorized in my mind as one big chaotic blur of a memory), also varying forms of thc of course which can drastically change a trip.
In fact one of the most terrifyingly intense experiences, which I don't plan on repeating, was with weed, Bridgisii, vaporized DMT, and two n2o balloons. It did not help that as soon as I hit the nitrous some sirens started going off down the street but they were so loud it felt like it was everywhere and in my head and I was blasted into hyperspace with an even more anxious vibe than normal because of the sirens persisting for the majority of the experience, although they quickly became symbols for other concepts and warped and pitched weird in combination with the auditory hallucinations often experienced on DMT. I attempted a lighter version of that with just nitrous and DMT, since they both have short durations but it didn't prove to be that fun because my head felt like a balloon and it expanded and contracted as I breathed in and out, I also felt like I was entirely blue from head to toe and that surely I was suffocating from the nitrous and I was gonna die like this. Thankfully I did not since the body tends to take care of itself especially when in hyperspace(I never think about breathing or remember to breathe but somehow it happens) and it was the ego death coupled with the 'possibility' of suffocation. Also DCK and 4HO-MET was the most chilled out and visually stimulating combo I have taken in a while. It produced nice visuals and profound color enhancement and visual acuity. It felt at times as if I could see everything clearer than ever, which was cycled back and forth with everything warping and turning with the fractals.

The final thing I'll throw in here since it's getting long is my one and only DXM/DPH and Nitrous combo, which was reckless, impulsive and dumb. I won't go into details because I can't, considering I don't remember most of the experience. However I did have a sober (mostly sober, he just smoked weed) trip sitter who is very well versed in this arena (we have explored a lot of these substances together), and had I not had a sitter, I am sure I would have been in jail or the hospital or even died. It was very delirious and the dxm/dph presented realistic hallucinations unlike anything I have experienced. Almost like a dream, but a dream where you have no mental capacity or control, so basically the opposite of a lucid dream. The nitrous didn't help as I compulsively did them back to back from a proper canister until I ran out and at some point I passed out on my friends couch only to awake in a confused panic with strong amnesia peppered by little flashes of what had happened. Not something I suggest anyone go for and it is one of the few true regrets I have from taking drugs, although it did teach a valuable lesson and was not particularly psychologically scarring because I was way too fucked up to remember anything and mostly felt embarrassed that I behaved like an ass in front of anyone, although it's not so bad since it was in a controlled environment and only around my best friend so we had a good laugh about it once I recovered fully.

So it is of utmost importance to act with care and knowledge when mixing things. Make SURE to the best of your ability that taking two things isn't gonna kill you, and if you are suspicious at all DO NOT TAKE THE RISK! There have even been deaths from some psychedelics based on their pharmacological action alone (nbomes, aMT, etc) without combinations so it's very hard to say what's safe. If one finds two or maybe three things that have good safety profiles and history of use and decides to mix them, one should probably take significantly less of each than you would expect. Like for 2ce on its own I've gone as low as 5mg and as high as 40mg(not very fun) but tended to stick with the 10-20 range. When adding the 2ct2 it would typically never go above 20 cumulative and more typically would be like 5+5, 6+6, 8+8, as well as other ratios(8 2ce and 4 2ct2 was a favorite ratio of mine). Synergy is unpredictable especially when mixing different classes of chemicals so always dose lower than expected, much like what Solipsis said.

As a general rule of thumb for me I try to mix a solid classical psychedelic that I know is not likely to have adverse health reactions, and add little bits of other items which I know I tolerate well to spice and flavor the experience to whatever I'm going for but try to avoid redundant effects (mescaline and 2ce for instance as they are so similar and could lead to overstimulation, although I'm sure it would likely still be a great experience given the right setting). And realistically one should keep it to no more than 3(although I've broken this rule when adding things like weed, Kratom or nitrous) because still so little is known about interactions.

Don't dive blindly into combos because many a diver as found the water to be shallow, make sure you measure everything first. It's also a good idea to know each chemical individually and how you respond to different doses and changes before mixing two or more things together.
 
I'll throw my two cents in regarding the most well known "classical" psychedelics (although as stated by Solipsis and others it's hard to define and depends largely who you talk to).

Srooms, Cacti, Ayahuasca/DMT, and LSD(maybe LSA but I feel it's less common in the popular consciousness these days idk) are the ones that I think of when I hear the term 'classical psychedelics' as it relates to my perception of the general consciousness about these ,.............. novel compounds, mostly coming from pihkal and tihkal
-Broadened 'classical' psychedelic combos: 2C-E and 2C-T-2(caution with this one, although I and my friends had no ill effects), 2C-E and LSD, 2C-E 2C-T-2 and LSD, also DMT with all previous combos and I almost forgot 4-HO-MET and 5Meo-MiPT(4+8 spac
Nonsense! Morning glory is still an ally in central america. Did you ever have T7?
 
I'm really considering hitting some dmt on 2c-c... I'm on the stuff most of my life these days anyway.

I prefer to work with essential oils when developing suitable combinations. Those are my two favourite psychedelics though, by far, out of them all, 2c-c and dmt have done the most for me. Sure there are lots of factors that went into that, but those were the chemical catalysts that manifested as life changing for me.

Everything else was really just leading up to that. I wasn't really using them to their full potential before, as I had not yet reached mine. Every trip was worthwhile but those are the two that really have manifested in noticeable life changes for me.
 
5-MeO-DMT is of course another cassic psychedelic, and it is important to notice, because it is so different to DMT. As many people tend to say, 5-MeO-DMT is equivalent to the power and DMT is equivalent to the glory.

Nonsense! Morning glory is still an ally in central america. Did you ever have T7?
Do you really mean that 2C-T-7 is superior to 2C-T-2? I have not tried both of them, even though I have both of them at home.
 
Pharmacologically it's safe to mix classical psyche. Wouldn't be physically harmful. Just would increase the intensity of the experience and cause the two substances to synergize in some fashion. I have knew a guy who took DMT while on acid. They said that the DMT pretty much overpowered the acid. But then when the DMT wore off they were still tripping. This really changed the experience but he found it enlightening and enjoyable. Obviously, this wouldn't be the case for everyone..... and some may be frightened by this aspect of the experience.

I've also knew someone who smoked salvia while on mushrooms. She said that it caused anxiety that ruined the rest of the mushroom trip..... which was a good trip prior to the salvia which caused it to go bad. She said that after this she used mushrooms and salvia separately with positive experiences (though salvia is frightening on its own to most people).
 
5-MeO-DMT is of course another cassic psychedelic, and it is important to notice, because it is so different to DMT. As many people tend to say, 5-MeO-DMT is equivalent to the power and DMT is equivalent to the glory.


Do you really mean that 2C-T-7 is superior to 2C-T-2? I have not tried both of them, even though I have both of them at home.

It was for me, and the two others I shared T2 with...preferred the T7. But it seems to vary, certainly some BLers found T2 preferable. For me, T2 lacked the MDMA-like entactogenic effects, it also tends to make me severely sick. There is a purge with T7 but I still feel GOOD! T2 just....didn't feel so good.

Ymmv as they say.

5Meo-Dmt is as classic as it gets. In my world, it is the ORIGINAL sacrament. Good medicine.
 
is 5-meo-dmt a must try? have some experience vaping the freebase of dmt, but never 5-meo-dmt.
 
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