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Chronic LSD Psychosis?

Icculus said:
His problems flared up much faster than normal schizophrenia develops. .

You obviously know very, very little about schizophrenia to even say this.

Syd had predisposed mental condition, and LSD brought it out much more intense and probably a lot sooner than if he hadn't taken it.

If you want to believe this there's nothing anyone can do to stop you. There's no evidence to support it whatsoever.

John Lennon didn't have a predisposed mental illness, and he was still going a little batty.


No more batty than Lennon always was.

Read the Pink Floyd biography "A Saucerfull of Secrets,"

I've read it. There's a lot of clueless hippies who half-knew Syd saying "He took 3 hits and that means you're legally insane, it was the acids fault."

then do a couple years of work with schizophrenic patients

A close friend of mine is schizophrenic, I've seen the illness develop and manifest at first hand. I've forgotten more about schizophrenia than you'll ever know.
 
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Lennon=legend. Nuff said.

So you guys are happy arguin in here? I'll just duck out then ;)
 
Lennon had his head on straight when he was assassinated. I believe the killer was a Manchurian Candidate. There's a good book about Lennon's assassination called, "Who killed John Lennon" by fenton bressler (I have it on my bookshelf). His last CD, Live at madison Square garden was spot-on. He was assassinated, like Martin Luther King (today is MLK's assassination anneversary) because Lennon was getting his revolutionary sh*t together, being influenced by Jerry Rubin and other radicals. Lennon had enough power over the media to have anything he said spread throughout the media. Imagine (one of his best songs) if Lennon started saying: "666isMONEY"!

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions (money)
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
 
^I doubt that Mark Chapman was working for anything deeper then his twisted head at the time. But thanks for posting those lyrics; now I'ma have to dig up the tune :)
 
otacon451 said:
i assume you are differentiating from the onset of schizophrenia or other disorders?

anecdotally, i know a person who, for years after a high lsd dose, believes he controls the rain. im sure we all know a few casualties.

"Summation
Whether the use of LSD can cause a prolonged psychosis is not evidenced in the literature, although case studies report that this does happen. This however is not confirmed by quantitative research studies. Studies using a prospective methodology would be best suited to determine this, but can no longer be employed for legal reasons. A study which did use a prospective approach reported no prolonged psychotic reactions. The literature is divided as to whether there is a difference between Schizophrenia and any psychosis thought to be a consequence of LSD use. If the use of LSD coincides with the first onset of Schizophrenia, this may be for a number of reasons, perhaps involving attempts at self-medication. The evidence of LSD advancing the onset of Schizophrenia is dubious, the research unclear in its use of controls, statistics and methodology. "
-A Critical Review of Theories and Research Concerning Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (LSD) and Mental Health

Why does he hate britain?
 
No, the man referred to in the emboldened text.

I've reread what i quoted and said and i cannot understand why you'd think i am referring to lennon!

It's a wane joke for sure.
 
yes abad trip can last a lifetime, same as a good trip, i've had over 800 trips only 2 bad and they still cause problems--especially fear of takind more LSD-%)
 
swilow said:
ANYONE can 'attain' an anxiety/PTSD type problem from using psychedelics; I have defintely had moments of extreme terror that still affect me adversely.
If you don't mind sharing, I'm curious - what are the ongoing adverse affects?
 
chicpoena said:
This whole argument seems to be resting on the conception of schizophrenia as an actual illness, which it is not. Schizophrenia is a misnomer, and there is a movement in psychology to eliminate the term because it doesn't really describe anything. If you have 2 off this list and 1 off this list, you're schizophrenic? It reads like a recipe! People certainly go psychotic, and may remain psychotic for their whole lives, but they are not suffering from a biological disease like many people think of when they think of schizophrenia.

The truth is that psychiatrists cannot even define schizophrenia and the diagnosis itself has been found over and over again to be invalid because of poor inter-rater reliability. One psychiatrist may decide you are schizophrenic. Another one may decide that you are bipolar instead. Because "schizophrenia" is an umbrella term that covers a wide variety of very different symptoms (catatonia, hallucinations) it is impossible to define it.

Not even to mention the fact that the World Health Organization study on schizophrenia found that people in first world countries were far more likely to suffer from it than those in third world countries, and that schizophrenics in third world countries have much higher permanent recovery rates (no psychotic relapses). This is because the psychotic experience is built into a lot of third world cultures... spirit possession is one common explanation they use. Because psychotic people are not told that they have a brain disease (they actually don't), and it is recognized that they are going through a powerful transformative experience (which may appear to be negative), after the resolution of said experience the formerly psychotic person is far more emotionally healthy. Psychotic people in the first world are pariahs who are either medicated to the point where they cannot think straight or locked up in institutions (rare today). There is no community support for the psychotic, and their experiences are denigrated.

As far as my beliefs with "Chronic LSD psychosis," it is no surprise that LSD is an extremely powerful psychic catalyst. The experiences that it can open up inside of you could be so traumatizing, that the trauma itself is what makes you psychotic. Then, if you're told by a psychiatrist you've now "caught" schizophrenia from LSD, you're told take psychiatric drugs to dull the experience instead of fully processing it. That's where the real damage takes place.

I have never taken LSD, but I did abuse mushrooms while I was emotionally unstable. Had I gone to a psychiatrist and told him what I was experiencing, I almost surely would have been diagnosed schizophrenic and medicated, if not committed. I struggled with psychosis for about a year, year and a half, before I emerged from it. I am now far more emotionally balanced, happy, and spiritually open. I am thankful for having gone through it, although at the time I ranged from suicidal to apathetically depressed, because it gave me true insight into the nature of my mind and my life as a human BEing.

Stanislav Grof's book Spiritual Emergency, and a very kind and thoughtful psychotherapist helped me process my psychosis. Now I am a whole person.

<3

Word. I think you got the right idea.
 
stillmind said:
If you don't mind sharing, I'm curious - what are the ongoing adverse affects?

Well, I've had panic attacks related to PTSD for years; psychedelics have helped in giving me the strength to endure these attacks, but some of the heavier, less-integratable experiences, such as salvia, left me kinda shaken- for the better. I don't see these things as negative effects really- waking up is never going to be easy.
 
Current research isn't entirely conclusive (which is enough of a reason to be careful), but studies seem to point to the idea that LSD is more likely a trigger rather than a cause of psychosis. While that DOES suggest that only a minority is susceptible to LSD-induced psychosis, there is no way to be certain whether or not you are predisposed.

Sure, the chances may be low, but it is all the same not worth fooling around with. Don't get me wrong, I love LSD but it MUST be taken seriously. Having dealt with mental illness both personally and in my family, and having frequently suffered the pain of kidney stones, I can honestly say that your mind is the LAST thing you want to gamble with.
 
emjay said:
Current research isn't entirely conclusive (which is enough of a reason to be careful), but studies seem to point to the idea that LSD is more likely a trigger rather than a cause of psychosis. While that DOES suggest that only a minority is susceptible to LSD-induced psychosis, there is no way to be certain whether or not you are predisposed.

But LSD is no more a trigger than having a job, or having a girlfriend, or getting out of bed, or simply being alive.

If LSD or cannabis triggered psychosis then we would have seen a massive jump in the number of psychotic people over the last 40 years - certainly the figure should be far greater than the era before psychedelics and widespread cannabis use. It isn't - rates of psychosis over the last 100 years are the same or slightly decreased.

So after 40 years of millions of people using LSD/cannabis, there are no more psychotic people than there were before anyone ever used LSD/cannabis. That's pretty powerful evidence that LSD isn't causing psychosis.
 
My bad trips were caused by being around BAD "friends" or in one case getting busted 4 DUI while tripping. I'm still suffering from the DUI bust . . . hafta have a Breathalyser in the car. I think the LSD caused bad judgement, plus I was acting silly with mood swings . . . I shoulda told the cop the truth that I had a coupla drinks and was headed home, less than a mile away. When I lied and said I wasn't drinking, the cop was pissed and told me to "get out of the car!" I asked a cop teaching one of the classes I went to if he woulda let me go and he said, "yes."

I think LSD would solve allot of ppl's problems. I gave cid to a friend 4 the first time. She had a bad trip but now has really sobered up, don't know if the 'cid had anything 2 do with it but I'll bet she really saw who her friends are and what a BAD situation she was in.
 
Ismene said:
So after 40 years of millions of people using LSD/cannabis, there are no more psychotic people than there were before anyone ever used LSD/cannabis. That's pretty powerful evidence that LSD isn't causing psychosis.

Are you sure theres no more psychosis now then 'before'? I'd like a source for that.... Personally, I have no doubt that both LSD and cannabis can cause psychosis, just as I have no doubt a mean father can. Anything tramuatic or intense experience can scar. Some acid casualites may not be textbook psychotic and therefore may not be in your statistics, but there is a reason why we have terms like 'acid-heads' and 'perma-fried'- whilst its hard to say whats has happened to these people, I KNOW I have met indivduals who appear to be suffering from excessive LSD/psychedelic use- sufffering I say, except it doesn't always appear to be a negative thing though.
 
swilow said:
Are you sure theres no more psychosis now then 'before'? I'd like a source for that...

He and his colleague Professor Illana Crome, of Keele's academic psychiatry unit, used data from 183 GP practices across Britain between 1996 and 2005 to work out whether schizophrenia is on the rise, and whether it can be linked to the increase in cannabis use since the 1970s.

Their confidential paper found that between 1996 and 2005 there had been significant reductions in the incidence and prevalence of schizophrenia. From 2000 onwards there were also significant reductions in the prevalence of psychoses.

The authors say this data is "not consistent with the hypothesis that increasing cannabis use in earlier decades is associated with increasing schizophrenia or psychoses from the mid-1990s onwards."

The research was designed to test the predictions of a previous study, published last year by Dr Matthew Hickman and colleagues at Bristol University, which suggested that changes in cannabis use since the 1970s would lead to expectations that the prevalence of schizophrenia cases would increase by 10% to 20% over the next few years. The results show that not only has there been no increase but the number of new cases has dropped


http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=128165


The most that can be said with certainty is that mental health facilities have not reported clear increases in psychotic disorders. There are a number of estimates of the prevalence of these disorders, most of which range from 0.7-2.0%, though others estimate as high as 5%. The generally accepted standard appears to be around 1%.11,12

There is evidence that the rate of schizophrenia and psychotic disorders has "either been stable or slightly decreased" over the past 40 years.4 Degenhardt et al. (2003) tested the hypothesis that cannabis use caused an increase in cases of schizophrenia that would not have otherwise occurred. They examined the rates of schizophrenia and related outcomes in Australia among populations born between 1940 and 1979 and found no increase in psychotic disorder rates. They concluded that a direct causal connection was unlikely:

"The hypothesis that cannabis causes schizophrenia was not supported by the data on trends in the incidence of this psychosis in Australia. There was no evidence that there has been an increase in incidence over the past 30 years of the magnitude predicted by the hypothesis..."11


http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_health3.shtml

Anything tramuatic or intense experience can scar.

True, but I don't believe being scarred makes you mentally ill. If you arn't mentally ill in the first place a bad trip isn't going to trigger you into psychosis, just like most of us can handle our girlfriends leaving us without being triggered into psychosis.

but there is a reason why we have terms like 'acid-heads' and 'perma-fried'

Yeah but there's also terms like "the bloke who thinks he's a glass of orange juice". Don't you think these terms have more to do with teenage urban myths than reality? I'm not convinced all those teenagers who claim someone is an "e-tard" or "perma-fried" have conducted serious psychological diagnosis. I think they've said "He's an e-tard" because it sounds more romantic and exciting to their mates than "He's mentally ill".
 
^Okay I hear what your saying, but I still believe that these drugs can cause the onset of latent mental illness. I would hazard to say that cannabis can really cause anxiety- physiologically. That has been my experience. One thing though- are these studies looking at actual pot smokers or just the general population? Theres nothing to suggest that all people who experience psychosis report it; theres also a pretty favourable argument saying that pot-smokers would be less likely to report such effects, what with the weed culture of anti-authorithy blahblahness.

I guess psychedelics and the culture around them do actually attract quite a lot of mentally ill people.... But as I said, I've been around drug use for years and seen quite a lot of mental illness; whether that be my circle or the result of drugs, who knows? That said, I think amphetamines and coke cause more ilness then every psychedelic ever combined at once....or something.

Thanks for the link though Ismene, appreciate it. :)
 
This has just become a discussion of semantics. Defining "trauma" and "psychosis" is essential when assessing the negative consequences from the abuse of psychedelics in relation to the above statistics.

Regardless of what the states are called, many of us here have experienced first hand and/or witnessed second hand long lasting adverse effects of excess usage of certain drugs.

They may not be classified as schizophrenia, or psychosis. Sufferers may not even consult a doctor at all. There're reasons why the above statistics have little baring on whether these chemicals can have long term negative repercussions or not.

Now i'm not trying to scare anyone out of experiencing the many wonderful places these drugs can take you. Just don't abuse the shit. Any of it. Periods of sobriety is the best tool for ensuring that the most is taken from these experiences.

btw: thanks to those who pm'd me. yeah i'm alright. :) <3

edit: nb, this was written before i saw swilow's post.
 
swilow said:
Thanks for the link though Ismene, appreciate it. :)

You are welcome swilow :)

L2R said:
Regardless of what the states are called, many of us here have experienced first hand and/or witnessed second hand long lasting adverse effects of excess usage of certain drugs.

Yeah but the trouble is this is all anecdotal evidence. You may know someone who has taken LSD and has now got schizophrenia so you automatically think "It's the LSD". It might not be - most anecodotes arn't coming from trained psychologists.

100 years ago you could find thousands of anecodotal reports about masturbation causing insanity, I'm sure if I'd been on bluelight back in the victorian era and said "masturbation doesn't cause insanity" someone would have said "We all know someone who has masturbated and is now insane".

There're reasons why the above statistics have little baring on whether these chemicals can have long term negative repercussions or not.


I dunno, I think if the government could find the slightest, remotest evidence that cannabis or LSD caused mental illness then it would be screaming it from the rooftops. The fact that the governments own advisory committee can't even find anything is pretty telling.

With drugs occupying the same position as the scourge of society that masturbation did in the victorian era it's very interesting to read accounts of masturbatory insanity - if you substitute the word drugs for masturbation you could be reading an account from yesterday.

I don't agree with a lot of Thomas Szasz but this certainly rings a bell. Each era has it's own evil - from masturbation to homosexuality to drugs and each "evil" in turn gets blamed for causing insanity. Surely this can't be a coincidence?

None of psychiatry’s classic mistakes—from masturbatory insanity and its cures, to the disease of homosexuality and its compulsory treatment with “aversion therapy,” and to the attribution of the cause of schizophrenia to reverberating circuits in the frontal lobes and its cure with lobotomy (rewarded with a Nobel Prize in Medicine)—are “innocent” errors. Invariably, the false belief and the medical interventions it appears to justify serves the needs of the believers, especially the relatives of “patients” who seek control over the misbehavior of their “loved ones,” and the physicians who gain prestige and power by “diagnosing” and “treating” misbehavior as if it were disease.
 
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Thanks ismene, i was considering starting a thread on whether there was a correlation between increased cannabis use and schizophrenia.

It's particular interesting given that i would guess the timeframe would also include the proposed increase in cannabis strength.
 
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