Cannabis and my Psychosis

[aokorn]

I had acute psychosis long years ago, which later turned into bipolar disorder. I think that my psychosis from cannabis use started when I was 23 years old (now I am 63). In the beginning I was treated with Zyprexa (Olanzapine). But I had many side effects, some of which were very severe. I remember very well that I had so much heartburn that I often woke up in the middle of the night and could not fall asleep. My psychiatrist (after a new episode of psychosis) then prescribed me a new therapy. Risperidone (2mg) and in the evening 200mg Seroquel. Also Cymblta (Duloxetine) 30mg. After a couple of years I stopped taking Cymbalta (I lost 15 kg after 14 days). I feel very good now and sleep very well. I have also not taken cannabis for 1.5 years and have no cravings for it. I am 'high' enough as it is. What is very important though: I am not allowed to drink alcohol. I tried it once and felt awful afterwards!

 

[steewith2ees]

I had acute psychosis long years ago, which later turned into bipolar disorder. I think that my psychosis from cannabis use started when I was 23 years old (now I am 63). In the beginning I was treated with Zyprexa (Olanzapine). But I had many side effects, some of which were very severe. I remember very well that I had so much heartburn that I often woke up in the middle of the night and could not fall asleep. My psychiatrist (after a new episode of psychosis) then prescribed me a new therapy. Risperidone (2mg) and in the evening 200mg Seroquel. Also Cymblta (Duloxetine) 30mg. After a couple of years I stopped taking Cymbalta (I lost 15 kg after 14 days). I feel very good now and sleep very well. I have also not taken cannabis for 1.5 years and have no cravings for it. I am 'high' enough as it is. What is very important though: I am not allowed to drink alcohol. I tried it once and felt awful afterwards!

Welcome to Bluelight aokorn!

While I cannot personally relate to any of the grief you have possibly (probably) endured from dealing with a severe and enduring psychotic mental illness (as a neurotic of 20+ years, I am what the mental health profession refers to as a member of 'The Worried Well), the amount of seriously ill people I have worked with in similar situations is beyond count as I used to work as an RMN in a variety of settings. The side effects from neuroleptics, even the modern 'atypical' examples such as olanzapine, must just suck ass, despite the good I believe they can do at least in the short term (I have seen olanzapine save the lives of patients experiencing psychiatric emergencies). With respect to cannabis, despite my life long love for the drug I have never seen it benefit those experiencing psychotic episodes, particularly in the case of chronic relapsing schizophrenia where a significant minority of patients (approx 25%) never gain objective insight into their delusions. While working as a Staff (and eventually Charge) Nurse in adult inpatient units it was a common occurrence to see such service users take themselves off the ward for a couple of hours for legitimate leave, only to return in a highly disordered state due to having smoked weed while out, the result being, more often than not, a spectacular exacerbation of positive symptoms such as auditory hallucinations and highly distressing delusional architecture.

Thats just my 2 cents as an invested observer. I am glad to see you having had such a significant recovery and hope you will continue to share and contribute your thoughts and experiences.

Stee

 

[aokorn]

With respect to cannabis, despite my life long love for the drug I have never seen it benefit those experiencing psychotic episodes, particularly in the case of chronic relapsing schizophrenia where a significant minority of patients (approx 25%) never gain objective insight into their delusions. While working as a Staff (and eventually Charge) Nurse in adult inpatient units it was a common occurrence to see such service users take themselves off the ward for a couple of hours for legitimate leave, only to return in a highly disordered state due to having smoked weed while out, the result being, more often than not, a spectacular exacerbation of positive symptoms such as auditory hallucinations and highly distressing delusional architecture.

In literature you can find the metaphor Pandora's Box, which means that you 'open' something that is actually not good for you (or for everyone). In this world, there are countless Pandora's boxes, but they are not visible at first glance. When you are young, one Pandora's Box is the world of drugs. It's actually, or it doesn't seem to be a big box at all at first. And you're curious and you open it. The bad thing is that you then put yourself in danger of dealing only with that one Pandora's Box. And you rummage around in it. But there are so many (good) Pandoras Boxes in the world, e.g. school, reading, music, love, travel...
So I started using cannabis when I was 23 years old. At first it was interesting. But then I started to get intoxicated and to get into new situations. I wanted to 'get behind it', because when you are high, there is always something 'more'.
At the beginning you have the courage and the will to control everything. But suddenly everything collapses, you become psyhotic. Of course, this is not true for everyone, but a couple of them fall by the wayside. Too bad.
They themselves become strange 'Pandora's Boxes' for family and friends. And if they are unlucky, also for the psychiatrists....

I do not want to create panic. Those who read this should know how I think about it.

 

[Jackal]

I had acute psychosis long years ago, which later turned into bipolar disorder. I think that my psychosis from cannabis use started when I was 23 years old (now I am 63). In the beginning I was treated with Zyprexa (Olanzapine). But I had many side effects, some of which were very severe. I remember very well that I had so much heartburn that I often woke up in the middle of the night and could not fall asleep. My psychiatrist (after a new episode of psychosis) then prescribed me a new therapy. Risperidone (2mg) and in the evening 200mg Seroquel. Also Cymblta (Duloxetine) 30mg. After a couple of years I stopped taking Cymbalta (I lost 15 kg after 14 days). I feel very good now and sleep very well. I have also not taken cannabis for 1.5 years and have no cravings for it. I am 'high' enough as it is. What is very important though: I am not allowed to drink alcohol. I tried it once and felt awful afterwards!

I am curious how you became psychotic 40 years ago and "in the beginning" were prescribed Zyprexa - which would not become used as a medication for some 13 years after that point?

 

[Frog Dreams]

I'm not at all convinced that marijuana causes permanent psychotic conditions (perhaps?) but it is definitely up there with meth in terms of causing temporary psychosis.

People consume way too high doses of THC these days.

I used to combine dexamphetamine with weed very regularly. This caused me to have very large doses of THC. I would have two gram edibles sometimes, made using a high potency strain. The dexamphetamine removed all potential for paranoia.

Since then, I have stopped consuming dexamphetamine... but I continued for a while to take these high doses of weed because it had become the norm.

Now, about an eighth of a gram (of the same strain) is the right dose for me when I want to be functional.
A quarter of a gram is strong.
Half a gram is very strong.

 

[Ismene2]

What kind of psychosis? Schizophrenia? Why do you think cannabis the cause?

 

[aokorn]

I am curious how you became psychotic 40 years ago and "in the beginning" were prescribed Zyprexa - which would not become used as a medication for some 13 years after that point?

Yes you are right. In the beginning I was treated with Nozinan (levomepromazine) and a little later with Melleril (thioridazine hydrochloride - very strong), Prazine (promazine hydrochloride) and then for a very long time with Lyogen (fluphenazine). Only then did they give me Zyprexa.

What kind of psychosis? Schizophrenia? Why do you think cannabis the cause?

It lasted about 2 years after I started smoking cannabis: I was admitted to a psychiatric clinic. Diagnosis: Acute psychosis with schizophrenic picture.

Why I think cannabis was the cause? Well, I discovered something with cannabis use that I didn't know before. A world that was different from mine. It was linked to interpersonal relationships that I didn't know before. Exactly the same as in the intoxication I then also experienced in my psychotic episode.

The high revealed something to me that I didn't know before and that doesn't exist in the real world.

I opened Pandora's Box.

 

[Frog Dreams]

@aokorn

Can you elaborate on what it revealed?
Describe this world you're talking about.

What is the link to interpersonal relationships?

Why do you think most people don't develop permanent psychotic conditions from cannabis?

 

[Bleaney]

AFAIK, cannabis could only cause permanent psychosis in susceptible people with such a predisposition.

Kind of similar to, but rarer than, overuse of LSD doing the same thing, but again that only happens in susceptible people with that kind of predisposition.

Most famous examples being Syd Barrett and Peter Green.

 

[aokorn]

Can you elaborate on what it revealed?
Describe this world you're talking about.

What is the link to interpersonal relationships?

Why do you think most people don't develop permanent psychotic conditions from cannabis?

That's a lot of deep questions. Each of them would need a lot of knowledge and familiarity of my person. But this would far exceed the scope of this forum. I'll try to answer anyway, as I've pieced things together over time.

When I was high I 'felt what I saw and saw what I felt'. At the time I explained it to myself like this: the barrier between the cerebellum and the cerebrum was broken by the THC in a certain way. This brings many consequences: in the course of time our subconscious mind is filled with many impressions, learned and experienced. Especially in the first years of our life, when we still have to cope with our experiences alone (as well as in the very late years of our life). We had to cope alone between 'good and bad', between 'right and wrong'. When we get high (or during psychosis) all this comes into our consciousness at once. You have to be very strong to cope with all this. During a psychosis one is not able to do this. So when you get into interaction with other people, there is a possible and impossible conglomeration of thoughts and emotions. Because other people have partly completely different perceptions of 'right and wrong' and 'good and bad'...

Much is also dependent on the generally accepted norms.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I'm not at all convinced that marijuana causes permanent psychotic conditions (perhaps?)

Used daily, from a young age, data is highly suggestive it can lead to such a permanent malady.

The thing about permanent psychosis or schizophrenia is there never any 1 causative factor you can isolate. Its generally a combination of things on top of genetic predisposition.

If cannabis use caused such a thing, it's likely that some other trigger may have caused it later on if they never had used cannabis.

 

[Frog Dreams]

@Snafu in the Void

Yeah, that's how I feel about it.

LSD can easily trigger psychosis if you're "prone" to it. Meth, too. Also, ketamine and many other drugs.

I've experienced temporary psychosis from numerous drugs. Also, my cousin is schizophrenic and my ex-wife had a psychotic meltdown (that lasted weeks) from LSD... Also, I have professionally supported many schizophrenic people over the years.

As for permanence with psychosis, there is no such thing necessarily. They are now saying that schizophrenia goes away, on average 35 years after diagnosis. I realize that's a long time, but it's hugely important to note that this isn't necessarily for the rest of our lives.

When I was high I 'felt what I saw and saw what I felt'. At the time I explained it to myself like this: the barrier between the cerebellum and the cerebrum was broken by the THC in a certain way. This brings many consequences: in the course of time our subconscious mind is filled with many impressions, learned and experienced. Especially in the first years of our life, when we still have to cope with our experiences alone (as well as in the very late years of our life). We had to cope alone between 'good and bad', between 'right and wrong'. When we get high (or during psychosis) all this comes into our consciousness at once. You have to be very strong to cope with all this. During a psychosis one is not able to do this. So when you get into interaction with other people, there is a possible and impossible conglomeration of thoughts and emotions. Because other people have partly completely different perceptions of 'right and wrong' and 'good and bad'...

I didn't understand any of that, honestly.

What type of schizophrenia?

Are you doing drugs? (Why are you on Bluelight?)

If you are schizophrenic, you should avoid recreational drug use.

AFAIK, cannabis could only cause permanent psychosis in susceptible people with such a predisposition.

I question the word "cause", but (otherwise) I understand what you're saying and agree with you to some extent.

Schizophrenia is often not triggered by drugs. There are non-drug triggers. My cousin never had weed, for example, or any other drug. He is heavily schizophrenic. So, what caused it there?

We are quick to say drugs cause it, but we don't say anything else causes it.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

As for permanence with psychosis, there is no such thing necessarily. They are now saying that schizophrenia goes away, on average 35 years after diagnosis. I realize that's a long time, but it's hugely important to note that this isn't necessarily for the rest of our lives.

Yeah, it's pretty odd how there is a very prevalent misconception about schizophrenia being permanent in all cases, or that it's purely a genetic disease. From what I've read about 25% recover fully from the condition after treatment, and symptoms never return. 50% recover to a point where they are mostly symptom free and can function in life (with continuous medication). There are genes linked to schizophrenia, but not everyone with those genes develops it.

I had my own extended psychosis from a combination of extreme psychedelic use, alcoholism, cannabis/kratom/other drugs. All compounded by chronic insomnia/stress/malnutrition. Symptoms lasted 9+ months, but for the most part were clinically mild symptoms (I never experienced delusion/paranoia). My shrink actually diagnosed me with drug induced schizophrenia, but seemed unsure about it. I never even met the full criteria for the condition because I never had any "negative" symptoms. I think it lasted so long because I did not quit all drug use, only psychedelics and alcohol, I continued using cannabis and kratom which made the symptoms last longer.

I did fully recover, though. Certain drugs effect me more negatively now, and I am more prone to things such as stim psychosis now, but that's normal for everyone who has experienced any psychosis. You'll always be more prone to it afterwards.

I was a heavy cannabis user starting from age 11. I smoked daily from age 12-29. I suspect it may have contributed to my psychosis, but who's to say.

 

[Frog Dreams]

Some people confuse non-dual states for psychosis. Psychiatrists don't understand non-duality.

I have been in non-dual for months. Lots of people think I'm crazy.

I'm curious, with you, if you didn't have any negative symptoms and it was triggered by heavy psychedelic use... was it psychosis?

I've been diagnosed with about half a dozen different things. Rather than going to the same psychiatrist, I went to about four different shrinks in a short period of time and they all diagnosed me with different disorders. One of them was depressive psychotic disorder. I don't believe there is anything wrong with me. Belief is a powerful thing. Accepting diagnosis is not always the best thing to do, IMO. I am not a fan of psychiatry. I tend to think most (if not all) mental illnesses can be cured by 5-meo-DMT. There is an increasing amount of evidence to support this.

Psychedelics (IMO) cure the "human condition". They cause people (sometimes) to be so far out there that others think they are sick. But, perhaps it is the other people who are sick?

If you reject the healing of psychedelics, it can definitely send you down dark and confusing paths... but that is part of the process. Maybe some people stop their treatment in this state and therefore develop "disorders".

Strong psych medicine taken with a trained and reputable facilitator can fix pretty much anything as far as I'm concerned, including lots of physical ailments.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

@Frog Dreams I was definitely hearing voices, having alienated thoughts, various HPPD like visual hallucinations and such.

I never lost touch with reality or was delusional. I kept my job during most of it, until all the meds I was on started making me fall asleep at work.

Idk if it was really a true psychosis or just brain damage.

I felt a lot better after quitting all the meds and drugs as well. Letting my brain reset on it's own is how I recovered. The meds never really helped to begin with.

 

[Frog Dreams]

@Snafu in the Void

Fair enough. Hearing voices ain't good. You said no negative symptoms. I'd call that a negative symptom... depending on what they're saying I guess. Could you determine what they were saying?

What were the alienated thoughts?

I've had HPPD every day for over 15 years. Nothing wrong with HPPD.

Do you really live in a giant bucket?

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Fair enough. Hearing voices ain't good. You said no negative symptoms. I'd call that a negative symptom... depending on what they're saying I guess. Could you determine what they were saying?

hallucinations in schizophrenia are called "positive" symptoms

"negative" symptoms of schizophrenia include difficulty communicating, catatonia, loss of mental or physical function, etc

What were the alienated thoughts?

My internal dialogue would sound like someone else was talking to me. It was my voice, but was telling me things that weren't my thoughts. Very weird.

I would also constantly hear music playing in my head. It would never stop. Like getting a song stuck in your head, but much more extreme and unwanted. Reading the word "bad" in the newspaper would trigger my brain to start playing "Michael Jackson - Bad" in my head for the rest of the day. It was pretty fucking annoying tbh.

Do you really live in a giant bucket?

It's all one big giant bucket maaaaan

 

[Frog Dreams]

I would also constantly hear music playing in my head. It would never stop. Like getting a song stuck in your head, but much more extreme and unwanted.

Wow. That struck a chord with me.

I've been getting that, on and off, for at least a year.

Sometimes it's a section of a song that goes on and on all fucking day.

Feels like OCD or something. I can't stop it. It can definitely be frustrating.

My best guess is that I really desperately want to listen to music. That is what my brain is telling me. If I listen to music, it always goes away.

...

I see what you mean about positive / negative symptoms. Gotcha. I'm obviously not familiar with the terminology.

My internal dialogue would sound like someone else was talking to me. It was my voice, but was telling me things that weren't my thoughts. Very weird.

They have to be your thoughts, though, right? They can't come from somewhere else.

Perhaps the psychosis is the belief that the voices are coming from somewhere else?

(Let me know if you don't want me to psychoanalyze you. I mean no harm.)

How did you know they weren't your thoughts?
Can you give me a couple of examples?

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Wow. That struck a chord with me.

I've been getting that, on and off, for at least a year.

Sometimes it's a section of a song that goes on and on all fucking day.

Feels like OCD or something. I can't stop it. It can definitely be frustrating.

My best guess is that I really desperately want to listen to music. That is what my brain is telling me. If I listen to music, it always goes away.

Yeah, usually it's just like 5 second snippets of a song, played over and over on repeat.

I've noticed using kratom makes it 10x worse. These days it mostly goes away when I stop or lower my kratom use.

I think it's the brain trying to make sense of random neuronal noise, idk.

It started during the psychosis, and it's really the only symptom that never went away fully.

And yeah it does feel OCD like, because when I hear the music sometimes I will also have very repetitive thoughts.

How did you know they weren't your thoughts?
Can you give me a couple of examples?

Well, just for one example, I would hear my inner dialogue saying or doing things that did not make sense. Like laughing at me, or barking at me like a dog.

It wasn't like hearing a voice, because it was my own voice, on the same level as the inner dialogue I think with. Just saying/doing completely nonsensical things, unprompted.

 

[Frog Dreams]

Sometimes, I wake up in the morning with a loop going.
Like as soon as I open my eyes, it is looping in my head.

It's nice to hear about someone experiencing the same thing... although, for me, it started happening completely separately (years apart) from any psychotic symptoms.