Dissociatives Can you self medicate with ketamine for anxiety and depression

[RT_4]

I know Ketamine treatment exists and it proves decently well for treatment resistant depression. However, I often wonder is that possible to do with street ketamine, say you took 1G (more or less depending on tolerance) every so often would that help in a similar way. I understand that in actual ketamine infusions they give you a stupid high dose. But sometimes when K hole the next few days i notice a positive afterglow in me and I feel quite chatty (like today for example) I felt completely normal it had like my anxiety had vanished completely. I was just wondering if anyone has any positive expierences with ketamine regarding their mental health. If so how often would you use it?

 

[RUC4]

I’ve read about using ketamine for depression these days. From what I’ve read, the “sessions” need to be in a controlled environment with medical professionals.

(Excerpts taken from This Article)

• “Ketamine is commonly administered intravenously in the dose of 0.5 mg/kg. However, benefits and adverse effects are probably dose-dependent in the range of 0.10-0.75 mg/kg.
• Ketamine may be administered as rapidly as in a bolus dose to as slowly as across 100 minutes. Sessions that are 40 minutes in duration are conventional, especially with intravenous dosing.
• Ketamine is safe and effective when administered by oral, sublingual, transmucosal, intranasal, intravenous, intramuscular, and subcutaneous routes. Bioavailability is best when ketamine is administered parenterally or intranasally. Oral, subcutaneous, and intranasal delivery are perhaps the most practical methods.
• Ketamine sessions can be repeated (if necessary, at higher doses) to elicit response in patients who do not respond. Sessions can be repeated to extend and maintain response in those who do benefit. Repeated sessions at suitably spaced intervals have been described across weeks to years of treatment in refractory cases.”

 

[Bitchniggaz]

I’ve read about using ketamine for depression these days. From what I’ve read, the “sessions” need to be in a controlled environment with medical professionals.

(Excerpts taken from This Article)

• “Ketamine is commonly administered intravenously in the dose of 0.5 mg/kg. However, benefits and adverse effects are probably dose-dependent in the range of 0.10-0.75 mg/kg.
• Ketamine may be administered as rapidly as in a bolus dose to as slowly as across 100 minutes. Sessions that are 40 minutes in duration are conventional, especially with intravenous dosing.
• Ketamine is safe and effective when administered by oral, sublingual, transmucosal, intranasal, intravenous, intramuscular, and subcutaneous routes. Bioavailability is best when ketamine is administered parenterally or intranasally. Oral, subcutaneous, and intranasal delivery are perhaps the most practical methods.
• Ketamine sessions can be repeated (if necessary, at higher doses) to elicit response in patients who do not respond. Sessions can be repeated to extend and maintain response in those who do benefit. Repeated sessions at suitably spaced intervals have been described across weeks to years of treatment in refractory cases.”

Im quite sure ket works the same regardless of who and where you take it.
However i def see some benefits of having a trained doctor or psychotherapist nearby.

It probably depends alot on the patient, if its someone who never done drugs, then doing a high dose of ketamine could probably be traumatic or even dangerous if they slip or bump into something while being high.

Also the addictive nature of the drug is less of a factor, if you have to go to the clinic to get dosed there. Compared to buying a bag and hopefully not abuse it.

 

[December Flower]

Im quite sure ket works the same regardless of who and where you take it.
However i def see some benefits of having a trained doctor or psychotherapist nearby.

It probably depends alot on the patient, if its someone who never done drugs, then doing a high dose of ketamine could probably be traumatic or even dangerous if they slip or bump into something while being high.

Also the addictive nature of the drug is less of a factor, if you have to go to the clinic to get dosed there. Compared to buying a bag and hopefully not abuse it.

as a medical professional myself I say a big no to that.
No it does not work the same regardless. These treatments are not just taking the drug,
they are usually taking the drug combined with CT, CBT, even meditation("autogenic training"), and at the very top of the hierarchy: supervision.

You are unable to precisely define your state of mental health, as showing certain "pathology" in your thought-process is equal to you living in your own reality, to a certain degree. If you add a drug such as Ketamine to the mix, you will even become more unprecise in the assessment of self. What is want and what is need? What is necessary, and what is you lying to yourself?

I've seen many people who tried healing themselves with X Y or Z, it really doesn't matter much, if a) the rules are not strictly set and followed, b) you are your only supervisor and can grant yourself 'special treatments' and/or c) you lack the capacity to fully assess your mental health, which, especially in depression is in my experience too hard to do well.

Just get help OP. do not self-medicate.
it creates problems, not solutions

 

[Mjäll]

I find it funny how many people don't believe in awesome drugs on this drug nerd forum.

Of course there are risks but there's nothing to exclude the possibility of achieving therapeutic effects without a clinical setting. The chemical is the facilitator, obviously. Much of the rest is ludditism and gatekeeping from medical professionals.

Is it better to use it recreationally than therapeutically? Isn't the line really blurry? Are you people against responsible private drug use?

I'm not saying no-one could ever use a clinical setting. Just saying that it's not an obvious prerequisite.

With regular use of dissociatives you can fuck your bladder and urinary tract irreversibly, which is a major risk. They should be used very sparingly. It's not weed or something. Also, large doses can increase the risk of blackouts and reckless behavior although ketamine is one of the safer ones in this regard.

1g of ketamine is a massive amount to take in one sitting, regardless of how long the sitting. A good session is more like 50-200mg without tolerance.

 

[December Flower]

I find it funny how many people don't believe in awesome drugs on this drug nerd forum.

Of course there are risks but there's nothing to exclude the possibility of achieving therapeutic effects without a clinical setting. The chemical is the facilitator, obviously. Much of the rest is ludditism from medical professionals.

Is it better to use it recreationally than therapeutically? Isn't the line really blurry? Are you people against drug use?

I'm not saying no-one could ever use a clinical setting. Just saying that it's not an obvious prerequisite.

I am 100% against self-administered drug use, yes.

I can understand in the US it might actually cost money, so yes I agree there are ways to do it alone, if you 100% cannot afford it.
but you need a few things. You need a supervisor or holder of the drug. You need not take the drug recreationally. You need to reflect and write down your findings. There has to be a set dose, and that dose has to be carefully thought-through and administered, no exceptions, ever. And you need to actively do something for your psyche or it will help shit. How you're gonna do CT or CBT to yourself as a non professional, I have no fucking idea. Meditation, healthy diet, sports, you would probably need to include these anyways to get out of depression effectively, since otherwise you just create drug dependance. Use the drug to get to the point where you can motivate yourself to do sports. Then sports from then on.

I also understand that in a drug forum my opinion is not popular, but someone has to say it. Many are just romanticising drugs and what they can do, and that's unhealthy handling of such substances.
I see many people through my job who tried self-medication, how often do you think it works, and how often do you think it gets a lot worse?

 

[Mjäll]

I am 100% against self-administered drug use, yes.

I can understand in the US it might actually cost money, so yes I agree there are ways to do it alone, if you 100% cannot afford it.
but you need a few things. You need a supervisor or holder of the drug. You need not take the drug recreationally. You need to reflect and write down your findings. There has to be a set dose, and that dose has to be carefully thought-through and administered, no exceptions, ever. And you need to actively do something for your psyche or it will help shit. How you're gonna do CT or CBT to yourself as a non professional, I have no fucking idea. Meditation, healthy diet, sports, you would probably need to include these anyways to get out of depression effectively, since otherwise you just create drug dependance. Use the drug to get to the point where you can motivate yourself to do sports. Then sports from then on.

I also understand that in a drug forum my opinion is not popular, but someone has to say it.
I see many people through my job who tried self-medication, how often do you think it works, and how often do you think it gets a lot worse?

I for one didn't say you need CT or CBT exactly, or that those therapies are easy to do by oneself. Therapeutic drugs are often a much more effective alternative for bringing stuff to the surface. What you're saying is to me a bit like saying you need a horse guy to drive a car properly.

I agree that a healthy lifestyle comes first (not necessarily chronologically but in priority). Most people with my opinion would probably strongly recommend a healthy diet, exercise, sober reflection etc as a baseline for drug therapy or a more salient goal. I'm not saying drug therapy is a magical fix.

Your job probably has a biased selection of drug users.

 

[December Flower]

I for one didn't say you need CT or CBT exactly, or that those therapies are easy to do by oneself. Therapeutic drugs are often a much more effective alternative for bringing stuff to the surface. What you're saying is to me a bit like saying you need a horse guy to drive a car properly.

I agree that a healthy lifestyle comes first (not necessarily chronologically but in priority). Most people with my opinion would probably strongly recommend a healthy diet, exercise, sober reflection etc as a baseline for drug therapy or a more salient goal. I'm not saying drug therapy is a magical fix.

Your job probably has a biased selection of drug users.

what's your test group for your findings? you're saying people should use drugs to bring stuff to the surface. Great idea without supervision, wonder who thought of that. There's cases even with supervision where patients killed themselves after bringing something to the surface.

I think you are making your calculation from yourself and maybe a few friends, and that's just not how probability works.

A biased selection of drug users. Funny, coming from your totally biased 100% in favor of drugs basically no danger whatsoever taking shit to the surface that could mentally destroy you no prob whatevs self administering highly addictive substances grreat idea, you will certainly not get a drug problem from that. And yeah ofc they're biased, drugs fucked up their life, usually.

 

[December Flower]

And please, read more carefully:

I didn't say it's impossible, i said that if there are no strict rules you will fail.
if you are able to make said strict rules and follow them perfectly, then you can do it,
but then i wonder why you don't just do sports?

Also I just can't see someone suffering from depression being all that into strict upholding of rules and deadlines, etc. someone suffering from real depression has trouble motivating themselves enough to go to the bathroom to take a piss, it would be extremely difficult to get out of a real depression alone.

 

[Mjäll]

And please, read more carefully:

I didn't say it's impossible, i said that if there are no strict rules you will fail.

You need a supervisor or holder of the drug.

Hm?

what's your test group for your findings? you're saying people should use drugs to bring stuff to the surface. Great idea without supervision, wonder who thought of that. There's cases even with supervision where patients killed themselves after bringing something to the surface.

I think you are making your calculation from yourself and maybe a few friends, and that's just not how probability works.

A biased selection of drug users. Funny, coming from your totally biased 100% in favor of drugs basically no danger whatsoever taking shit to the surface that could mentally destroy you no prob whatevs self administering highly addictive substances grreat idea, you will certainly not get a drug problem from that. And yeah ofc they're biased, drugs fucked up their life, usually.

This post is half strawman.

OP asks if something is possible. The answer is yes. I'm not saying it's without dangers. Even listed dangers myself. Maybe you're the one who needs to read more carefully. Also write more carefully.

OP even claims to have had therapeutic benefits already.

 

[December Flower]

Hm?



This post is half strawman.

OP asks if something is possible. The answer is yes. I'm not saying it's without dangers. Even listed dangers myself. Maybe you're the one who needs to read more carefully. Also write more carefully.

OP even claims to have had therapeutic benefits already.

Well you didn't answer any of my questions, but I'll play along and answer yours again,
seems that's the way conversations with you tend to go.

You do need a holder of the drug that only gives it out the drug in specific intervals.
If that person is you, you're the 1 in a 1000 who won't cheat, then yes, you can
This is why I'm generally advising against self-medication, as you will be key motivator and supervisor, and wouldn't someone depressed cling to anything that made them feel better even if it's a short term solution? And wouldn't the same person have big issues managing the drug properly?

Is it truly therapeutic benefit risking an addiction? I'm sure if you suffer from depression, short term, heroin is a great solution, you'll instantly stop being depressed, but long term, you cannot trust yourself with it. The same is true for many drugs, and yes, Ketamine is quite addictive and can have very severe consequences to your body and psyche if abused.

I'm not saying OP shouldn't try to get better. But drugs can never be the end all be all solution to your problems. Use the drug to motivate yourself. Use the motivation to do sports, and eat healthier, doing more for yourself. Taper the drug ASAP. That's my advice if you want to go with this

 

[RUC4]

I'm not saying OP shouldn't try to get better. But drugs can never be the end all be all solution to your problems. Use the drug to motivate yourself. Use the motivation to do sports, and eat healthier, doing more for yourself. Taper the drug ASAP. That's my advice if you want to go with this

Exactly.

This is why I'm generally advising against self-medication, as you will be key motivator and supervisor

Yes. And as someone said, Ketamine (and therapy in general) can open doors to trauma and emotions that are too great to deal with alone - hence your brain protected you from them. You were completely unaware you had them. This can be VERY dangerous, as you wouldn’t have the tools to get past this alone.

And as someone else mentioned, suicide is a risk. I do not believe a person can treat themselves for anything psychological. The brain is way too clever to allow that.

 

[December Flower]

Exactly.

Yes. And as someone said, Ketamine (and therapy in general) can open doors to trauma and emotions that are too great to deal with alone - hence your brain protected you from them. You were completely unaware you had them. This can be VERY dangerous, as you wouldn’t have the tools to get past this alone.

And as someone else mentioned, suicide is a risk. I do not believe a person can treat themselves for anything psychological. The brain is way too clever to allow that.

It goes even deeper than that. There's such a thing as a created trauma, i'm not a 100% on the English term, Scheinerinnerung in German, trauma created by the structure of how your memory works, in combination with this technique, and other techniques trying to surface repressed memory.

So a trauma can surface that isn't even real. The chance isn't even that small.
These fake memories are usually very deceptive, and quite hard to properly determine.
What memory is real, what memory is not real?
I find this whole idea highly dangerous, and I wouldn't do it myself without supervision.

Even if there is no way to get a doctor @RT_4 ask a friend to help you,
someone you can trust to care enough about you

if you need to use the drug, use the motivation to start doing stuff that helps you long term
Ketamine is not a long term solution. Your diet, 10-15 minutes of exercise, go out into nature, smell a fucking flower, don't use a drug as a crutch. Once the crutch is gone, you're gonna fall, if you don't know how to use your leg anymore

 

[Mjäll]

Well you didn't answer any of my questions, but I'll play along and answer yours again,
seems that's the way conversations with you tend to go.

You do need a holder of the drug that only gives it out the drug in specific intervals.
If that person is you, you're the 1 in a 1000 who won't cheat, then yes, you can
This is why I'm generally advising against self-medication, as you will be key motivator and supervisor, and wouldn't someone depressed cling to anything that made them feel better even if it's a short term solution? And wouldn't the same person have big issues managing the drug properly?

Is it truly therapeutic benefit risking an addiction? I'm sure if you suffer from depression, short term, heroin is a great solution, you'll instantly stop being depressed, but long term, you cannot trust yourself with it. The same is true for many drugs, and yes, Ketamine is quite addictive and can have very severe consequences to your body and psyche if abused.

I'm not saying OP shouldn't try to get better. But drugs can never be the end all be all solution to your problems. Use the drug to motivate yourself. Use the motivation to do sports, and eat healthier, doing more for yourself. Taper the drug ASAP. That's my advice if you want to go with this

I'll answer your question, which i interpreted as rhetorical: Yes, my "test group" if anything is myself and friends, along with other anecdotal reports. On the other hand, i didn't claim to be doing scientific research myself. You do realize that right?

You may have noticed there is actual research on the direct antidepressant effects of ketamine. This is what we're really discusing. I didn't make this up. Do you have any research to suggest that medical supervision is necessary? Where do you get your "1 in 1000"? What's your test group? Do you think depressed people are impulsive maniacs? What is OP's question?

No, heroin is not a therapeutic drug like ketamine is. More of a temporary relief. Is this a serious comparison?

Why do you stoop to insulting me, claiming that i have a particular tendency to not answer people's questions, a blatant lie? Are you insecure about your arguments?

No-one has disagreed with you about "sports", dude. No-one has said abuse is therapeutic either.

 

[Mjäll]

Ketamine is not a long term solution. Your diet, 10-15 minutes of exercise, go out into nature, smell a fucking flower, don't use a drug as a crutch. Once the crutch is gone, you're gonna fall, if you don't know how to use your leg anymore

Where does anyone recommend or consider using it as a "crutch"?

Lol wtf

A "fucking flower"! Calm down.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I have so far used ketamine therapeutically succesfully with no issues whatsoever. I haven't though even tried to cover my mental issues with that consistently because I like getting high and I guess there would be too much tolerance growth and possibly strain on organs too, had I bag of stuff all the time. Even though I don't feel need to do it every day even if I had.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

Sorry I didnt have time to read all the posts. I would go for DMXE instead. Keep low doses, like 10mgs, once per week and build from there. Add green tea the days you take dissos to protect the bladder

And sure, you can heal yourself, you dont need a doctor. Most Dr today prescribe quite sheet drugs than more than healing, does the depression chronical in a lot of cases, so...

And dont listen to flowers that spend its time in pro drugs forums, while they are anti drugs, by the way... I mean, if you dont like jazz, why are you criticizing jazz bands in a jazz forum?

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

lots of input on this
i would say that if one takes as needed and keep recreation under control it may help.
but i sould suggest the lowest of doses... know nothing of ket other than what is posted at BL and there is a thread that the continual abuse illustrates the damage that can result.
i would also say that if usage control is an issue do not rely on ket long term. low dose. lowest of doses if you must.
why choose ket? availability or ...?

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

yes apparently there is not commonly need for k-hole or "severe intoxication", but I think the hard trip every now and then can deliver some therapeutic effect beyond just that simple neurochemical response. But it is probably best not to do it frequently.

And abuse brings additional issues always. Go too hard and anything is bad.

 

[December Flower]

Sorry I didnt have time to read all the posts. I would go for DMXE instead. Keep low doses, like 10mgs, once per week and build from there. Add green tea the days you take dissos to protect the bladder

And sure, you can heal yourself, you dont need a doctor. Most Dr today prescribe quite sheet drugs than more than healing, does the depression chronical in a lot of cases, so...

And dont listen to flowers that spend its time in pro drugs forums, while they are anti drugs, by the way... I mean, if you dont like jazz, why are you criticizing jazz bands in a jazz forum?

Wtf? This forum is supposed to be open to both researchers and drug aficionados. Im 10 years clean and im not letting someone tell me where i can go and what i can talk about.

I am anti drugs. Because they almost ruined my life. Because my friend killed himself at 14 bcuz of heroin. Because another friend killed himself at 30 bcuz of benzos and speedballs. Because my best friend is dependant on drugs for 15 years becuz of benzos and neuroleptica. Bcuz at work I have to fight psychotherapists that just wanna drug my patients to death or so it seems, because they entirely destroyed my circle of friends, because I do therapy with people every day that made mistakes with drugs, thinking they were in charge of the situation.

I work in medication free therapy, and we get amazing results. My reasons for being here are research and helping others. Who are you exactly to forbid me from doing that? You're telling someone who got cured of cancer to get the fuck out of the cancer forum. I just came here to help OP and im not giving a fuck about you drug cultists that dont want to hear what i say. Im not talking to you. Get it into your fucking heads that people are allowed to disagree with you

also this forum is Harm Reduction, not pro-drug.