Can Lsd make you crazy?

[Xorkoth]

How does Al-Lad compare to LSD in that department dude? Does Al-Lad have the same degree of effect on the dopaminergic system as LSD? Do we even know???

I don't know but I would guess the binding profile of it has been studied before... Then again maybe not, I don't think TIHKaL goes into that.

 

[Si Dread]

I shall see if I can find out, got me interested that has. Subjectively, what difference in effect would be produced by a psyche with a higher affinity to dopamiine compared to one that didn't..? Euphoria is more serotonin, right? Energy is adrenergic, right? Is a dopaminergic effect satisfaction?

 

[Xorkoth]

Dopamine is quite euphoric actually, euphoria I think is a complex thing. Dopamine is what your reward system is activated by so dopaminergic drugs tend to be more reinforcing. LSD may agonize dopamine receptors but it's hardly what I'd called a dopaminergic drug (cocaine and amphetamines are examples of strongly dopaminergic drugs, though amphetamine is serotonergic as well). It's rarely a simple story. There are drugs that strongly affect serotonin that are not euphoric at all or even dysphoric. And then there's MDMA which primarily affects serotonin which is extremely euphoric.

 

[perpetualdawn]

I suspect that our language for subjective effects doesn't correlate very perfectly with the specific receptor and neurotransmitter systems, but probably we can make some crude generalizations like that...

I always thought that both euphoria and satisfaction relate to dopamine, that serotonin is generally more to do raw sensory and thought processing.

 

[Si Dread]

Well, that's loads clearer

I have felt very dysphoric on the wrong dose of MDMA, or when I've taken it at the wrong surroundings, or when in the wrong frame of mind. So there really aren't any hard & fast rules.

Thanks anyway though lol

 

[shoo-bop]

There are at least 5 different types of dopamine receptors, and over a dozen different types of serotonin receptors. Each type of receptor has different functions and is distributed differently across the various brain structures and neuron types. So any statement that "serotonin does this and dopamine does that" always grossly oversimplifies things, as does any statement that "this drug affects serotonin, that drug affects dopamine". It depends whether the drug acts at specific receptors (and therefore only engages certain functions associated with the transmitter), or acts at the transporter (in which cases it will indirectly affect all of that transmitter's receptors to some extent) and also, of course, whether its a (partial or full) agonist, antagonist, or (partial or full) inverse agonist (if acting at receptors) or (if acting at transporters), a reuptake inhibitor, reverser, or reuptake enhancer.

My understanding is that LSD mainly acts at receptors (e.g. 5HT2a, D2), while cocaine and amphetamine act at transporters, and MDMA acts at a bit of both. Moreover, one's physiological, neurochemical, and pharmacological "set" when taking the drug will influence the availability of the relevant receptors and transporters for the drug to bind to or indirectly affect, so even the same dose of the sme drug can have different effects. So, yeah, as they say on facebook relationship statuses: "it's complicated".

That said, dopamine transmission in the ventral tegmental area/ventral striatum pathway is involved with reward and reinforcement. In other parts of the brain it may additionally contribute to pleasure and satisfaction, and in still other parts (like the prefrontal cortex) to psychosis - can't remember which specific receptors. "Satisfaction" and pleasure, though, involves other receptor types as well, including opioid and GABA. With serotonin, there are actually some receptor types involved in reducing anxiety (e.g. 5HT1a), and others involved in increased anxiety.

 

[Dresden]

Yes, LSD can make susceptible individuals go crazy. The first time I took it in 1995, I took four hits of family acid and developed a not leave the bed depression lasting 3 to 4 months which entailed dropping out of college followed by a euphoric manic state requiring hospitalization. Luckily, today I am no longer bipolar although I still take haldol.

 

[swilow]

I suspect that our language for subjective effects doesn't correlate very perfectly with the specific receptor and neurotransmitter systems, but probably we can make some crude generalizations like that...

See, I even find that I go rawer then that by describing various effects in myself as 'dopaminergic' (i.e. physical energy/desire to move, flowing, compulsive creativity, satisfaction in repetitive behaviour, verbosity, lack of humour) and 'serotonergic' (i.e. physically contradictory sedation/energy, powerful feelings of empathy and desire to know others, lateral/insightful thought process, silliness/childishness) when I have no real knowledge of what I'm talking about. I feel like dopamine promotes euthymia, serotonin promotes euphoria...

 

[Solipsis]

But, there is a serious difference between serotonergic agonism (can do lots of things, under good circumstances a lot of the 5-HT2A agonism of LSD leads to pleasant effects overgenerally speaking), serotonergic release - euphoria indeed, dopaminergic release - yep stimulation, activation, feeling of well-being, and dopaminergic agonism like on D2 which is held responsible for some rather disturbing effects, I believe.
What effects does LSD have that are called dopaminergic that NBOMe compounds don't have?

For the record, even if the LSD experience can be shown to be biphasic, I'm skeptical about trying to cut it up in serotonergic and dopaminergic..

On another note, occasionally LSD can induce a drug-induced psychosis which is fortunately temporary by definition. Triggers for that don't seem to be genetic markers and factors like that, but rather influences that promote rapid (deliriant) dissociation and anterograde amnesia, having the tripper lose him/herself far too quickly, too much and too fast without careful (self)guidance. Psychedelia is a brilliant insanity, but it's IMO healthy to not abandon adaptation to some form of a reality altogether.

 

[Jonneh]

^ Yeah, IMO chronic weed smoking is a bit underrated in terms of negative impacts on mental health. Lots of people are chronic and are absolutely fine, it just seems like it doesn't work out well for some people. A lot of chronic weed smokers get into fairly harmless delusional thoughts/schemes (goofy conspiracy theories etc), but some get into a bit destructive and outright paranoid delusional thought patterns.

While 'high by bong', I once suspected that my best friend had put something stronger in the drinks. This I classify as my first 'unacceptably' paranoid thought, and on that day I confirmed to myself that perhaps weed was no longer good for me, even only a couple of times a week.

 

[phuckingnutz]

While 'high by bong', I once suspected that my best friend had put something stronger in the drinks...

He did...

 

[pathosinvalid]

This is a very interesting topic. (mind my noob-ness in the forums, im definitely not nooby to this.) LSD is very interesting in general. What defines crazy. What defines insane. Many will say that while on acid, you are declared mentally insane. Of course, not permanently, but in the mind set. I find that to be incredibly false. Many people do not take an extreme amount. Or, a 'heroic' dose. Many tend to stick to 1 or 2. A comfort zone. More of a party setter drug. This is not me tho, I love stretching the boundaries of my mind, so i up my dose almost every time. From someone who's done a strip, I will say, mentally insane is a foolish word to describe it. My belief, is that people who go 'crazy', has to have previously had a mental illness of some sort to begin with, since its believed LSD can bring up dormant illness in the mind, though rare, it happens. Sometimes people do not come back. They come down, but not back. Have you ever had a dream where it means so much to you, that it alters what you do in life? Perhaps you ask that girl out. Or perhaps you take an extra step to be healthy, just because of your dream. I can relate LSD a lot to that. The reason why i keep saying LSD instead of acid, is simple. 'Acid' now a days is just a bunch of rat poison most of the times. But, it is possible they could be suffering from an illness they already had, that wasnt active until the drug opened their mine. I suffer from extreme HPPD. I shouldnt say suffer, its really opened my eyes. Its quite fascinating really.

 

[Xorkoth]

Acid is never rat poison, that wouldn't fit in an active dose on blotter. What is passed as LSD nowadays are the NBOMe substances which are psychedelics nearly as potent as LSD, but much more dangerous. Sometimes the DOX chemicals are still put on blotter as well but the NBOMes are cheaper and hence they're the usual suspects. It used to be, back in the day, that 5-MeO-AMT was passed off as acid. Pretty much anything that is active in micrograms to a few milligrams is passed off as LSD.

Rat poison has been found in batches of Ecstasy pills before, but not LSD. Nor has strychnine ever been found in LSD, that's a myth.

 

[tacodude]

exact thing i was gonna post

Happy to know I think along the lines of staff that I assume is pretty responsible

 

[Jonneh]

He did...

I knew it! And here I am self-doubting.

 

[Rio Fantastic]

Yes, LSD can make susceptible individuals go crazy. The first time I took it in 1995, I took four hits of family acid and developed a not leave the bed depression lasting 3 to 4 months which entailed dropping out of college followed by a euphoric manic state requiring hospitalization. Luckily, today I am no longer bipolar although I still take haldol.

No longer bipolar? As some who suffers with (or is gifted with, depending on if I'm manic or depressed at the time you ask me) bipolar disorder I think it's pretty arrogant and blaze to say that you are "no longer bipolar". This makes it sound like a temporary problem that can be overcome rather than a chronic, life-changing illness. The fact that you take haldol (which I thought was an awful, awful drug by the way, but then again I absolutely hated every single neuroleptic I was ever tried on) explains why you don't get manic, do you still ever suffer with depression? Or, far more likely, due to the haloperidol you probably don't have severe mood swings anymore but probably don't feel much of anything else either. If you truly believe you've been cured or outgrown bipolar or whatever, then why on earth would you take a toxic, horrible drug like haloperidol?

Anyway, back on topic, I'm bipolar also and my two LSD experiences confirmed that bipolar and LSD must be treated with extreme caution, and I think this would doubly apply to anyone with a genetic predisposition (i.e. family history of) towards schizophrenia. The first time I took acid was a horrible experience that bought out the sub-level dysthymia and kicked it into a full blown depression, the second LSD trip I took was an absolutely beautiful experience that lifted me into the most glorious and beautiful hypomania, indeed the most beautiful feeling I've ever had, and it lasted for months and months afterwards until neuroleptics were forced onto me. The third time I took a tab of acid after staying up for two days doing speed, crack, heroin, diazepam, smoking weed and drinking, so although it was a crazy experience it didn't trigger any kind of episode afterwards. So whereas I know for sure that LSD can bring out mental illnesses that may have been sub-clinical or subtle before, I think it's a huge stretch to say that it can actively cause a mental illness.

 

[Si Dread]

Rat poison has been found in batches of Ecstasy pills before, but not LSD. Nor has strychnine ever been found in LSD, that's a myth.

Although the media has reported this sort of thing, I'm not certain such has ever be proven. I found this from Oz, but not many other returns for "rat poison ecstasy" - http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...119116606?nk=f9a5c6922869d7bbe4a2c12ec57d0d2b

They also say on the above link that veterinary products (I presume Ketamine), crushed glass & heroin are also likely Ecstasy tablet contaminants. This makes it sound as if they are regurgitating the same old crap we've been hearing in the UK for years. The rat-poison story comes from some idiot who got nicked selling Warfarin tablets as Ecstasy in the 90's (can't find a link though), which in seriousness is pretty dangerous. Warfarin is a blood thinning medication for blood clot sufferers that was once used as a rodent poison. In overdose it causes you (& rats!) to bleed to death.

This, oddly a yank site on a British url, is typical of the scare-mongering rubbish produced to deter Ecstasy users. It trots out the same shite as the link above but it's out-dated by a decade or two - http://www.saynotodrugs.org.uk/ecstasy.pdf

This one claims Ecstasy is often laced with COCAINE. You find me a drugs manufacturer stupid enough to put cocaine in his Ecstasy tabs! - http://brown.edu/Student_Services/H...n/alcohol,_tobacco,_&_other_drugs/ecstasy.php

Honestly. I'd like to see somebody PROVE that rat poison, heroin, cocaine, crushed glass or whatever has been deliberately sold as Ecstasy in stamped tablets.

PMA/PMMA & many other drugs are, of course, passed off as Ecstasy, but claims that deliberate contamination of Ecstasy tablets with known poisons & toxins, expensive addictive drugs & other medicines is pretty far-fetched as far as I can tell. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it happens only in the minds of our fevered media.

I stand to be corrected, naturally!

 

[Xorkoth]

Okay I can believe that. The heroin in Ecstasy pills myth is SO widespread, I've known many people who either blamed any bad experience of it, or else said they prefer pills laced with heroin and have a source for them, etc. What dealer in their right mind would put a more expensive drug into a pill? It doesn't make sense. Now, amphetamine in Ecstasy? That happens and makes sense.

Of course my main point was that rat poison is never, and COULD never, be passed off as LSD.

 

[phuckingnutz]

Same people who tell the razorblades in apples stories...methinks.

 

[Erikmen]

Yes LSD will make you crazy. It´s a matter of time and quantity. It will de facto - no way out..