Kratom Can Kratom permanently stop working vs how can I get the magic back?

[Mycophile]

So I used to take Kratom relatively frequently and it was my favorite drug. At various times, my tolerance got very high, as high as 16 grams per dose, but that was like 5 years ago. About 4 years ago I got a doctor to prescribe me naltrexone in order to be able to control how often I drink and take Kratom because I liked the idea of a pill which could simply force me to be sober if I took it but then if I stopped taking it all drug and alcohol will work within 5 days. I don't know whether or not that's a factor, but I will say I'd been taking Naltrexone almost every day for over a year when I stopped back in 2021, and I did kratom many times during that period and got good highs, so that year and change on Naltrexone obviously didn't negatively effect my ability to feel the kratom so long as I got off it a few days.

However, starting about a year ago, I cannot seem to get almost any good effects from kratom, and of course that's when I stop taking my Naltrexone for over 5 days. That SHOULD be enough according to a doctor I talked to.

Right now I'm on a kratom extract and yet I can't even feel it. It could be bunk as I got it from a headshop, but I just don't know.

Earlier in the day I took 1.5 grams of a green strain and when it "kicked in" all I felt was that TINIEST mood elevation, so I took another 0.75 to equal 2.2 grams and then when that kicked in I started feeling crappy, a little tired and also kind of anxious and I knew I'd taken too much and didn't feel better till it wore off.

And I basically stop for MONTHS on end and only use kratom a few times a year, so I have no tolerance built up, but this just keeps fucking happening. Regardless of strain or dosage, I get little to no effect whatsoever. If I take a very light dose nothing much happens, and only just a little more gives me the feeling that I've overdosed.

Is it possible that taking Naltrexone could have PERMANENTLY changed my brain so that I can't get high on kratom anymore? I mean, that's not possible right? As long as it's out of the system, the right dose of the right strain should work right? Or is there any other chemical reason (aside from tolerance because I don't have a tolerance now) why Kratom could simply stop working for a person?

I did a search and saw that this has happened to some other people before, but I don't understand why or know if I can fix it. I also took Turmeric and Mucuna Pruriens and still got nothing.

IS THERE ANYWAY KRATOM CAN SIMPLY PERMANENTLY STOP WORKING? HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED TO ANYONE ELSE BEFORE AND IF SO, HOW CAN I GET IT TO START WORKING AGAIN?

There simply has to be SOME way to get it to work again, right?

 

[Mycophile]

I mean, even though I take Naltrexone, it can't PERMANENTLY change your response to opioids can it?

I've been off it a week and my doctor told me the wash out period is 5 days.

Does anyone know if it can build up in your system to the point where it could take longer than 5 days to get out of the system or if it can permanently change your response to opioids?

 

[MuertaMan]

Have you tried "hush platinum" shots? If you don't feel a full one of those its the naltrexone

 

[Mycophile]

Have you tried "hush platinum" shots? If you don't feel a full one of those its the naltrexone

No I haven't. I'd ask where to buy them, but I know there's no sourcing and I can look them up.

I guess I'll look up cumulative effects of Naltrexone. My hope is that it's just somehow not been long enough and that if I stop taking it for long enough kratom will work (and other opioids in case I get injured cause I've gotten injured before even though I don't use hard opioids...) and that it hasn't PERMANENTLY changed my brain's response to opioids. My doctor had never said that could happen, but I'd really like it if anyone with more knowledge could chime in on whether or not that's an actual possiblity.

 

[MuertaMan]

There are lots of hush kinds so make sure it says "platinum 170mg MIT" they are very good, without a big tolerance they are so good its hard to believe they arent banned.

 

[Mycophile]

I'll keep a look out for them.

I still would like any answers as to why Kratom no longer works for me. I've been off Naltrexone for a week and it's not supposed to stay in the system more than 5 days. I'd really like to know if it can permanently change the brain's response to opioids.

 

[negrogesic]

What was the dose of naltrexone you were taking? Normal sized? LDN? ULDN? Normal doses (ie, like those used in the treatment of alcoholism) will take a while to fully clear if you've been taking it for a while.

Naltrexone has pretty long lasting blocking ability, even orally. Even a single 50mg dose of naltrexone elicits around a 30% blockade of the mu-opioid receptor a full seven days after taking it. So with daily dosing this effect will likely be even more profound.

Duration of Occupancy of Opiate Receptors by Naltrexone

To determine the duration of blockade of mu-opiate receptors by naltrexone, we measured the binding of [11C]carfentanil in the brain of five normal volunteers with a positron radiation detection system before and 1, 48, 72, 120, and 168 hr after naltrexone administration. The half-time of...

jnm.snmjournals.org

Still, i bet there is more going on in this situation than just the naltrexone (i.e., other more subjective factors as to why the kratom feels different).

 

[somnilicious]

It's just semi permanent tolerance. After 25yrs of almost full on opiate addiction even if I wait several months I still rarely feel decent opioid effects.
Just like kindling causes, worse and worse withdrawal in shorter periods, so is tolerance.... Larger& larger in quicker and shorter periods of time.

 

[Mycophile]

I've been taking 50mg pills which are the normal doses.

I'll read your link and see if I can make sense of it, but years ago when first prescribed my doctor told me Naltrexone only lasts in the system for 5 days and it's been 7, and several other times I've taken about the same amount of time off my Naltrexone and Kratom still hasn't worked. However, (and yes, I know that Naltrexone doesn't FULLY block GABA drugs like it does opioids) I have found that only 2 days off of it is enough to feel both alcohol and Phenibut.

So, if there was more going on in this situaton than the Naltrexone than what do you think it could be?

I mean, do you think it's possible that using Naltrexone all this time could have PERMANENTLY altered my brain so that no matter how long I stop it no opioid will ever work for me again?

I really hope not. That doesn't seem logical or possible.

But I'll describe the situation a little more and maybe that will help because it's always the same: no matter what dose or strain of Kratom I take, I will generally start low around 1.5-2.0 grams. When it "kicks in" (or SHOULD be) if the dose is low enough, like today on 1.5, I think MAYBE I feel like the TINIEST bit of an uplifting mood..but not really, like, it's barely anything. So then I take a little more, like today another 0.70 so I was then on 2.2., and after that I feel shitty. I feel kind of tired, but also a bit anxious, not like HORRIBLE, but kinda crappy, kind of a very vague "uneasy" feeling that I can't really define, and that will last until the kratom wears off like about 4 hours.

Every time I do this, if I take more Kratom of any kind I just feel worse. I have tried potentiators like Black Seed Oil, Turmeric, Magnesium, etc, all of which had worked before, but they don't do shit now. Today I took Turmeric and Magnesium and nothing happened. Later I took Black Seed Oil and at first I thought I felt the kratom for a second, and then it just made me feel a little more tired and crappy.

So like, do you think opioids and kratom will never be able to work for me again no matter how long I get off Naltrexone for?? Have you ever heard of such a thing happening where it could permanently change the brain? Cause I haven't.

 

[Mycophile]

It's just semi permanent tolerance. After 25yrs of almost full on opiate addiction even if I wait several months I still rarely feel decent opioid effects.
Just like kindling causes, worse and worse withdrawal in shorter periods, so is tolerance.... Larger& larger in quicker and shorter periods of time.

Only it's not IMO really "tolerance" because even though my doses went up and down like many other users over the years, as I described, about 2 years ago when I'd only been on Naltrexone for a year and a half I stopped taking it and within 3-5 days as stated by my doctor regarding the washout period, Kratom was working again. I remember that very well. That was the summer of 2021 and I used kratom dozens of times over the course of about a month at doses no higher than 3 grams and got very good effects.

But then when I tried again a year ago: NOTHING. Same as last August: NOTHING. But alcohol and Phenibut will still work after a few days off the Naltrexone even though Naltrexone also blocks them.

Also, you see, I am NOT a serious opioid addict (no offense either, I'm just saying...). I've only used Oxys and Hydros for a couple months after 3 knee surgeries years ago and never bought them on the street, and I've never used (and never will use) heroin or anything stronger. The only opioid I have ever really consistently engaged in is Kratom.

So like, do you think that its possible that the Naltrexone could PERMANENTLY change my brain so that Kratom and opioids will never work again no matter how long I stay off it? That doesn't seem possible right?

 

[Conky]

The kratom market is completely unregulated

Sources can and will cut corners to save cash, including selling inferior products (for the same price obviously)

My old source's product started making me vomit after successfully using that source for a year in doses much higher than you.

Find a better source and increase the dose

 

[cosmic charlie]

Kratom just became worthless for me as time went by. Fifteen years ago when i started with it i would get pleasing effects, subtle euphoria and energy. But as time went by it got less and less, now i can eat huge amounts of powdered leaf and its barely psychoactive, if anything it will make me nauseous. Actually sent 3.5 kilos to a friend for free cuz i couldnt picture myself ever using it again and didnt want it to goto waste.

The OPMS Gold extract was good some years back and i got pretty high when id eat the 5 caps over the day. But even those stopped working for me after awhile.

 

[Mycophile]

Yeah, I hear you guys, but I'm not giving up. Like I said, I use Kratom maybe one month out of the year. It's a guilty pleasure that I like to have work when I want to.

It just doesn't make sense to me. I get how tolerance works and kindling etc, but I don't think I could have much tolerance with how long it's been, and when I take higher doses I just seem to feel worse and different strains haven't done much.

I just want to know that my brain hasn't somehow decided to stop reacting to opioids forever. I'm not even a heavy user, but there has to be a solution to this.

 

[Skorpio]

Could be changes in the brain from chronic agonist use, you probably have circuit level changes from chronic naltrexone use.

Also could be changes in relative levels of receptors expressed, as naltrexone upregulates kappa opioid receptors but not mu receptors as much.

Does the kratom cause any analgesic effect to you, or are all of the aspects of its high blocked?

 

[Mycophile]

Could be changes in the brain from chronic agonist use, you probably have circuit level changes from chronic naltrexone use.

Also could be changes in relative levels of receptors expressed, as naltrexone upregulates kappa opioid receptors but not mu receptors as much.

Does the kratom cause any analgesic effect to you, or are all of the aspects of its high blocked?

It's all blocked (or ineffective) as far as I can tell.

PLEASE don't tell me that you are saying this is permanent...

I've never heard that that was even possible and the doctor who first prescribed it never said it was. I mean, don't plenty of opioid users of different kinds take Naltrexone and then eventually stop and go back to their drug of choice and find it works?

What would "circuit level changes" even mean and what does "relative levels of receptors expressed" mean?

Some people here think that maybe my doses just aren't even high enough since I haven't gone over 2.5 grams with the exception of a half a gummy extract from a headshop which some people thought could be sketchy but it sure as hell tasted strong.

If anyone told me this even might POSSIBLY be permanent I never would have used Naltrexone. I just thought it was an on/off switch but perhaps I was naive. If this is actually having long term effects on me then I'm probably gonna stop taking the Naltrexone even despite the fact that it has helped in some ways.

Do you think if I stop Naltrexone for long enough that EVENTUALLY Kratom and other stronger opioids like Oxycodone will ever work for me again (I like kratom better, but Oxy in case of injury...)??

Have you ever heard of Naltrexone use PERMANENTLY changing the brain so opioids never worked again?

Any suggestions to get it to start working again?

 

[Keif' Richards]

Kratom's effects are primarily due to its alkaloids, namely Mitragynine and its analogs. Mitragynine seems to be an Opioid agonist. Perhaps there are other qualities of the plant that make it somehow more than just an Opioid, but for our purposes here, Kratom/Mitragynine is an Opioid.

Your terminology regarding "the magic" is such a common trope that I dare say every addict will at one point experience this feeling. It comes down to everything in moderation. Too much of anything spoils its value. I'd love a donut right now, but if I had to eat nothing but donuts every day, that "magic", that special meaning disappears. Donuts become disgusting even. This is pretty much my experience with Opioids.

I worked as an English teacher in Iraq, Turkey and Cambodia. During these trips, I was basically able to use as much Morphine/Heroin as I wanted with no consequences. I could afford it with money leftover. The Morphine was purer than I'd every experienced. I'd use 1g a day, then 2, then 3 and within a couple of months in Cambodia, I was injecting over 4g per day of this pure Morphine. There was no more magic. I just felt numb; physically and mentally. I was saturated.

There were no consequences. I was still making classes. It was a crazy moment of realization: "infinite Heroin is not the answer to everything". It was then that I decided to reduce my dose myself. I found that when I was using ~1.5g per day, I would still get the "magic". It was really that simple.

It's likely that the only way you'll recapture the magic is by reducing your dosage.

 

[Mycophile]

Kratom's effects are primarily due to its alkaloids, namely Mitragynine and its analogs. Mitragynine seems to be an Opioid agonist. Perhaps there are other qualities of the plant that make it somehow more than just an Opioid, but for our purposes here, Kratom/Mitragynine is an Opioid.

Your terminology regarding "the magic" is such a common trope that I dare say every addict will at one point experience this feeling. It comes down to everything in moderation. Too much of anything spoils its value. I'd love a donut right now, but if I had to eat nothing but donuts every day, that "magic", that special meaning disappears. Donuts become disgusting even. This is pretty much my experience with Opioids.

I worked as an English teacher in Iraq, Turkey and Cambodia. During these trips, I was basically able to use as much Morphine/Heroin as I wanted with no consequences. I could afford it with money leftover. The Morphine was purer than I'd every experienced. I'd use 1g a day, then 2, then 3 and within a couple of months in Cambodia, I was injecting over 4g per day of this pure Morphine. There was no more magic. I just felt numb; physically and mentally. I was saturated.

There were no consequences. I was still making classes. It was a crazy moment of realization: "infinite Heroin is not the answer to everything". It was then that I decided to reduce my dose myself. I found that when I was using ~1.5g per day, I would still get the "magic". It was really that simple.

It's likely that the only way you'll recapture the magic is by reducing your dosage.

I do truly appreciate your response, and I was totally aware of the cliche in my use of the word "magic."

However, I have never used any hard opioids/opiates really (I had 3 knee surgeries between 2008-2013 and used some Oxys and hydros that were prescribed to me (yes, enough to get high sometimes lol) but once they ran out that was it, never bought them on the street, so Kratom is really my only recreational opioid ever.

To tell you the truth bro, if you were to simply tell me: "listen this is how it goes, you built up kratom tolerance and kindling or whatever and now because of that it might never quite work the same" I could possibly learn to accept that.

But the thing is that I don't think that's what happened. I went up and down on kratom dosages for a few years and yes I went up to 16 grams a dose, but I'd get it back down again and like I said, I got on Naltrexone in early 2020 and used LOW doses of kratom (like 3 grams) with PERFECT effect after 1.5 years of dosing Naltrexone every day, simply by stopping my naltrexone for a week, and I still got high off Kratom most days of the month back in June of 2021. I actually write this shit down believe it or not LOL.

But why NOW....2 years later, does kratom not work for me even with ZERO opioid usage, and with a week off my naltrexone when my doctor told me that the wash-out period for naltrexone is 5 days?? It makes ZERO sense.

I just don't want to think that I have had some PERMANENT brain change due to what I THOUGHT was responsible Naltrexone use which will now mean that kratom and opioids will never work for me again.

Do you REALLY believe I have PERMANENTLY fucked up my brain's response to kratom and all opioids?? (P.S. I'll NEVER use heroin, but I bet it would fuck up me up right now LOL...)

 

[Keif' Richards]

I hear you.

Generally, these things are not permanent. We don't have a lot of data available regarding say, a chronic Heroin user who is sober for 10 years -> does the Kindling Effect still apply? My guess would honestly be no. I believe there is an amount of time in which it is possible to "reset" many of these things. However, in practice, it's not common for a user to quit for a decade only to return. It happens, sure, but it's such a statistical outlier we have no data.

I've always tended to see Kratom in a similar light to Codeine. This is a simplification I'm sure, but I believe the comparison is pretty apt. Codeine used to be much more available. There is a lot of data regarding Codeine dependence, as it was once so common.

I don't believe it is a "complete change of how your brain functions". That's just not usually how these things work. I believe your situation is likely a combination of factors including tolerance, dependence and the ever-encroaching phenomenon of Kindling. I think it is a combination of these factors that is leading you to this conclusion.

However, I feel that like anybody else, you can likely regain some of the positive effects of the Kratom. This is only going to come with lowering the dosage though. This doesn't have to be a painful withdrawal process either. Take it one day at a time, perhaps cut your dose by 5%-10% and see how it treats you. Within a few weeks of diligent work, you could be in a much better place than you are now.

I think the problem is simple in its solution. You're using different words to describe a feeling that I believe many of us have had. I'm not saying I know I'm right, but I do believe this reduction in dose could really help you out.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Not an expert on opiates, but a long break can reset your tolerance to most things. I'm assuming the Naltrexone would be similar.
However, that tolerance can come back quite quickly, even after a few years.

 

[Skorpio]

Reposting a response publically:

Now, what I said may not be correct at all, but assuming it is on the right track: really very few brain changes outside of death are irreversible. People have strokes and regain the ability to speak and people get off massive opioid habits and are able to feel normal sober again. It takes time.

I always think of taking a drug as slightly causing your brain to change to regain homeostasis. The longer you are on a drug the longer the brain has to change, and the more one needs time for it to revert.

Receptor expression changes will be more transient than circuit level changes, but circuit level changes arent permanent.

Also kratom is a weaker partial agonist, I would be surprised if strong opioids totally don't work for you. I am not suggesting you start using strong opioids for the mood lift, but I kind of have a bit of bias about opioids, I find it hard to stay off kratom for more than a few months at a time (and am not currently in an employment situation where I can afford daily use of extracts, which is my go-to).

I guess my advice would be to give it time, and don't simply assume you are fucked forever. It is hard to turn ones back on a drug that has become a part of life, but it is kind of part of the game, but it looks like you may have to do that for a bit. I would try and fill this time with a new hobby or something to keep your mind off the fact that your drug vacation isn't working currently.