Bupe Can a taper be performed painlessly

[Gordon]

Hi guys am new here. Been lurking around for a bit and thought I chime in.

I have to say I agree with Salina here. At the moment I am taking subutex at 0.8mg. I first started sub at 2008 and tapered off in 2010, but needless to say the WDs and these P.A.W.S were too much for me. I did a thorough wean too and jumped off from approximately 0.25 or even lower, this process took me almost a year having inducted at 8mg. I too did not feel much symptoms when I was weaning, just bit of mental uncomfort but it was doable, I thought I was doing well because I was weaning down slowly and all was going according to plan. 2 weeks later "BAM" WDs creep up on me, this lasted 1 month, then the devil P.A.W.S came on to me like a ton of bricks. I was still having P.A.W.S 4 months out until I made the decision to go back on subutex. I do not know what I will do this time around.

I do not think everybody who goes through WDs and P.A.W.S post their experience, I know sometimes I was too embarrassed to admit what I was going through and even a bit ashamed because I thought I did everything right.

I also did exercise during my time on sub and post-sub, though I could not do much when I tapered off sub because I always got sore and it did nothing to help me to sleep at all, if anything made me worse. Its virtually impossible to do any vigerious excercise when your in the midst of withdrawals. You will not be able to do any cardio or excercise properly if you are not sleeping well, not just that but you need to go past the acute withdrawals first before doing anything intense, its just too hard and am regular sports fanatic too and only in my 20s...

 

[Gordon]

I agree that sub detox is such a thing that it holds you back more ways then one, especially when you come off it, its also dangerous to do any cardio when your in withdrawals, I tried my best but at that moment in time exercise did nothing to make me feel better, it gave me half hour of endorphins rush but then it was back to square 1 again, I agree how on earth is anybody going to cope if they are going through insomnia from sub detox and working out? I tried all sorts of sleep aids to no avail. I could not even sleep for 11 days can you believe.

When the P.A.W.S crept up I still tried to work out but again it did not do much, I still felt P.A.W.S. I could not take it anymore so I went back on subutex. Am not saying that what I went through everybody else will but this was my experience. My worst symptoms were anxiety, depression and insomnia (WDs and P.A.W.S). Funny thing is I never had any depression or anxiety issues prior to sub. I even went on few anti-depressants and none of them worked. I agree again that depression and feelings of low mood related to post long acting opiates is way different to someone who is depressed without being on opiates. I tried any medication to help with restless legs and typical WD symptoms/P.A.W.S and none of them worked. This subutex is some next opiod honestly. It was the hardest thing I "ever" had to go through my life and am still only a young lad, just doesn't make sense.

When I was tapering the subutex I was also told oh if you taper slowly and jump off from crumbs it will be doable, oh if you excercise it will be good etc so I psyched myself up to be in this mode, and I again agree with Salina that at the end it gave me false hope, big disappointment because I genuinely believed after doing everything possible that I will make it and would not suffer much. I think had I had it in my mind that I will go through some tough WDs and P.A.W.S I may have prepared myself differently, or at least I would not be so dissopointed, it was a big come down man, I didnt fully expect to go through what I did but I did sadly for me. I thought perhaps something was wrong with me, got my testosterone checked and it was pretty bad, got on amino acid protocol but that did nothing...

 

[Gordon]

I know someone on another board who also said she had many leisions in her brain, she was also on sub for 2 years, I hope that is not the case for me either. I've read around other websites such as suboxone forum but I do not trust some of them, many are there to back up the sub and many do actually work for prescribing doctors, its a biased website in my opinion, there is also addictionsurvivors too who are also biased and funded by the medical profession, do not believe everything you read on those forums, many are still on sub when they say they arent. I tend to believe people who speak about struggling to get off sub because I have gone through it. I too did not want to believe all the horror stories but now I realize how they feel and what they went through.

I think had I gone cold turkey it would not make much of a different, the tapering didnt seem to cut down WDs or PAWS for that matter. Maybe I am different in the sense I am prone to WDs? but then again so are 9/10 who end up in the same situation as me and go through what I went through. Am actually a very fit healthy individual who works out daily and eats right and like I started I am still young so if I can go through terrible long lasting withdrawals and P.A.W.S then is it really surprising most other sub users go through the same thing?

All I fear now is the depression when I get off sub. I do not like being on subutex, it takes away your zest for life, you motivation and everything you was interested in, its more or less the exact same feelings when you come off sub if not worse. Am dreading going through months or even years of this worrying depression and P.A.W.S. I made a mistake of staying on sub for couple of years, but I did not know much about it.. I already have made my views clear to reckitt benckiser who are the producers of subutex and I definitely have made my feelings clear to my doctor, who doesn't seem to care or know anything about sub. They told me jumping off from 1mg you will have no WD? yeah right, I jumped off from tony crumbs after a really good taper yet still had long lasting WDs and P.A.W.S and I worked out much as possible and did everything what I was advised but to no avail. Perhaps if I waited another month I would be alright? but it was getting too much for me, I couldn't even leave the home because of having anxiety and being depressed. I would have assumed 4 months was more then adequate time to recover and get through P.A.W.S considering I wasn't on sub for more then 2 years and I did taper slowly and everything else. I do not even think I ever had more then 4 hours of sleep during those miserable 4 months.

I do wish people the best of luck in this, I thought it was important I give my experience and what I went through. I hope to continue to post and update my progression in getting off sub. I think taking sub for more then 3 months messed me up...Anybody who is thinking of getting on sub all I can advise is not to take it for too long or more then necessary, its not worth it, surely there are better alternatives. I wasn't even taking drugs for that long, only 1 1/2 years, I was on sub longer then my opiate of choice. I hate to imagine what long term users have to go through when they get off subutex. You have my sympathies. Some have gone far to say even methadone isnt so hard as subutex yet meth is also very hard to come off. Anyway truly wish you luck guys I really do.

 

[Bucklecroft Rudy]

Seems fairly clear that these are both one person for various reasons. The second character is far more even handed however. Sub PAWS can last a while yes, but remember that only the horror stories keep records and update diaries. Most of us who recover quickly leave the whole life behind and focus on being clean. It makes sense - the last thing a recovering addict needs is to be frequenting a drug forum and seeing posts about other people's addictions and attempts to potentiate etc.

We only ever hear the train wrecks. There are positive accounts however:

Hey all, thanks for chiming in on my detox diary. Again, I hope it can help someone who is thinking about quitting (when the time is right) and have anxiety about it like I did.

Soooo Camping with the family... Surprisingly fun, and the symptoms where pretty bearable for the most part. I did make one mistake, I got cocky and didn't take any sleep meds, no NyQuil or Trazadone (which I have only taken 2 times). But trying to sleep on a thin camp pad while going through w/d with NO sleep aids was a bad idea. I did get a few hours each night, but not restful or long.

For the most part I did get better each day since about day 6, today is day 11 and I would say I am about 90% symptom free. I have been pretty free of depression or cravings, as of today I feel mostly optimistic and giddy about the future for my life and my sobriety. I do get moments or waves of sadness or depression, but they soon pass and are never too bad.

I will ditto a few other peoples experience with the sneezing and with the feeling that you are hearing music for the first time, I am experiencing this too.

I wanted to answer ROMEO regarding my plan to stay opioid free. I am and have been pretty seriously involved with recovery in the form of AA, and have been involved since last July ( over 1 year ) part of my motivation to finally get off of Subs was to see what it was like to be completely chemical free. I am not saying that someone is not "sober" if on Subs, I think they helped me change my life, but I was still missing something and it turns out I found those things in AA.

All in all I would say I feel more aware and present now, its subtle but its there. I would also say that I feel pretty excited and optimistic for the future of my life.

I will continue to check in every couple of days to let everyone know whats going on. I hope everyone else out there going through this will have as easy of a time as i have.


This thread is in danger of becoming one of those which potential sub users happen across and baulk from the prospect. I respect that you toned it right down, however we have a responsibility to other addicts not to deter them from treatments which could save their life. Subs are in no way wore than methadone. Ive never heard anthing more absurd. Theyre both Long acting with protracted severe withdrawals. Meth is universally viewed as the worst opiate to wd from. It'd be good to create your own thread outlining your experiences. You'll get encouragement I assume and not false prophets of doom.

 

[Bucklecroft Rudy]

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=932

Great thread on the benefits of exercise post acute phase. Goood stuff

 

[Gordon]

This was my first post yesterday, I did however lurk about on occasions but never posted until yesterday. What people describe about suboxone or subutex symptoms is exactly what I went through. Everybody who takes sub and comes off it speaks similar when describing our side affects and WDs/P.A.W.S.

I too use to believe it wont happen to me, or if I do some cardio I'll be alright, or the horor stories are one sided and so forth, but its really no point in kidding ourselves that we won't go through any WDs or P.A.W.S.. I also never wanted to believe the horror stories and assumed just because I was young and healthy I would override any intense WDs and P.A.W.S, but it wasn't to be. Not was I not mentally prepared but I was in denial too, so I can relate to posts who go through what I went through and can also sympathies with people who want to believe they will get away with it. Put it into perspective if addicts have been on suboxone or subutex for a long time ( half a year & over) then 99% chance they will not get off Scott free no matter what they do.

I worked out hard enough, did some intense cardio and vigorous exercise but I remember it did not make much difference to my P.A.W.S and depression. First of all I concur that you cannot do much psychical activity within the first month as your in WDs, you will pull something and its very exhausting, its virtually impossible in sub acute WDs. I took every med in the book and NOTHING helped. I was only on sub for 2 years at the time compared to people who have been taking it for 3 years and over. I also did a so-called proper taper and took crumbs for about a month, I did not feel much symptoms when I was tapering, it was so slow that I felt ok the whole time, but because I was on it for 2 years and the half lives are sooooo long it eventually caught up. My WDs hit after 2 weeks when I stepped off from 0.125, basically a tiny miscule dose, low as I could go, it was temgesics tablets, cut those in half and even quarters, anyhows I think in my heart tapering did not make much of a difference, I could have gone cold turkey and still had those symptoms and the duration of them would have been the same.

 

[Gordon]

Some people on other boards talk about exercise and what helps because most of them are still taking suboxone and subutex, they are only pointing out what they will do, or they are trying to kid themselves into believing by doing whatever they will ride it out, its not that easy, take it from my experience. Of course things such as exercise is better then sitting on the couch all day but not enough to cut down sub WDs or P.A.W.S, or maybe for most people it does not make a difference. I am a regular sports person, very fit and healthy and younger then many people who are on sub, coupled with the fact I never had symptoms such as depression and insomnia and fatigue in my life, I still had these symptoms and for a looooong ass time.

I would never wish sub WDs and P.A.W.S on my worst enemy. I also read when some patients talk about how something is helping them they are quick to pull the trigger and believe they have gotten over the worst, when it all comes to hit and when reality comes tumbling down they either do not bother posting that side of their experience or just message somebody privately how they are staring to have bad days and never come back again, so do not always rely on every single individual on a forum, probably even me.. Only those who are honest from day 1 will talk about their issues in regards to subutex and suboxone.

I also noticed many people on some other suboxone or subutex forums have hidden agendas, they will do their utmost best in promoting sub and claim that so and so works in P.A.W.S and WDs just so to keep people on sub and make them more confident in coming off sub when infact its misinformation. Things like exercise do not always do much if your in sub WDs and P.A.W.S, yeah its better then nothing but dont rely solely on that or stories you read on the web, just do what you have to do and do what can help you, you won't know until you gone through it yourself. We can only go by our experiences and from what we read, I can only give my own experience in what I went through, and my stories are similar to 99% of people who go through sub WDs and sub P.A.W.S.


I haven't anybody who never had P.A.W.S or WDs when they step off from sub. People talk about slow tapering but I did that yet still had a very hard time, just like other many people too who took sub and did a slow taper. I think only time will heal us and its hard, very hard especially the depression side of things and P.A.W.S...Prevention is better then cure, all we can do is advise people the dangers of subutex, suboxone, buprenorphine and buprenex and the affects of it, and convince them not to stay it on for too long if take it at all.

p.s I may do a rapid detox but I've also heard horror stories about that, I am not sure I can handle going through 4 months or even longer of P.A.W.S again, but all I can do is tell myself after a year or so I will be fine again and have my zest and motivation in things back again. Time is probably the only cure for us sub users, not just sub users but opiates in general too when you come off them.

 

[marley01]

It has been my experience that tapering dosage on suboxone is easier than any other opiate by far. I started at 16mg per day. I only took that for about a week and then dropped down to 8mg per day. 3 days later and I went down to 4mg. 3 days later and I went down to 2mg and then 1mg 3 days after that.

Splitting the dose accurately after that is pretty difficult I did the best I could. Once I was down to aprox 0.5mg per day, I started working out pretty hard. That was when I discovered that exercise is the key to eliminating WD symptoms. The act of exercising forces your body to release endorphins and dopamine much like taking opiates. Then the muscle soreness the next day does the same thing and for me helped to take my mind off of any other symptoms.

Keys to maximum reduction of WD symptoms:
1- ACCEPT that there will be some level of discomfort.
2- Exercise (Push yourself past your breaking point)
3- Loperamide (mimics opiate effect in your stomach to prevent diarrhea)
4- Hydration (Being dehydrated can cause pain)
5- Choclate - 80% Cocoa (Its not good for you but a lot of the time it eliminate small amounts of WD symptoms that may be left.)
6- Alteril (Natural sleep aid available at Walmart. Lack of will lead to a weak mind and you will need a strong mind to accomplish this task)

I hope this helps someone.

 

[Bucklecroft Rudy]

It has been my experience that tapering dosage on suboxone is easier than any other opiate by far. I started at 16mg per day. I only took that for about a week and then dropped down to 8mg per day. 3 days later and I went down to 4mg. 3 days later and I went down to 2mg and then 1mg 3 days after that.

Splitting the dose accurately after that is pretty difficult I did the best I could. Once I was down to aprox 0.5mg per day, I started working out pretty hard. That was when I discovered that exercise is the key to eliminating WD symptoms. The act of exercising forces your body to release endorphins and dopamine much like taking opiates. Then the muscle soreness the next day does the same thing and for me helped to take my mind off of any other symptoms.

Keys to maximum reduction of WD symptoms:
1- ACCEPT that there will be some level of discomfort.
2- Exercise (Push yourself past your breaking point)
3- Loperamide (mimics opiate effect in your stomach to prevent diarrhea)
4- Hydration (Being dehydrated can cause pain)
5- Choclate - 80% Cocoa (Its not good for you but a lot of the time it eliminate small amounts of WD symptoms that may be left.)
6- Alteril (Natural sleep aid available at Walmart. Lack of will lead to a weak mind and you will need a strong mind to accomplish this task)

I hope this helps someone.

Great stuff! Cheers Marley. I agree with you 100%. How did you do in the aftermath/how long have you been clean. Im using a liquid taper. Here are the steps I followed:

1.Measuring cup
2.Oral syringe
3.Fill measuring cup with say 10mls water
4.Place 2mg bupe tablet in measuring cup and dissolve evenly to create a 0.2 mg per 1ml solution
5.Draw up solution into solution and push back in to mix thoroughly being careful to avoid residue on sides of beaker
6.Draw up dose thus: If you need to take 0.6mg you'll be consuming 3ml (amount needed divided by .2)

This is the most accurate way to consume doses. Weighing the powder is ineffective since you'll be measuring the binders and fillers. Breaking the tablets up also presents the issue of innacurate splits and unconciously overdosing (I used to do this subconsciously though there was no perceivable difference when I switched to the liquid)

 

[Chunk007]

Hi there. Sorry i only read the first page of comments. I think my exp would be helpful. I was on oc80s for several years. When got accepted in college tried to quit with pretty bad wd. They were prob a walk in the park in retrospect. Got the bright idea to get on methadone prog. Four years at 140mg. One month of take homes. Stockpiled that crap. When i graduated i decided to try to quit told my clinic to F off. Tapered pretty slowly. 140 to 70to 50to 40 30 20 15 10 8 6 4 2 every 5-7 days. All measured by myself though with dilution. I made it 7 days not a wink of sleep i saw no end in sight and couldnt take any more. I bought 20 8 mg suboxone for $100. Took 2mg. This cont for over a year. Began mental prep for quitting. Sick relapse rinse repeat. Skinniest ive ever been. I was prob on .5 mg then .25 mg then half then half. Self measured of course. I was finally on miniscule crumbs. So began my 9 days of hell with no sleep. Watched a lot of movies. You say exercise works well. I used super hot showers. 3-4 showers a day till the ot water ran out. Kept me feeling okay for up to an hr maybe. After 9days i took a chug of nyquil and got an hr or so of sleep. It was pretty doable from that point. That was four years ago. Since thenback to school taking my third cpa exam next week things are on the up and up. But a couple months ago one of my closest friends got a script for 30mg percs for his really bad gout. Ive been snort binging. Its just now starting to get to the point where ill have minor wd for 1-2 days. I know i need to stop. Tings are going great for me. I never really thought aout it until it became so easily accessible. Cuz he doesnt even charge me. What to do?!?! Im gonna just keep the wd at bay until after my exam next week then face the day or two of pain. Sorry im rambling.

So anyways. I dont think you can avoid the wd no matter the taper at least in my specific situation of long term high dosage use. I never tought it would take 9 days considering my taper. Once the sleep came back i was good. The sub wd wasnt not as severe as the md wd. Reading the positive outcomes on this forum really helped me power through cuz there was a real timeframe others exp and i could see the end of the tunnel so to speak. Hot showers and reading these posts helped enormously. Later i found that sex really helps too. Cant believe so many years were wasted. I need to stop this crap! Thx to everyone for their thoughts and support!

 

[rightlaws]

I've lurked around here for awhile, but haven't posted cause I was just being curious to see what people were up to in the dope world. However, after reading this thread, I'll offer my thoughts on using bup. I was on it for many years (8 years maybe) and stabilized at 2mg/day. I was fine and then just one day I decided it was time to get off it altogether.

It's been said before, but it's worth restating: 2mg of bup is a ton of dope!! Think of it this way (perhaps not a good analogy, but you'll get the point). Your doctor gives you either a perc or .2 mg of bup for your sore tooth. 2 mg of bup is ten times that dose and so is 10 perc's. Ten perc's a day is not a trivial dose to quit cold. The other issue with bup is its long half life, which is really the ugly part.

As I recall (it was a couple years ago), I managed to taper down to .1 or .2mg, and then I jumped off. Big mistake!!! Two things. One, that dose, which seems like not much, is significant. Two, and I think this was my biggest issue, I didn't stay long enough on the minimum dose to stabilize. The end result was a wd that lasted well over 30 days, i.e., depression, sleeplessness, etc., etc. (I've wd from H more times than I can count, never this long or this bad.) Afterwards, I made up my mind that I would never touch that stuff again--it was just too long coming off it. The only thing that made it even bearable was I had some 5mg percs (from an earlier dental procedure, but never took because I was on bup). These I would only take just before bedtime, otherwise I wasn't going to sleep. My wife knew nothing about this and having to toss and turn each night with her in bed would have been really unbearable.

Anyway, fwiw, if I had do it all over again, I would have done it differently. First, at each reduction in dosage, I would stay on that dose for at least 2 weeks. And secondly, I wouldn't jump off until I was well under the .1mg dosage.

But of course this is just my experience, and my tolerance for opiates is seemingly relatively low. When I was doing h over an extended period of time, I noticed my buds would always use considerably more than I did. Just an observation.

 

[Bucklecroft Rudy]

I'll respond to you guys once ive stabilised - I cant seem to focus at the moment :- /

The .5 reduction licked me sideways surfed the rim and clove me in two. Well thats an exaggeration but today has been pretty bad. .1 doses are barely effective. I dropped to.5 today and I only started to feel normal about an hour ago. I feel pretty good at the moment but how long that will last is anybody's guess.
Cycling is always my faithful standby. As always. Almost had a panic attack when my chain was torn from the gears. Was bent double in the middle of a forest wrestling with it haha. Ive no way of knowing how much its helping but what I do know is that while I cycle my symptoms recede 100%. Much of it is the extent of the distraction provided by cycling on roads with no knowledge of the highway code to speak of lol.
Im going on effexor on monday. Ive researched it extensively and feel that its a step down. I want off opiates for good and although effexor has some serious wd's a slow taper should render that redundant.

 

[mareseatoats]

Scream. Then hit the gym, and most importantly the sauna, as often as possible. Drink tons of gatorade. Scream again and see. It may do you good. ;-)

--ha thanks pod; I will remember this recommendation, when and if I ever make it down far enough to jump off
--

 

[Ektor]

Sorry if i didnt read the whole thread but i'd like anyway to add my 2 cents..

I HAVE TAPERED from subs, arriving at the 2mg point(which is the lowest dose clinics give you) then i asked the doctor to prescribe me temgesic 0,2mg tablets and used them to slowly taper from 2mg to 0,2mg(or 0,1 half a tab, i dont remember exactly) and stopped.
THE PROCESS WAS INDEED KINDA PAINLESS, just had not so good quality of sleep the first few days of abstinence but then that's it!
good luck to everyone who read this!!!!

 

[KillSurfCity]

i find it fucked up detox in hospitals taper u off suboxone in 3 days, same as benz0os, so unethical, takes time. ugh

yeah, that is straight up bullshit. i have detoxed myself from opiates before and it takes three things:
first (and most importantly), willpower. i have been successful in getting myself off of opiates by purchasing large amounts of hydrocodone and tapering my doseage down over the course of three weeks, starting with 30 mg twice daily (still had some withdrawals, of course, but nothing i couldn't brush off). i moved it down to 20 mg twice a day on the second week, and then 10 mg twice a day for the third week, after that, i still took one 10mg pill every morning for a fourth week to be on the safe side. still had withdrawals of course, after this, but they were mild.
secondly: money. it's expensive. simple as that
third: expect relapse. relapse is almost inevitable, but it is good to take a break from shit, now and then. you are going to find life VERY, VERY boring for a while, though.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

For any kind of drug detox/taper... the only way to make it as close to painless as possible is time. In order for it to be more comfortable you need to very slowly ween down over the course of weeks or months.. that way the change to your body is never that harsh. Unfortunately, no detox unit is going to keep you that long.. they want you in and out in a week at the most usually and that's just not enough time if you don't want to be in a lot of pain.

 

['medicine cabinet']

depends on what your definition of painlessly is... sure you can make it pretty damn easy but you will know you are going thru it. If the strips had been marketed i probably would have detoxed off with those since you can cut them down into tiny little lpieces, with pills its a little different. i would take the same dose 2 days in a row then go down a half, do this till you have tiny little bits of strips left and do it until they are totally gone. the reminaining bupe in your system should slowly work its way out. about the time you get down to the .5-1mg range id start taking something to help ease your self to sleep. benzos would be great to have (thats what i would go for) but you have to be careful bc you dont want to switch addictions.

one thing to def try and get a hold of is clonidine around the 1mg mark and take it at night. small amounts because you will wake up feeling woozy and not so great. id say avoid tylenol PM as the DPH can give you RLS, BUT do take tylenol or some other kind of otc painkiller. And if you can get it, soma isnt a bad muscle relaxer to have around. you want to mediacte yourself, but not get so over medicated you feel like shit. if you go to a dr they will probably have you taper off the bupe like 8 4 2 1 each day, give you clonidine and a bunch of a doxepin or seraquel, some bentyl for your GI and say good luck.

which brings me to another point if you get bad GI distress loperamide can be a lifesaver, and get the liquid kind it works faster. i know it sucks going to the store buying a bottle of anti diarrhea medicidine, but you gottta pay to play. good luck to you.

 

[Ektor]

I think what i said needs a little add, cause i dont want to make it sound effortless, as killsurf said:

third: expect relapse. relapse is almost inevitable, but it is good to take a break from shit, now and then. you are going to find life VERY, VERY boring for a while, though.

I happened to experience a rather painless detox that time, and i was lucky (and well organized for that stage) but i wanna say that a PAINLESS detox although somehow possible pose you at even greater risk of relapse, because you will be less scared of going through the detox process again, so BEWARE!!!!!!

I indeed DID RELAPSE so now i am again at the starting point, take my experience as an example as much as you can!

 

[Znegative]

So strange that I didn't keep up with this thread as this is the type of discussion which is right up my alley. Buprenorphine has got to be one of the most baffling opiates in existence, that's for sure.

I would like to say that I believe the large outcry of negative experiences with buprenorphine tapers and withdrawal are not really due to the fact that Bupe is actually 'more painful to withdraw from', but rather because the doctors/clinicians which dispense suboxone/Subutex will often tell patients information that is simply not true upon induction. Then, when people on Buprenorphine maintenance start to taper off and realize that 'hey, suboxone does cause withdrawals!' They feel betrayed by the drug, the medical community, and the end result is that they blow their withdrawal symptoms out of proportion due to the outrage they feel from being lied to. I also think that people who are struggling to quit suboxone tend to do too much research on the subject, they obsess over other people's negative experiences, and in turn are actually influenced themselves by these horror stories.

Back in 2006 or so, I was (inappropriately) put on suboxone after relapsing once on heroin while attending an outpatient treatment program. I was told that suboxone was not physically addictive and would not cause any withdrawal symptoms, and that it was, in general, a miracle. They put me on some outrageous dose above 16mg/day, and I stuck with that regiment for about 4 months or so. Somewhere close to five months in I decided to try and get high off of heroin (which didn't work), but due to my dirty piss test, I was sent to an inpatient program, where I was taken off of my 24-32mg sub habit over the course of THREE DAYS. I believe the 'taper' was: 8mg, 4mg, 2mg, 0.

I then remember going through two weeks of mild flue like symptoms, insomnia, anxiety, and a general sense that I was completely losing control of my mind and emotions (I would have to run into the bathroom because I would randomly burst into tears, or in some cases, inappropriate laughter). At the time, I was thoroughly confused as to what was going on because I was under the impression that suboxone was not physically addictive, and my prior experience with heroin withdrawals were very minor (had only been using-insufflating, for 8 months, on and off, never had a true habit back then), so I didn't make the connection between my physical/mental doscomfort, and the fact that I had just been taken off of a ludicrous dose of suboxone without a taper. However, after about fifteen days, I woke up and started to feel significantly better in every way possible. It was like a veil had been lifted and I could once again see with clarity-all the doom and gloom was gone. I was even starting to get excited about getting clean. Unfortunately I ended up getting a new roomate who was sneaking out during the day and copping heroin, and I ended up relapsing and learning to shoot up heroin, but given those circumstances, most opiate users would succumb to temptation if they had to deal with that...the point of my story though is that yeah, the withdrawal sucked, but it didnt last forever, nor was it worse than any withdrawal that I've gone through since (in fact, I'd prefer that experience over kicking heroin ANY DAY now).

Of course some people will say, 'well, you were only on Suboxone for four and a half months, that's why it wasn't so bad." Yes, this is true. However, I ALSO kicked 110mg of methadone (daily dosing for a year), cold turkey. Needless to say, that was a fucking miserable experience, but it was bearable, and after all the horror stories I heard surrounding methadone withdrawal, it seemed in comparison rather smooth. All in all the acute withdrawal lasted around 21 days from the methadone (at that high of a dose it took about 72 hours for withdrawals to hit me), and the PAWS lasted for about 4 months, varying the whole time in intensity.

I think a big part of what makes 'at-home' tapers with suboxone to be so difficult for many people (including myself), is that we ultimately have control over are dose, and for the most part know that if we wanted to, we could take more to feel better. I also think that detoxing from Bupe can be a double edged sword, because as you taper into those microgram dosages, you start to actually get euphoria and stimulation from your medication, which is nice on one hand in that its a reason to keep with the taper, but at the same time, its the wrong reason!

I've honestly always been a complete coward when it comes to withdrawals. I simply cannot bear even the thought of going through them, and I believe that it's this fear that intensifies my symptoms to such an 'unbearable' level. However, when I'm placed in a situation where I absolutely cannot cop or use opiates and have no other option but to face withdrawal and stick it out, the sickness seems to ease up a tiny bit, and I do eventually make peace with it. After all, there is a point during a kick where you've just been feeling shitty for so long that you almost get used to it.

I felt both hope and fear at times when reading through this thread. I'm no longer on suboxone, but instead on a moderate (50mg) dose of methadone. My plan is to start to decrease my methadone dosage down to 20-30mg, and then switch back on to suboxone, and do a 2-4 week taper with that. I don't know why, but I find suboxone to actually keep me out of withdrawal for longer, which is the main reason I plan to even bother switching maintenance drugs. I know from personal experience that the only way I'm going to be free of opiates, is if I taper down quickly on the suboxone, and just tough it out. I've been on subs before, and decreased my dose down to as low as .5mg/day, and from what I know, the withdrawals after a 36 hour period were just as bad as they were 36 hours after a 1mg dose. Tapering does lessen the severity, but I think that sometimes its better to deal with slightly more severe withdrawals and just get it over with, rather than to draw the process out and still end up in nearly the same place. However, each person responds differently, and this is all based on my own experiences with the drug.

 

[mrflowers00]

bupe withdrawal will happen even with a very slow taper but if you taper over months instead of days or even weeks depending on dose and the duration you've been on the bupe it will be much easier so if by painlessly you meen no withdrawal than no that cannot happen but i'm a pussy when it comes to withdrawal and i already am bipolar and deal with panic disorder so depression and anxiety are normal for me so my withdrawals are harder than others