Stimulants Caffeine, Safe but counter-productive stimulant?

[Neuroprotection]

I haven't had any yerba mate in a while - it's an acquired taste, I just remember its effect. I also don't do caffeine habitually - without tolerance, I find it too strong compared to other stimulants and not particularly pleasant (too anxiogenic - extremely so with amphetamines - and too many heart rhythm disturbances).

The only stimulant I've ever been prescribed is d-amp (elvanse/vyvanse). As an ADHD adult in the UK, my options are very limited.

Can you link the study?

Very sorry, I misunderstood the study because I read it so long ago. it basically states that in former cocaine users, sensitisation to certain subjective effects of caffeine May occur.

Subjective effects of oral caffeine in formerly cocaine-dependent humans - PubMed

Eleven formerly cocaine-dependent (FCD) adults (mean 4 years in recovery) and 11 with no substance dependence history (ND) drank one cup of coffee (caffeine content 0, 50, or 100 mg) per hour for 5 h (for a total of 0, 250, or 500 mg caffeine) in a double-blind, randomized crossover procedure...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Caffeine is a very pleasant stimulant at low to moderate levels. You go above a certain dose and it gets jittery, as has been said.
Being to how I love caffeine, I even enjoy those levels if I have physical work to do. However, I do keep to two cups a day (usually) to stay in the sweet spot.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Caffeine is a very pleasant stimulant at low to moderate levels. You go above a certain dose and it gets jittery, as has been said.
Being to how I love caffeine, I even enjoy those levels if I have physical work to do. However, I do keep to two cups a day (usually) to stay in the sweet spot.

Like you, I also enjoy caffeine at quite high doses that others would find unpleasant. however, that’s only if I’m allowed to move around and generally enjoying myself. If I have to sit down and do any sort of mental work, which I generally despise, too much caffeine makes me much more scatterbrained, agitated, anxious and distracted than I already am naturally.

 

[Frog Dreams]

@Neuroprotection

Yeah I used to smoke cigarettes. Coming up to 6 years since I had my last puff.

Caffeine is preferable to nicotine for me. I am not aware of anxiety or depression being caused by caffeine. I know heaps of people that consume it multiple times a day and have done so for decades and they are neither anxious or depressed. Like I said, I think it's pretty harmless.

Nicotine is super addictive. The addictiveness of nicotine is comparable to amphetamines. Much easier to quit amphetamines than nicotine. Bad withdrawals if you suddenly stop using nicotine, regardless of ROA.

It's also highly carcinogenic.

If I was you, I'd replace caffeine with something like dexamphetamine rather than nicotine... but that may not be a popular opinion around here.

Nobody should consciously make a decision to become a nicotine addict IMO.

Both of my brothers are addicted to nicotine. They have both tried for over a decade to quit and they have repeatedly failed. From my observations, it's almost as hard to kick (for some people) as opioids.

In Australia, nicotine products are also insanely expensive due to our overreaching government taxing the living hell out of the plant.

Cigarettes are more expensive here than anywhere in the world (outside of jail).

Price Rankings by Country of Cigarettes 20 Pack (Marlboro) (Markets)

www.numbeo.com

Coffee is cheap as fuck unless you're into Colombian Cafe Latte Mocha Cherry Tomato Grandiose Butt-fuckery like a lot of the pretentious weirdos I encounter these days.

 

[Neuroprotection]

@Neuroprotection

Yeah I used to smoke cigarettes. Coming up to 6 years since I had my last puff.

Caffeine is preferable to nicotine for me. I am not aware of anxiety or depression being caused by caffeine. I know heaps of people that consume it multiple times a day and have done so for decades and they are neither anxious or depressed. Like I said, I think it's pretty harmless.

Nicotine is super addictive. The addictiveness of nicotine is comparable to amphetamines. Much easier to quit amphetamines than nicotine. Bad withdrawals if you suddenly stop using nicotine, regardless of ROA.

It's also highly carcinogenic.

If I was you, I'd replace caffeine with something like dexamphetamine rather than nicotine... but that may not be a popular opinion around here.

Nobody should consciously make a decision to become a nicotine addict IMO.

Both of my brothers are addicted to nicotine. They have both tried for over a decade to quit and they have repeatedly failed. From my observations, it's almost as hard to kick (for some people) as opioids.

In Australia, nicotine products are also insanely expensive due to our overreaching government taxing the living hell out of the plant.

Cigarettes are more expensive here than anywhere in the world (outside of jail).

Price Rankings by Country of Cigarettes 20 Pack (Marlboro) (Markets)

www.numbeo.com

Coffee is cheap as fuck unless you're into Colombian Cafe Latte Mocha Cherry Tomato Grandiose Butt-fuckery like a lot of the pretentious weirdos I encounter these days.

Thank you for that very interesting and informative reply. I definitely agree with you, never heard of caffeine causing depression, though it can definitely enhance anxiety and worsen preexisting anxiety conditions. The reason I mention depression is because caffeine stopped working for me when I was really depressed, but then started working wonderfully for me after my depression resolved. however, it can slightly increase anxiety for me, but I’m not in a position to quit it yet due to my work routine and financial dependence on my family who would not approve of replacement drug use. i’m definitely interested in Low dose dextroamphetamine once I quit caffeine as I definitely feel I have severe ADHD type symptoms. in regards to nicotine, I thought the carcinogenicity was due to other tobacco compounds like nitrosamines. I definitely believe nicotine is more of a‘ Real drug‘ Than caffeine. i’ve tried nicotine through cigarettes, though that is not my preferred method. my favourite would be the tobacco free nicotine pouches, Some of which can contain about 12 mg of nicotine. The thing is, nicotine generally makes me quite relaxed and euphoric at the beginning, which then changes into some weird type of mental stimulation and optimism over time and with regular use. I once Heard that chewing tobacco products were given to Victorian factory workers because even with regular use, it put them in a state of elevated mood and stress resilience, whereby the horrible conditions just didn’t get to them. when I was on nicotine, I would just sit down and plough through my essays and was able to ignore most distractions. I felt somehow disconnected from the stress of mental work which I hate, I could still feel it, but it just didn’t affect me. I suspect this is self-medication, because of the dopamine released by nicotine. however, I do wonder if other mechanisms exist. at my brothers Warehouse Job, quite a few of the workers chew tobacco and have been doing so for years. interestingly, those using oral tobacco, which delivers much higher nicotine levels, take far fewer breaks than everyone else, work much harder and rarely complain about conditions. when using nicotine regularly, I remember being more confident and it was like everything was somehow brighter, I can’t describe the feeling that well, but it was like certain components of my mood, mainly the positive ones were enhanced while the negative -ones were suppressed/sidelined. One thing I definitely did notice on nicotine, was what I could only describe as a suppression of consciousness. please excuse my rubbish descriptions, but it was as if all deep thoughts, those ones which make you think “what am I doing with my life“ were completely suppressed. likewise, I cared much less what people said about me especially negative things, though nicotine did not affect my sense of empathy.
Another thing I should say about nicotine is that despite being a natural substance, it’s psychological effects, no matter the root of administration definitely feel unnatural. to sum up what I’ve said, for me, being on nicotine is like applying an emotional filter that selectively prevents negative emotions from interfering with my well-being or productivity without actually blocking or numbing those emotions. then imagine adding a magnifying glass which amplifies positive emotions and pushes them into my consciousness.
Please feel free to ask me if you want me to clarify anything, apologies for the poor nature of my descriptions.

 

[Neuroprotection]

One strange thing I noticed about caffeine is that it can have contradictory effects on more abstract elements like my sense of connection with nature and my imagination in general. for example, caffeine generally makes me less imaginative and more focused on what is going on around me right now. however, sometimes a few cups of very strong coffee before going on a walk in the woods with family can make me feel more connected both with them and with our surroundings.
On the other hand, during periods of my life, where I wasn’t using caffeine(Over seven years ago), I generally preferred to stay inside. however, I did notice a deeper imagination with deeper and more profound thoughts and ideas. as I mentioned previously, I was also much more of a night owl and without morning caffeine, I’m much more likely to stay awake at night. that’s not because The absence of caffeine inherently keeps me awake, but it’s because, without caffeine, I am much more likely to sleep in late and my energy levels peak at around evening time.

 

[Frog Dreams]

@Neuroprotection

1. Your description of nicotine varies wildly from my experience. Personally, I see little to no value in the drug. It is addiction for the sake of addiction. The effects of nicotine are mildly interesting at first but not as a stimulant... however, after some time, the body grows accustomed to the effects and tolerance develops and the drug becomes a self-fulfilling addiction.

2. Ideally (spiritually) you shouldn't seek out drugs - intoxicating or otherwise - to solve problems in life. I used to use dexamphetamine to increase productivity. It is an extremely effective stimulant and has relatively low abuse potential in comparison to other extremely effective stimulants like methamphetamine / cocaine. I have since stopped using dexamphetamine because it takes away something. There is no such thing as a free lunch. It numbs me. It removes joy. It makes me apathetic. I am quite capable of functioning without any stimulants, caffeine included... but (for me) caffeine is harmless and doesn't remove anything from my life.

3. Kava is potentially an alternative for you. I have only started consuming it this week but I find it to be a very interesting motivator. It is not a stimulant. It is a depressant. But, it is largely non-intoxicating like caffeine and nicotine and low doses of dexamphetamine. Kava calms me (a lot) while also motivating me. It is like a combination of the hypnotic / sedative (non intoxicating) parts of marijuana combined with the motivation of caffeine without the jitteriness.

4. Caffeine causes (for me) anxiety only in high doses. I often have half-strength coffee or only drink half a cup... Do you experience anxiety from low doses?

 

[Neuroprotection]

@Neuroprotection

1. Your description of nicotine varies wildly from my experience. Personally, I see little to no value in the drug. It is addiction for the sake of addiction. The effects of nicotine are mildly interesting at first but not as a stimulant... however, after some time, the body grows accustomed to the effects and tolerance develops and the drug becomes a self-fulfilling addiction.

2. Ideally (spiritually) you shouldn't seek out drugs - intoxicating or otherwise - to solve problems in life. I used to use dexamphetamine to increase productivity. It is an extremely effective stimulant and has relatively low abuse potential in comparison to other extremely effective stimulants like methamphetamine / cocaine. I have since stopped using dexamphetamine because it takes away something. There is no such thing as a free lunch. It numbs me. It removes joy. It makes me apathetic. I am quite capable of functioning without any stimulants, caffeine included... but (for me) caffeine is harmless and doesn't remove anything from my life.

3. Kava is potentially an alternative for you. I have only started consuming it this week but I find it to be a very interesting motivator. It is not a stimulant. It is a depressant. But, it is largely non-intoxicating like caffeine and nicotine and low doses of dexamphetamine. Kava calms me (a lot) while also motivating me. It is like a combination of the hypnotic / sedative (non intoxicating) parts of marijuana combined with the motivation of caffeine without the jitteriness.

4. Caffeine causes (for me) anxiety only in high doses. I often have half-strength coffee or only drink half a cup... Do you experience anxiety from low doses?

Thanks for your advice. what you said about drugs is very true but my current life circumstances are forcing me to consider using some chemical help. to be honest, despite my fascination with amphetamine type stimulants, if I didn’t have to work, I wouldn’t bother taking them, and I probably wouldn’t bother that much with nicotine either despite the fact that I love it so much. in regards to the extreme pleasant effects that nicotine, gives me, I may have been sensitised by childhood exposure as I always used to sit around heavily smoking adults and also messed around with nicotine patches and inhalers in my early teen years. For example, I would get an amazing rush from chewing, a 26 mg nicotine patch and I did this on about seven or eight different occasions. in my late teen years, I also chewed cigarette tobacco, finished entire vape pens in a few hours and sublingually administered huge amounts of E-lliquid. I guess this has contributed to my fondness for nicotine in adulthood, though when I used it in my adult years, I was content with low doses.

To answer your question about low-dose caffeine, no, it doesn’t cause me anxiety, but it also wouldn’t have the desired effect of giving me energy and waking me up either. your description of caffeine as a pretty harmless drug is very accurate in my opinion. I often use it recreationally, not because it gets me high, but because in high doses, it completely eliminates any tiredness allowing me to make the most of any free time I have pursuing my hobbies. although I’ve never tried amphetamines, I’ve heard that the come down from high doses is sometimes awful and protracted. at least in my experience, the nice thing about caffeine is that there is no comedown apart from getting an absolutely amazing, sleep once it has completely left the system.

 

[Neuroprotection]

just had an idea as to why caffeine May have temporarily stopped working for me during my episode of anhedonia. basically, severe chronic stress and the resulting anhedonia involve dramatically decreased dopamine release and synaptic dopamine levels in the brain. this is very important in terms of caffeine because caffeine induced dopamine release is insignificant, especially in the nucleus accumbens. instead, through blockade of adenosine receptors, particularly A2A, it increases the sensitivity and availability of dopamine receptors especially d2 and D3 receptors. this is especially the case in the striatum. in this way, caffeine makes the brain more sensitive to any given amount of available dopamine, meaning that an adequate amount of dopamine is likely needed to already be present in the synapses in order for caffeine to produce the full range of beneficial dopaminergic affects.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

When I was at the beginning of high school I got a box of guarana pills and ate them all at once, that's about the only time I really felt high from caffeine. To me it seems a bit that tolerance to caffeine develops in fashion somewhat similar to that to tobacco. But even I don't really feel much of a mental effects of coffee there are some benefits and usefulness in coffee and caffeine. And it seems it doesn't loose that much ability to potentate other drugs or create synergy of sort. Black coffee and cigarette with opiate is a classic.

 

[Neuroprotection]

When I was at the beginning of high school I got a box of guarana pills and ate them all at once, that's about the only time I really felt high from caffeine. To me it seems a bit that tolerance to caffeine develops in fashion somewhat similar to that to tobacco. But even I don't really feel much of a mental effects of coffee there are some benefits and usefulness in coffee and caffeine. And it seems it doesn't loose that much ability to potentate other drugs or create synergy of sort. Black coffee and cigarette with opiate is a classic.

Interesting. I’m sure caffeine potentiates so many drugs, it definitely enhances the stimulant effect of nicotine for me, but not in a way I always like. yes, it does intensify the Buzz and the immediate euphoria from nicotine, but then it turns into agitation or just disappears quickly. in contrast, taking nicotine when I’m not on caffeine, for example, during Ramadan, gives me much more Focus and a prolonged pleasant mood lift. without caffeine, I feel more sensitive to the effects of nicotine over time and it feels much more enjoyable/rewarding.

 

[Frog Dreams]

I’ve never tried amphetamines, I’ve heard that the come down from high doses is sometimes awful and protracted.

Withdrawal from amphetamines is nothing really. Benzos and opioids are super hard. Nicotine is hard. Amphetamines are easy. You can just sleep through the withdrawals even if you quit cold turkey injecting meth. Some people say the withdrawals are bad. They probably haven't experienced really bad withdrawals (benzos, opioids, etc).

Coming off small doses of dexamphetamine, you probably won't feel any withdrawals. But, then, some people are sensitive.

Methadone is a nightmare to quit cold turkey. Etizolam is even worse.

I don't generally recommend people start taking amphetamines because they can get out of hand but they are also EXTREMELY good at improving motivation and efficiency. They make you smarter. I wouldn't say that about almost any other drug.

If you're choosing between nicotine and dexamphetamine, go with the latter. That's my advice... but that's coming from someone who hates nicotine and sees little to no value in consuming it.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Short term amphetamine withdrawal is not only fairly easy, it's something speed freaks often do as a matter of course. Binging is very common, maybe even most common. You need to crash for a while sometimes to get a high. Now, the urges to use later on, long term, are another story.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Withdrawal from amphetamines is nothing really. Benzos and opioids are super hard. Nicotine is hard. Amphetamines are easy. You can just sleep through the withdrawals even if you quit cold turkey injecting meth. Some people say the withdrawals are bad. They probably haven't experienced really bad withdrawals (benzos, opioids, etc).

Coming off small doses of dexamphetamine, you probably won't feel any withdrawals. But, then, some people are sensitive.

Methadone is a nightmare to quit cold turkey. Etizolam is even worse.

I don't generally recommend people start taking amphetamines because they can get out of hand but they are also EXTREMELY good at improving motivation and efficiency. They make you smarter. I wouldn't say that about almost any other drug.

If you're choosing between nicotine and dexamphetamine, go with the latter. That's my advice... but that's coming from someone who hates nicotine and sees little to no value in consuming it.

Thank you for that. I’m pretty interested in trying dextroamphetamine and only plan on taking it orally at therapeutic doses. problem is, I live in the UK where I don’t believe amphetamine is available so I might have to go for methylphenidate. either way, I will definitely quit caffeine at least a few weeks before starting any of these stimulants. I know some people say it’s not much of a problem but I’ve seen many reports of individuals prescribed amphetamine for ADHD being advised by their doctors to withdraw from caffeine before starting medication. The reason cited was not the interactions between caffeine and amphetamine leading to worse physical side-effects. rather, caffeine can apparently ruin the focus enhancing effects of amphetamine, Changing the stimulation into a scatterbrained, anxious, lazy and more confused experience.

 

[Neuroprotection]

has anyone on here been a former heavy caffeine user Who has now quit completely? i’ve read many online anecdotes about this, most claiming miraculous results. Whilst some may be over-exaggerated, for the sake of writing an exciting article, I can actually relate to some of these effects. I think the most profound effects of being caffeine free are decreased anxiety/stress, increased focus, better appreciation of food (taste much better) and feeling more thoughtful and in touch with emotions. The only catch to all this is that I need to be in A less hectic environment and a routine that better suits my daily rhythm.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Short term amphetamine withdrawal is not only fairly easy, it's something speed freaks often do as a matter of course. Binging is very common, maybe even most common. You need to crash for a while sometimes to get a high. Now, the urges to use later on, long term, are another story.

Very interesting. Now you mention it, I understand why methamphetamine addicts seem to report doing quite well at the beginning of abstinence, but then struggle as time goes on. it seems to be that the urges get stronger just as their physical health improves. I wonder if a similar thing happens with cocaine addicts.

 

[CFC]

in the UK where I don’t believe amphetamine is available

Wrong way around. As an adult, you won't be offered methylphenidate, it's not on the menu I'm afraid, neither is adderall (combined salts).

You'll either be offered atomoxetine or elvanse (lisdexamphetamine - pure d-amp). If you go private, you can get d-amp IR pills, and then afterwards claim future prescriptions on the NHS, but the NHS won't prescribe you IR d-amp itself.

 

[Neuroprotection]

One thing I

Wrong way around. As an adult, you won't be offered methylphenidate, it's not on the menu I'm afraid, neither is adderall (combined salts).

You'll either be offered atomoxetine or elvanse (lisdexamphetamine - pure d-amp). If you go private, you can get d-amp IR pills, and then afterwards claim future prescriptions on the NHS, but the NHS won't prescribe you IR d-amp itself.

Thanks so much for clarifying that. do you know if Atomoxetine is any good? i’ve heard very good things about lisdexamphetamine, being smoother, longer lasting and less jittery which provides greater focus. although I was initially interested in amphetamines for the euphoric/recreational effects, I now feel it will be wiser to use them in small doses strictly for focus. i’m hoping this will serve me much better in the long term regarding my happiness by helping me do well at work. I then hope to make enough money to give me the time to pursue my hobbies and develop a stream of passive income. then I might not need amphetamines at all if I can stop working, can work less or make money from a hobby I like.

 

[CFC]

One thing I



Thanks so much for clarifying that. do you know if Atomoxetine is any good? i’ve heard very good things about lisdexamphetamine, being smoother, longer lasting and less jittery which provides greater focus. although I was initially interested in amphetamines for the euphoric/recreational effects, I now feel it will be wiser to use them in small doses strictly for focus. i’m hoping this will serve me much better in the long term regarding my happiness by helping me do well at work. I then hope to make enough money to give me the time to pursue my hobbies and develop a stream of passive income. then I might not need amphetamines at all if I can stop working, can work less or make money from a hobby I like.

I think most start out with the best of intentions. But inevitably, once you start taking amphetamine of any kind, there's often a very slippery slope and it doesn't take you to anywhere good.

Atomoxetine does work relatively well for some (though often in combination with another SSRI/NRI etc), and isn't addictive. Your NHS doc would usually try you on it first, before considering more addictive/hardcore options, but it really depends on how you present and how severe your symptoms appear. A private doc - well, they're seemingly not as well regulated and many would argue more interested in ££ and less interested in actually helping you find a long term solution. They usually just jump straight to amphetamines, and that's probably what patients coming to them expect.

My NHS doc didn't bother starting me on atomoxetine largely because I do present with very visible physical symptoms, restlessness, hyperactivity etc. I think I would like to try it (long term) though, even though I know it's inferior, just because the tendency to binge on stimulants is often overwhelmingly strong and not something you can easily forget or stop/control by yourself.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Just picked up on something which is relevant to both our reactions to caffeine and our approach to work/ability to focus. this factor is chronic stress/anxiety. apparently, caffeine acts as a chemical stressor through it’s release of cortisol and adrenaline secondary to adenosine receptor antagonism. in this respect, it’s no different to facing a serious threat real or perceived. for someone who is too relaxed, caffeine could provide the additional kick/sense of healthy arousal/worry they need to get moving. unfortunately, whilst I and many others are often lethargic especially when having to concentrate, we are also surrounded by Constant stress and studying/focusing is one of these major stresses. therefore, whilst caffeine wakes me up and that is very helpful, it likely tips my anxiety/stressed to the point of cognitive impairment and I’ve definitely felt this on many occasions.
I’m not sure if what people say is true regarding most humans having much more stress nowadays. Life in the past was brutal and incredibly stressful. maybe we have become a little less resilient to stress, but I think in reality, we’ve just become much more aware of the health impact of chronic stress. One of the biggest impacts of chronic stresses on mental health and especially cognitive performance. given that work is becoming increasingly mental or at least more people are doing office type work, The effects of chronic stress are more visible. I wonder if this is why cases of ADHD, depression and anxiety seem to have increased significantly. likewise, I wonder if this is why caffeine seems to have been associated with early advancements in European society such as the enlightenment period. perhaps caffeine helped people work harder/longer those days when work was simple or physical. however, given that more of us have to use our brain in more complex ways for work, on a daily basis, it may be that caffeine is doing more harm than good for many.