Stimulants Caffeine, Safe but counter-productive stimulant?

[Neuroprotection]

Yeah, I used to take Dexedrine and sometimes Adderall or Vyvanse, mostly for recreational effects, and I did always combine it with caffeine. Sometimes I enjoyed the experience and other times I got anxious and didn't. It's not a very smart thing to do, but I don't think you are risking death by taking moderate dose Dexedrine/Adderal with a little caffeine, but I don't plan on taking any amphetamines in the near future.

Doesn't caffeine also reduce GABA? What does it mean to "increase glutamate signalling"? And what do you think the interplay, chemically speaking, would be between the high doses of caffeine and Klonopin I used to take?

I mean NOW I am off caffeine (I hope it lasts) and have reduced my Klonopin and I feel better, but my old psychiatrist used to say that drinking all that caffeine counteracted the anxiety reducing effects of Klonopin. Of course he was correct, and had I never gotten into drinking so much coffee I probably never would have needed Klonopin. My guess is that Klonopin increases GABA and caffeine decreases it, so they are just counteracting eachother, but it was always necessary for me to feel awake on larger doses of Klonopin.

To be honest, most recreational or medical users of amphetamine also co-ingest caffeine, either through cutting agents or coffee. yes, of course in small amounts caffeine shouldn’t make amphetamine massively more dangerous, but it will likely modify its effects especially when it comes to cognitive performance. just out of interest, have you ever tried amphetamine without any caffeine? not suggesting you try amphetamine again recreationally, but if you ever do consider trying an amphetamine type stimulant at low doses, do it when you have no caffeine or related compounds in your system and you might have a much better experience.
In regards to caffeine interacting with Clonopin, it’s not a direct interaction because they work on different receptors, but the overall effect is still likely to be diminished effectiveness of Clonopin when caffeine is in your system. Clonopin is a benzodiazepine that enhances GABAA receptor signalling and just generally calms most areas of the brain including the anxiety centres like the amygdala but also important memory centres like the hippocampus and other brain regions needed for wakefulness/consciousness and emotions. this is because the GABA System branches out into every brain region and directly controls their activity by producing inhibitory signals. this is why benzodiazepines are good at treating anxiety, but also why they produce so many cognitive side-effects and motivational deficits.
On the other hand, the adenosine system, whilst still having huge influence across the brain, has more nuanced, complex and specific actions and is more concentrated in certain brain regions. adenosine via A1 receptors produces an antianxiety/antistress affect, but unlike GAVAA receptors, activating it can also produce an antidepressant affect. when no caffeine or xanthines are in your body, natural adenosine puts the brake on the anxiety centres of the brain, without negatively affecting memory or cognition. A buildup of adenosine is responsible for the natural, desired and sometimes pleasant groggy/lethargic feeling which makes you drop off to sleep after a long day of exhausting work.

In regards to decreasing GABA and increasing glutamate, these are some of the proposed mechanisms of modafinil. Note that if these things do occur, they would be very minor changes and only in certain brain regions. as I’ve mentioned previously, GABA is the main inhibitory neurotransmitter in the CNS. A small Brain region selective decrease in its activity can enhance neuronal excitability and functions related to that brain region. meanwhile, a brain region specific increase in glutamate(Main excitatory neurotransmitter of the brain) has pretty much the same effects.
Going back to caffeine, by blocking adenosine, it is able to make stimulant drugs or cognitive enhancers like modafinil excessively stimulating and tipps the balance of neuronal activity towards too much excitability which causes stress, anxiety, disturbed cognition/concentration etc. likewise, caffeine would probably have a stronger affect in the brain’s anxiety centres since they have a very high concentration of adenosine receptors or receive strong inputs from adenosine releasing neurons. this means that in the case of Clonopin, caffeine won’t directly block its affects, but it could definitely make it less efficient by removing one of the normal breaks on anxiety (adenosine).

 

[Mycophile]

Honestly I don't understand how anyone deals with a hangover WITH caffeine. If I'm already feeling ill then irritating my stomach even more with coffee is just going to make sure I throw up. What I drink for a hangover is plain water and plenty of it, and also some with electrolyte powder mixed in since alcohol dehydrates. Once I feel up to eating something I'll have a banana, some salt crackers and maybe kefir.

Well, I just feel I need some kind of stimulant to wake me up cause hangovers make me tired, but I generally feel best if I have something else to mix it with like kratom. And you can have tea instead of coffee which is less hard on the stomach. But I like that I found someone who doesn't use caffeine for hangovers as an example to prove that it's possible lol, so thanks.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

That’s probably because plant sources of caffeine other than coffee contain very high levels of vitamins and nutrients making them somewhat similar to popular Energy drinks.

Well those energy drink's Red Bull and the thousand imitator's ( excluding the natural ones ), kinda slipped through the maze. They are ime like pure Caffein and Black Coffee, not worthy and not very tasty.

 

[Mycophile]

So I got some Semax that arrived from Russia a few days ago. I've taken 3 drops in each nostril the past 3 days because that's what most of the sites online say, but I haven't felt anything. Should I be feeling more? I mean, this isn't a very well known peptide-substance so I was a little cautious about taking it, but now I wonder why it's reported to be at all effective in Russia.

 

[Neuroprotection]

So I got some Semax that arrived from Russia a few days ago. I've taken 3 drops in each nostril the past 3 days because that's what most of the sites online say, but I haven't felt anything. Should I be feeling more? I mean, this isn't a very well known peptide-substance so I was a little cautious about taking it, but now I wonder why it's reported to be at all effective in Russia.

I don’t think it’s by any means perceptively psychoactive so I doubt you will feel anything. if I remember correctly, it is from a class of immunomodulatory peptides, which is supposedly useful under certain conditions. However, I think evidence to support effectiveness is very poor for this drug. I read many complaints. about Russian pharmaceuticals being very weak/subtle and lacking clear mechanisms of action. A well known exception to this would be phenylpyracetam.

 

[Neuroprotection]

something very interesting happened yesterday when I unexpectedly ran out of coffee and ended up going without caffeine the entire day. mostly, I was surprised by The intensity of withdrawal symptoms and it was a reminder of why I had to wait for the right time and circumstances to quit effectively. The main symptoms I felt were as follows:
1 Constant pounding headache which is typical of caffeine withdrawal.
2 intense sleepiness. This was the most dramatic symptom and the one that really caught me off guard. I wouldn’t even call it fatigue, I would call it heavy sedation. I was struggling to keep my eyes open and if I sat down for more than a minute I would begin to drift off. I guess that was the work of supersensitive A1 adenosine receptors which to a very limited extent resemble GABAA or Mu opioid receptors in that they can produce sedation and cognitive slowing when strongly activated.
3 cognitive impairment was quite serious though I knew it wouldn’t last long if I carried on with caffeine abstinence. as with the sleepiness I mentioned above, this cognitive impairment was similar to what I would expect from small doses of depressant drugs, like benzodiazepines or alcohol. basically, my reaction times were very slow and I felt the need to think twice about everything.

In general, i’m glad I had this experience as it refreshed my memory of what to expect when quitting.
I believe many people Who wish to quit caffeine fail or put it off indefinitely because they just don’t have the time to deal with withdrawals and re-orientate their lives around New patterns of energy levels.
Personally, I feel that caffeine is much more physically rather than psychologically addictive, in that, I only use the substance to wake me up in the morning, yet I have no actual desire for the sensation of caffeine’s effects.
This is in stark contrast to nicotine, which I probably haven’t used long enough to give me physical withdrawal symptoms, but who’s psychoactive effects I have serious psychological cravings for.

 

[Neuroprotection]

just a quick update, in the past few weeks, I’ve had my daily caffeine intake cut in half, not intentionally but because it became impractical to carry a huge flask of fresh coffee around Plus I was urinating too frequently. Now I only have one pot instead of my usual two pots of coffee every morning.
I’ve noticed some amazing results. firstly, I get much less anxiety and my frequent caffeine related insomnia has gone away. furthermore, I didn’t get any withdrawal symptoms. Caffeine is still doing the job in waking me up every morning but is quite gentle and there are no longer any jitters.. of course, I’m still aiming to completely quit caffeine in future, especially before switching to a new substance. however, at least for now, i’m no longer suffering from my caffeine use but actually slightly benefiting from it.
What really surprised me is, how even a single cup of coffee (about 100 mg of caffeine), can have such a powerful effect in keeping withdrawals away but also sustaining the physical dependence indefinitely. I guess this is why even very light caffeine users report unexpectedly, strong withdrawals when they quit.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

One guy said he drank 30 cups of coffee a day for 40 years, which is pretty insane, so I don't know if maybe he did some permanent damage to himself. Several people have talked about "healing from the damage done by caffeine", but can caffeine really do long term damage to the brain?

30 cups a day might easily cause theophylline poisoning. Which is pretty bad.

 

[Neuroprotection]

30 cups a day might easily cause theophylline poisoning. Which is pretty bad.

Yes, that’s possible. However, in regards to people saying they’ve suffered permanent brain damage due to caffeine use, I suspect very high chronic stress levels and sleep deprivation along with nutritional deficiency are the likely culprit. Of course, caffeine can exacerbate and feed into all of these, creating a vicious cycle of unhealthy lifestyle choices which time is the body as a whole, not just the brain.
It should also be noted that in scientific studies, structural brain changes caused by caffeine reverse rapidly with abstinence.
The only one way I could imagine caffeine causing long-term brain fog is via its ability to chronically elevate cortisol levels and that certainly can’t be good for the brain. then again, it is easy to forget how remarkably plastic and resilient the brain actually is and how quickly/completely, it can recover from toxic insults given the right support.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I am someone who has been consuming caffeine since childhood/early adolescence, often daily and in very high doses. I don’t think this translates to humans, but at least in animals, adolescent caffeine consumption produces lasting sensitisation to methylphenidate in adulthood. The mechanism is thought to be up-regulation of the protein DARPP32 in striatal brain regions. DARPP32 is thought to strongly enhance dopamine D1 receptor signalling block, which can lead to a huge downstream cascade of signals which in tern enhance reward. I guess this means I am likely to really enjoy methylphenidate if this sensitisation phenomenon does occur in humans.

Here is the study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0197018609001223

 

[Neuroprotection]

Does anyone have an opinion on the suggestion that childhood/adolescent caffeine exposure alters brain development and responses to other drugs in adulthood. interestingly, some of my extended family prevent their children from consuming any caffeine until their early 20s, as they incorrectly believe it wil stop their growth. i’d love to do an experiment where myself With a long history, of childhood and very heavy daily adolescent caffeine use and the children of my extended family who had never used caffeine until they were adults, take the same dose of a traditional dopaminergic psychostimulant and compare our responses to it. I would love this experiment to be done more widely as well.
I’d love to hear your thoughts and personal experiences on this.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

I am someone who has been consuming caffeine since childhood/early adolescence, often daily and in very high doses. I don’t think this translates to humans, but at least in animals, adolescent caffeine consumption produces lasting sensitisation to methylphenidate in adulthood. The mechanism is thought to be up-regulation of the protein DARPP32 in striatal brain regions. DARPP32 is thought to strongly enhance dopamine D1 receptor signalling block, which can lead to a huge downstream cascade of signals which in tern enhance reward. I guess this means I am likely to really enjoy methylphenidate if this sensitisation phenomenon does occur in humans.

Here is the study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0197018609001223

That study is peer-reviewed and has many authors without an apparent conflict of interest. But it is just one study, doesn't have an advanced study design, didn't last long, is 15 years old, from a nebulous institution, and in rats. There can't be robust conclusions derived from it.

Does anyone have an opinion on the suggestion that childhood/adolescent caffeine exposure alters brain development and responses to other drugs in adulthood. interestingly, some of my extended family prevent their children from consuming any caffeine until their early 20s, as they incorrectly believe it wil stop their growth. i’d love to do an experiment where myself With a long history, of childhood and very heavy daily adolescent caffeine use and the children of my extended family who had never used caffeine until they were adults, take the same dose of a traditional dopaminergic psychostimulant and compare our responses to it. I would love this experiment to be done more widely as well.
I’d love to hear your thoughts and personal experiences on this.

Caffeine is definitely a drug, indirectly sympathomimetic. Stimulants are also sympathomimetics. They might synergize. But they can't really be equated. Caffeine has a ceiling to its effects, whereas with stimulants there isn't nearly so much of one. I've only come across one equivalency, and it was from a highly dubious source. Mostly different ballgames. But if you're drinking 10+ cups of coffee per day, that is significant, but it doesn't always mean a stimulant is warranted. Just my thoughts.

 

[Neuroprotection]

That study is peer-reviewed and has many authors without an apparent conflict of interest. But it is just one study, doesn't have an advanced study design, didn't last long, is 15 years old, from a nebulous institution, and in rats. There can't be robust conclusions derived from it.


Caffeine is definitely a drug, indirectly sympathomimetic. Stimulants are also sympathomimetics. They might synergize. But they can't really be equated. Caffeine has a ceiling to its effects, whereas with stimulants there isn't nearly so much of one. I've only come across one equivalency, and it was from a highly dubious source. Mostly different ballgames. But if you're drinking 10+ cups of coffee per day, that is significant, but it doesn't always mean a stimulant is warranted. Just my thoughts.

Oh yes, caffeine and traditional dopaminergic stimulants definitely synergise, what are you rightly, pointed out, on their own they are certainly wildly different according to the basic research I’ve done. in fact, many people say that the effects of traditional psychostimulants are not only stronger than those of caffeine, but also qualitatively different. that makes sense given their different mechanisms. additionally, the synergy between caffeine and dopaminergic stimulants is well understood. some people like it, but I’ve come across many who say even a small dose of caffeine can ruin the effects of drugs like methylphenidate or amphetamine. personally, I would never combine caffeine with a dopaminergic stimulant or even consume them in close proximity.
I’m more interested in knowing how prior caffeine exposure, particularly in adolescence can affect future experiences with psychostimulants in adulthood in the absence of caffeine.
According to one study, I read,(will post link if I find it), adolescent caffeine exposure in rats leads to slightly lower basal dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens But higher levels of phasic dopamine, release in adulthood. apparently, this has no impact on natural reward. and behaviours, but makes them more sensitive to the rewarding and activating effects of cocaine in adulthood. i’m aware of all the problems with rodent studies, but the mechanisms and implications for human seem interesting, nonetheless.
I think the only way to truly find out is to do a long-term study on humans with different levels of childhood/adolescent, caffeine exposure. i’ve never tried dopaminergic psychostimulants, but when I do, i’ll note down my responses. i’ll probably never truly know how my previous caffeine use will affect this response as it is not even well understood by current experts. additionally, I’ve intermittently used massive doses of nicotine in my adolescent years, suffer from chronic stress and severe sleep deprivation for most of my teen years as well as I am going for the whole day without eating, followed by massive binges on unhealthy sugary/fatty junk foods. all of these things are thought to produce sensitisation in the dopaminergic system, with unknown implications for human behaviour.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I really have no idea what’s been happening to me over the last year and 1/ half, but things have recently taken another strange turn. caffeine has suddenly started giving me incredible positive effects, perhaps being even more satisfying than it was before I began having problems with it over a year ago.

I honestly don’t know what changed things but perhaps very slightly decreased stress/anxiety levels might have contributed. I think my diet might have played a more significant role. since around August of 2023 i’ve been eating quite a lot of protein on a daily basis from things like chicken, tuna and red meat as well as a lot of salad, spring, onions, and spinach. none of this was intentional at first, just that a Uncle came to stay with us for a few months and he was a health, conscious chef. nevertheless, my mood, stress resilience and motivation steadily increased and my libido shot up. nevertheless, caffeine was still causing me a lot of anxiety issues whilst failing to give me useful energy until A few weeks ago. I theorise that my depression/anhedonia, fatigue and anxiety and the sudden onset of intolerance of caffeine that occurred last year, was partly the result of years of consistent junk food and minimal protein intake.

Whatever the reasons, caffeine is not only providing me with the positive energy that it used to, but I’m also getting the mood lift and optimism that it used to give me as well. as if it couldn’t get any better, my extreme sensitivity to the negative effects of caffeine which emerged spontaneously last year, has disappeared. caffeine now feels so clean and energising just as it used to before my anhedonic episode.
In regards to my productivity, reasonable doses of caffeine in the past few weeks, haven’t been exacerbating, my already severe procrastination, which is another really positive change. unfortunately, caffeine hasn’t been helping me concentrate longer on tasks, but I wasn’t really expecting that and has never done that for me anyway so I really can’t complain.

In regards to my plan to quit I still intend to do so once I introduce the more functional drug like nicotine, Adderall or selegiline. however, this would only be to prevent negative interactions.. just a few months back, the main reason would have been that I just wanted caffeine out of my life. I have now very slightly changed my view on caffeine since starting this thread. I still strongly believe caffeine should not be used with any other drugs, especially stimulants because of negative interactions on a neurochemical basis. I also still believe caffeine is not a great choice for productivity, But I now believe this is only specific to tasks requiring a lot of mental work and flexibility. A significant dose of caffeine can certainly throw one off a complex task, especially if you’re at the planning/organisation stage. however, especially with caffeine now working well for me again, I’ve noticed that if the tasks are very simple such as sending emails or filling in a basic form, a large dose of caffeine can actually decrease procrastination by making the task more fun and removing the tiredness which is the only barrier to such simple tasks.

 

[Neuroprotection]

forgot to mention, one more great thing that has come back for me with caffeine. it’s once again working brilliantly as a food replacement especially for breakfast since I don’t really like eating in the morning and doing so can make me feel sluggish. I think caffeine is actually an underrated fat loss drug. to be honest, I’ve not tried any other such diet drugs, but a good dose of caffeine can keep me going for a very long time, sometimes all day without food. it doesn’t really suppress my appetite but just gives me the energy/stamina to keep going as if I have recently consumed food. I hope I can continue to benefit from caffeine and I hope I never experience anhedonia again in my life. I also hope this thread and my experience can help anyone else Who may have suffered similar things to me.

 

[burn out]

I didn't read this whole thread so I have no idea where the discussion went. I just wanted to contribute my experience for what it's worth. I do not think caffeine is necessarily counter productive, you just need to find a pattern of use that works for you. These days I am working four days a week with three days off. I often drink tea on my work days and abstain on my days off. Taking three days off from caffeine per week keeps my tolerance from building up too high and it makes is it so I can access more energy through it on the days I work. Sometimes I take four days off a week. When I was drinking tea daily, it lost it's energizing effect after a while but as long as I keep it to just 3-4 days a week I find it doesn't lose its effect. I find it very beneficial in the sense that it makes the thought of having to work not so bad, because I know I can get a major boost from tea if I need it. Like I said when I was drinking tea daily this boost simply wasn't available.

It posed a problem when I was working 5 day weeks because because I'd feel too tired on my two days off with no tea, so if you work five days it might be harder for you to manage a schedule like this. I really find four days a week maximum to be the sweet spot. I also don't usually crave tea on my days off because I am not really dependent on it and actually appreciate the time off where I can rest. If I drink tea on my days off it makes it harder for me to take a nap I get restless. I will sometimes drink on my days off if I have a lot I need to get done, otherwise I make a point of resting so I can reserve energy.

 

[Neuroprotection]

just been completely off caffeine for two days as I did a voluntary religious fast. I had mild headaches but the most dramatic symptom was constant sleepiness/drowsiness as well as a fuzzy mind. just drinking my coffee now and really enjoying it. thanks to God, giving me back the ability to enjoy caffeine again, I can hopefully look forward to clarity, energy and a good optimistic mood as the caffeine kicks in.

 

[Neuroprotection]

thank God, it’s definitely kicked in. over the past two days without caffeine and this morning, I was sleepy, not very optimistic and really didn’t want to move much. well, that suddenly changed about half an hour after drinking a pot of strong black coffee.
Aside from the episode of anhedonia which temporarily ruined caffeine for me I learned a few lessons which might apply to anyone else suddenly struggling with caffeine.
1- said this before, so want to avoid repeating myself too much, but make sure you’re taking adequate nutrition, including all the B vitamins as well as essential amino acids from protein. this insures adequate dopamine synthesis which is needed for caffeine to work properly.
2- whilst caffeine might help when sleep deprived, for me, the best results come when using it following a good nights sleep. this might sound counterintuitive, but in my experience, taking caffeine when sleep deprived increases negative symptoms like anxiety, agitation unimpaired cognition with little to no positive effects. in contrast, after a good night sleep, caffeine removes all drowsiness/fatigue, lifts my mood and creates a sense of optimism.
3- try to consider the reasons you are dependent on caffeine and whether you really need to give up. for many, it was a habit they picked up inadvertently and it could be depleting them of energy in the long-term. However, I think this problem could have more to do with nutritional depletion rather than the direct effects of caffeine on the brain. I know people generally negatively view substance dependency, but it could be that a mild drug like caffeine is actually helping you to wake up much quicker which is especially useful when you need to fit society’s morning orientated schedule.

 

[Robert.Korozsi]

I am fine with the novel and potent CNS stimulants. Mph, amph, meth dextroa….

When it comes to caffeine.

On box of a monster or two coffees.
Instant panic attack

I mean it I have to take sedatives to get down from it

Anyone who has similar response?

 

[endlessnameless]

I am fine with the novel and potent CNS stimulants. Mph, amph, meth dextroa….

When it comes to caffeine.

On box of a monster or two coffees.
Instant panic attack

I mean it I have to take sedatives to get down from it

Anyone who has similar response?

By brother lives off cans of monster and pre-workout yet he wont touch tea or coffee... don't know how he does it. Doing it this long he's built up an immunity because he'll down 2 cans of blue/white Monster in any one sitting yet I've never known him to have panic attacks or seem particularly revved up.