Buddhism and observable truths

[Vader]

Meditation could just as easily be called a way to distort your perceptions and cloud your mind. There is no objectivity in your argument, it's just boo drugs yay meditation. Some drugs are poisonous, some are addictive, but this isn't true of the psychedelics generally. The psychedelics do not damage the body. And none of this comes close to being a reason why the insights of meditation are reliable while those of drugs are illusory.
I agree that there is a reason that globally most drugs are illegal. It is called the United States of America.

 

[stonerfromohio]

Some info on reincarnation in science:

Thomas Huxley, the famous English biologist, thought that reincarnation was a plausible idea and discussed it in his book Evolution and Ethics and other Essays. The most detailed collections of personal reports in favor of reincarnation have been published by Professor Ian Stevenson, from the University of Virginia, in books such as Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation and "Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects Volume 1: Birthmarks" and "Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects Volume 2: Birth Defects and Other Anomalies".

Stevenson spent over 40 years devoted to the study of children who have apparently spoken about a past life. In each case, Professor Stevenson methodically documented the child's statements. Then he identified the deceased person the child allegedly identified with, and verified the facts of the deceased person's life that matched the child's memory. He also matched birthmarks and birth defects to wounds and scars on the deceased, verified by medical records such as autopsy photographs.[47][48]

A boy in Beirut spoke of being a 25-year-old mechanic, thrown to his death from a speeding car on a beach road. According to multiple witnesses, the boy provided the name of the driver, the exact location of the crash, the names of the mechanic's sisters and parents and cousins, and the people he went hunting with – all of which turned out to match the life of a man who had died several years before the boy was born, and who had no apparent connection to the boy's family.[49]

Stevenson believed that his strict methods ruled out all possible "normal" explanations for the child’s memories. However, it should be noted that a significant majority of Professor Stevenson's reported cases of reincarnation originate in Eastern societies, where dominant religions often permit the concept of reincarnation. Following this type of criticism, Stevenson published a book on European cases suggestive of reincarnation.[50]

There are many people who have investigated reincarnation and come to the conclusion that it is a legitimate phenomenon, such as Peter Ramster, Dr. Brian Weiss, Dr. Walter Semkiw, and others. Professor Stevenson, in contrast, published dozens of papers in peer-reviewed journals.[51]

Some skeptics, such as Paul Edwards, have analyzed many of these accounts, and called them anecdotal.[48] Philosophers like Robert Almeder, having analyzed the criticisms of Edwards and others, suggest that the gist of these arguments can be summarized as "we all know it can't possibly be real, so therefore it isn't real" - an argument from personal incredulity.[52]

The most obvious objection to reincarnation is that there is no evidence of a physical process by which a personality could survive death and travel to another body, and researchers such as Professor Stevenson recognize this limitation.[49]

Another objection is that most people do not remember previous lives. Possible counter-arguments are that not all people reincarnate, or that most people do not have memorable deaths. The vast majority of cases investigated at the University of Virginia involved people who had met some sort of violent or untimely death.[53]

Some skeptics explain that claims of evidence for reincarnation originate from selective thinking and the psychological phenomena of false memories that often result from one's own belief system and basic fears, and thus cannot be counted as empirical evidence. But other skeptics, such as Dr Carl Sagan, see the need for more reincarnation research.[54]

 

[stonerfromohio]

Meditation could just as easily be called a way to distort your perceptions and cloud your mind. There is no objectivity in your argument, it's just boo drugs yay meditation. Some drugs are poisonous, some are addictive, but this isn't true of the psychedelics generally. The psychedelics do not damage the body. And none of this comes close to being a reason why the insights of meditation are reliable while those of drugs are illusory.
I agree that there is a reason that globally most drugs are illegal. It is called the United States of America.

Meditation is not intoxicating your mind in any way. What do you mean there is no objectivity I discussed what drugs do vs. what meditation does what do you disagree with specifically? Psychedelics do cause harm either psychologically or physically I believe both. I am not saying the war on drugs is working or that is the way to approach it, drugs are illegal because they are harmful to individuals and society, they cause people to be unmotivated, they can cause psychosis and the majority of people in jail committed their crimes on intoxicants. I will post a follow up post showing brain scans of long term drug users vs meditators you will see the destruction drugs caused in their brains and the profound positive changers in the meditators brains.

Brain scans of Marijuana smokers, Heroin and Methadone users, Alcohol users and Cocaine and Meth users:
http://www.amenclinics.com/brain-sc...spect-atlas/images-of-alcohol-and-drug-abuse/

Meditation increases gray matter:
http://www.physorg.com/news161355537.html

Meditation increases brain size:
http://www.physorg.com/news10312.html

Ken Wilber hooked up to an EGG showing his brain activity going to 0 while meditating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4

(This proves that they are not perceiving illusions how could they be when there is no brain activity to produce them?)

The health benefits of meditation—lowering blood pressure, improving immune function, decreasing stress—are well recognized, but can meditative practice actually change the brain? Growing evidence from neuroscience suggests that it can, providing increasing support for the idea that meditation alters both the function and structure of the brain.

“Science is beginning to take this seriously,” said Richard Davidson, a neuroscientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, who has been at the forefront of research on the brain effects of meditation. Although he cautioned that the results so far are very preliminary and should not be oversold, he is encouraged by the overwhelmingly positive response from neuroscientists to the idea of applying rigorous scientific methods to the study of meditation.

At Harvard Medical School, Sara Lazar took magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans of 20 subjects who were students of “insight meditation,” which focuses on breath awareness and bodily sensations, and compared them with brain scans from 15 people with no meditation or yoga experience. Her team found that specific cortical regions of the brain were significantly thicker in people who meditated than in those who did not.

Cortical thickening was correlated with experience: the longer a subject had been practicing meditation, the thicker the cortex was. Differences in the prefrontal cortex, an area that typically gets thinner as we age, were most pronounced in older subjects, leading Lazar to conjecture that meditation may circumvent this age-related effect. The study scanned subjects only once, but Lazar is in the process of following up with additional scans that will track brain changes at various times following the start of meditation practice.

Meanwhile, the latest research from Davidson’s group suggests that long-term meditation practice leads to higher levels of specific brain waves, called “gamma-band rhythms,” that are associated with higher mental activities such as attention, learning, and conscious perception. His team compared nine people who had practiced more than 10,000 hours of Buddhist meditation, which focuses on generating kindness and compassion toward all beings, to people of the same ages who had no meditation experience. Gamma waves increased sharply among the long-term meditators during their practice, and remained higher after meditation.

“This suggests that long-term meditation practice changes the baseline state of the brain,” Davidson said.

Fluctuations in the brain wave pat-terns of meditators also correlated moment-by-moment to the “intensity of clarity” that the practitioners reported during meditation, suggesting a direct effect on attentional processes. These data are consistent with other emerging evidence suggesting that meditation increases attention skills and the capacity to control and stabilize mental processes.

 

[daysonatrain]

"There is a reason that globally most drugs are illegal, there is a reason that in every religion meditation has been praised as the way to liberation."

cmon now really? the use of natural psychedlics is as old if not older than the use of meditation. while i agree that psychs only give a glimpse then can (repeat CAN) be a closer glimpse than some people will ever achieve with a lifetime of meditation. its foolish to discount anything as helping you on the path to liberation. my heroin addiction, and getting clean, was one of the most meaningful and spiritual experiences of my life. you will probably call bullshit, but putting all your focus on the teachings of buddhism is just as foolish.

i dont disagree with almost all of what you say, but dont confuse the teaching for the truth.

edit, i also think its foolish to confuse the sacramental use of psychedelics with any other drug.

 

[stonerfromohio]

"There is a reason that globally most drugs are illegal, there is a reason that in every religion meditation has been praised as the way to liberation."

cmon now really? the use of natural psychedlics is as old if not older than the use of meditation. while i agree that psychs only give a glimpse then can (repeat CAN) be a closer glimpse than some people will ever achieve with a lifetime of meditation. its foolish to discount anything as helping you on the path to liberation. my heroin addiction, and getting clean, was one of the most meaningful and spiritual experiences of my life. you will probably call bullshit, but putting all your focus on the teachings of buddhism is just as foolish.

i dont disagree with almost all of what you say, but dont confuse the teaching for the truth.

edit, i also think its foolish to confuse the sacramental use of psychedelics with any other drug.

When you get the message hang up the phone. -Alan Watts

I think that is awesome you got clean from heroin I agree that is a spiritual experience. I got clean from years of marijuana, cigarette, alcohol, and psychedelic use as well as occasional use of other drugs and it was a very rewarding and challenging experience. I know that many cultures use psychedelics as a religious sacrament such as ayauscha and in that cultural context with experienced shamans that's one thing or even doing it your self a few times to have the experience is fine but when it becomes your only way to connect to your true nature that is a problem. Meditation should be your portal to yourself, or prayer, or yoga, or mantra something besides inducing experience with intoxicants.

Though your mind is focused, some activities inside your brain go unchecked. In EEG (electroencephalograph) studies, brainwaves of different frequencies are measured, and many found an increase in these following brainwaves:

* Alpha Waves: Healthy alpha wave production supports mental resourcefulness, better mental coordination, and improves the general sense of relaxation and weariness. Many believe alpha waves are the bridges between consciousness and unconsciousness. Meditation synchronizes alpha activity between the four regions of the brain: left, right, anterior, and posterior, which positively correlates with creativity.

* Theta Waves: Theta waves come in strong bursts in long-term meditators who report a peaceful, drifting, and pleasant experience at the time. These waves enhance creativity, intuition, and daydreaming. It is also a storage area for memories, emotions, and sensations. Theta waves are strong during any sort of spiritual focus and they reflect the state between wakefulness and sleep.

* Beta Waves: When the EEG shows bursts of Beta waves, experienced meditators report an approach of yogic ecstasy or a state of intense concentration sometimes accompanied by an acceleration of heart rate. Beta waves can increase mental ability, focus, and alertness.

* Regulates heart rate, breathing, cholesterol, and blood pressure
* Increases creativity
* Reduces tension, anxiety, and stress
* Less activity in the amygdala where the brain processes fear
* Clears state of mind and makes it easier to kick addictions and self-defeating behaviors
* Greater intimacy with friends and family members
* Over-all positive emotions and state of mind
* Increases power of awareness by developing concentration on a particular object
* Investigate your inner self and question and contemplate the nature of existence itself

 

[daysonatrain]

"When you get the message hang up the phone." -Alan Watts

i wholeheartedly agree, its the same deal as ram dass wrote about in Grist for the Mill. but then again, people meditate their whole lives, when do they know to hang up the phone?

"Meditation should be your portal to yourself, or prayer, or yoga, or mantra something besides inducing experience with intoxicants."

all im trying to say is that most people spend their whole lives meditating doing yoga etc, and still never get to nirvana. just because their effort is directed toward "worthwhile" pursuits does not mean any more than a person who trips their whole life.

but whatever, there isnt much point in continuing this part of the discussion

 

[stonerfromohio]

"When you get the message hang up the phone." -Alan Watts

i wholeheartedly agree, its the same deal as ram dass wrote about in Grist for the Mill. but then again, people meditate their whole lives, when do they know to hang up the phone?

"Meditation should be your portal to yourself, or prayer, or yoga, or mantra something besides inducing experience with intoxicants."

all im trying to say is that most people spend their whole lives meditating doing yoga etc, and still never get to nirvana. just because their effort is directed toward "worthwhile" pursuits does not mean any more than a person who trips their whole life.

but whatever, there isnt much point in continuing this part of the discussion

Many people who meditate their whole lives reach enlightenment, and honestly enlightenment vs not enlightenment or samsara vs nirvana is just wordplay our innate mind is enlightened already, we can never be anything else than we are, never anything more than we already are. Why should they hang up the phone on meditation I don't understand what you mean the reason Alan Watts said that about psychedelics is because they are drugs, mind altering substances and doing them repeatedly is harmful and not advisable also once you get the initial insight your not going to get much more from it.

What do you mean that just because someone spends their life towards worthwhile pursuits does not mean anything more than a person who trips their whole life that doesn't make sense... someone who teaches others their true nature of mind and teaches them methods to get there so that they no longer suffer is commendable these teachers are most often always filled with compassion and love... how is that the same as someone who trips all the time?

Why is there no point to this discussion?

 

[Vader]

Meditation is a mind-altering practice just as drugs are mind-altering substances. Whether or not they are harmful to the body is totally irrelevant to whether or not they are a reliable source of knowledge. Physical changes in the brain as a result of meditation are not evidence of its reliability any more than drug-induced changes. Besides, I doubt any of us has the experience in neuroscience to even begin to interpret those images. The reason that this discussion seems to be becoming pointless is because the claim in question, that meditation is more reliable than drugs of a source of knowledge, is not being defended. Why can meditation continue to be beneficial after you have "got the message" when drugs can't? And don't say that they're poisonous or bad for you, that doesn't affect their epistemic reliability whatsoever.

 

[stonerfromohio]

Meditation is a mind-altering practice just as drugs are mind-altering substances. Whether or not they are harmful to the body is totally irrelevant to whether or not they are a reliable source of knowledge. Physical changes in the brain as a result of meditation are not evidence of its reliability any more than drug-induced changes. Besides, I doubt any of us has the experience in neuroscience to even begin to interpret those images. The reason that this discussion seems to be becoming pointless is because the claim in question, that meditation is more reliable than drugs of a source of knowledge, is not being defended. Why can meditation continue to be beneficial after you have "got the message" when drugs can't? And don't say that they're poisonous or bad for you, that doesn't affect their epistemic reliability whatsoever.

Honestly it’s fairly obvious why drugs are not reliable they are dependent on having the money to buy the drugs, they are dependent on the dealer having the drugs, they are dependent on the dealer being around to sell the drugs, they require paraphernalia to use them and their effects are dependent on the quality of drugs which is always shifting. On top of that you are not always guaranteed to have a transforming experience or learn anything its dependent on your outward circumstances such as setting and people you are with. That is not reliable even when all those factors line up you are not guaranteed to learn anything, and if you do learn something it is not necessarily going to lessen your suffering or help others. Man I have experimented with all of it I have taken mushrooms many times alone, with friends and at festivals, I have taken LSD many times alone, with friends and at festivals yes I have learned things. But the effects are not lasting, they cost money, and they have harmed many people I know psychologically and physically and they have nothing to do with enlightenment whatsoever. They can show you glimpses but you become dependent on the drugs to have those glimpses and as you do the drugs getting the glimpses becomes less and less reliable more and more expensive and increasingly harmful. Meditation costs nothing, requires no set or setting, causes no harm to your body and has increasingly positive effects that change your negative emotions into positive, your swirling thoughts into a quiet mind, your suffering into happiness. Those changes in-turn change the way you treat others. When you learn about meditation and gain insight you can also teach others and show them the way. Meditation has infinite potential to change your brain even after you have realized your true nature and stabilized abiding in it this is evidenced in studies showing how the long term mediators have the greatest brain changes. As far as not being able to understand those pictures it points out the differences, anyone can figure that out give it a second look.

If your having trouble accepting Buddhist meditation and Buddhist theory check these books out.

Embracing Mind: The Common Ground of Science and Spirituality -Alan Wallace
Contemplative Science: Where Buddhism and Neuroscience Converge -Alan Wallace
The Taboo of Subjectivity: Toward a New Science of Consciousness -Alan Wallace
Choosing Reality: A Buddhist View of Physics and the Mind -Alan Wallace
Consciousness at the Crossroads: Conversations with the Dalai Lama on Brainscience and Buddhism
Buddhism and Science: Breaking New Ground
Destructive Emotions: A Scientific Dialogue with the Dalai Lama
Gentle Bridges: Conversations with the Dalai Lama on the Sciences of Mind

Alan Wallace's credentials are:

Ph.D., Stanford University, Department of Religious Studies, 1995

M.A., Stanford University, Department of Religious Studies, 1992

B.A., Amherst College (Physics, Philosophy of Science, and Sanskrit), summa cum laude, 1987

He is involved with the Santa Barbara Institute for Consciousness Studies.

 

[stonerfromohio]

Drugs

Drugs, however, are of limited value. Since negative mental actions are the principal cause of all suffering, even physical illnesses are merely symptomatic of a diseased mind. Where drugs are the best means of treating a certain illness, their use is legitimate, but since drugs can never produce a healthy mind, such treatment is palliative at best. Until our minds are completely free from the actual causes of suffering, any illness can recur, and meditation to destroy the negative mind is the only definitive treatment of disease.

Other instances of drug use constitute drug abuse. Proprietary medicines are frequently involved. Doctors may prescribe them when they are not the best form of treatment and patients may take them for a variety of wrong reasons. Several years ago, the then director of the World Health Organization called into question the very existence of most proprietary medicines, saying that only two percent of them were indispensable and that the rest were largely unnecessary. The situation today is unlikely to be much different.

Meditation

The importance of understanding the nature of the mind in the recognition of problems has already been mentioned. This understanding is also essential for the proper application of the meditational methods that eradicate problems such as drug dependence. It is begins with listening to, reading, and studying the explanations of a properly qualified teacher.

All meditation can be divided into two broad categories: analytical and concentrative. In analytical meditation we subject the teacher’s explanations to logical scrutiny to establish their worth and to generate within us complete confidence in his or her methods of eradicating problems. It is also very important therapeutically, because through it we recognize what our mind is, how it works, what are our deepest needs, and the best means of meeting them. Thus we find, for example, that many of the things we do automatically and out of habit—such as trying to find satisfaction through the use of drugs—are illogical and harmful. As insight grows, wrong actions are abandoned automatically and right ones take their place. All this is fundamental to successful application of the specific meditations given to counteract drug dependence.

Concentrative meditation is based on the above. It leads to stability, tranquility, and single-pointedness of mind. Ultimately we use this concentration to cultivate direct insight into the nature of the mind, thereby destroying completely the ignorance that has kept us in cyclic existence and suffering since beginningless time and attaining liberation and the highest states of mind. Even while we are developing our concentration, we experience increasing peace and happiness and see for ourselves that deep satisfaction arises from within the mind itself and does not depend on materials such as drugs. Such meditation is the true cause of happiness because when done correctly it works for everybody all the time, and the more we practice it the greater the joy we experience. When through it we have eradicated ignorance, we receive ultimate happiness: unconditioned, unsurpassed and everlasting.

Conclusion

Drug dependence is widespread and increasing, but it is merely a symptom of the much more fundamental and common human problem of dissatisfaction. The great advantage of using a combination of analytical and concentrative meditation in the treatment of drug dependence is that it is a curative approach—one that destroys the actual cause of the problem. Most other methods are simply palliative. Furthermore, this approach destroys the cause of many other problems at the same time and leads us to a state beyond suffering. Therefore, at a time when other methods seem to be failing, it would be wise to investigate the place of Buddhist meditation in the treatment of drug dependence.

The use of drugs for non-medical purposes is the main form of drug abuse. Tobacco and alcohol are by far the most commonly abused drugs and their use is an enormous social and psychological problem. In comparison, the abuse of illegal, or not socially accepted, drugs such as opiates, cannabis products, hallucinogens and other mood-altering substances is of much lesser importance.

Whether people who abuse these drugs consider they have a problem or not depends upon their insight into the nature of the mind. All who take drugs do so out of dissatisfaction. Although any relief they experience is only temporary, they are unable to find or even consider an alternative solution. The futility and deludedness of seeking satisfaction through drugs—or any sense object for that matter—can be illustrated well by analyzing the use of a specific drug, for example, tobacco.

 

[stonerfromohio]

I would absolutely love if some of the people in this forum would listen to this quick audio clip its with Alan Wallace
he explains how Quantum Mechanics has proved the emptiness of phenomena, he translated for the Dalai Lama with one of the worlds leading physicists and this physicist came to the same conclusions as the Dalai Lama this clip is perfectly articulated Buddhism and physics and he clearly elucidates what emptiness of identity and phenomenon mean.

http://www.sbinstitute.com/16 Teachings/Emptiness & Quantum Mechanics.mp3

 

[Vader]

On top of that you are not always guaranteed to have a transforming experience or learn anything its dependent on your outward circumstances such as setting and people you are with

Because meditation always causes the effects you describe?

Honestly it’s fairly obvious why drugs are not reliable they are dependent on having the money to buy the drugs, they are dependent on the dealer having the drugs, they are dependent on the dealer being around to sell the drugs, they require paraphernalia to use them and their effects are dependent on the quality of drugs which is always shifting.

This is totally irrelevant to the question I asked. I simply asked what objective reason there was to give the experiences caused by meditation greater credence than the experiences caused by drugs. You have proffered a panoply of practical problems with the use of drugs, all of which are real, but none of them mean that the experiences are not accurate. Looking at the sun is bad for your eyes but it's a good way to find out if the sun's there or not.

 

[stonerfromohio]

Every time you sit down for meditation if you give it your whole attention and focus you will learn something about the mind, yourself, phenomena and you will often times experience bliss, peace, love or compassion if not all during a meditation session. And it wont cost you a dime, it wont harm you, it doesn't depend on set and setting and you can meditate on a busy street corner once you progress.

The reason to me that it seems more value should be put on meditation than drugs is as I have said for one that drugs are harmful but also as I have said inducing an experience by distorting your perceptions and clouding your mind is a lot different than resting in your natural state of mind which requires no external source or distortions to experience. What specific experiences from psychedelics are you saying have improved your life, and given you insight into reality? What did you learn about reality specifically, what change did that cause in your day to day life, what lasting impact did it have on you? I am not saying that you could not have had all of the above, psychedelics opened me up to spirituality and Buddhism but I do not think the focus should be put on drugs once you have had one or two of these experiences. Meditation is not inducing an experience, it is not altering your perceptions, it is not clouding or distorting your mind, meditation is not an intoxicant it is not a poison for your mind and body... drugs are. Even in Buddhist traditions profound significance is not generally put on satori experiences because they come and go they are merely transient experiences, transient phenomenon. But abiding in the true nature of mind, in natural awareness which is non-conceptual, blissful, and radiant is where the emphasis is placed. That is the nature of every person, tree, every sentient being... every phenomena takes place in that awareness and it can be accessed through meditation and then through mindfulness kept up through dreams, deep sleep, walking, eating, drinking and even death. Drugs cannot be used in dreams, deep sleep, while eating or drinking and especially not death. Drugs are a transient experience that harms your body and mind they will not lead to enlightenment or liberation from suffering they merely bind you to more suffering, happiness cannot be found with drugs.

 

[specialrelativity]

Buddhism™ is a philosophy, not a religion™. Personally, I am Catholic™.™ Philosophy, i.e. Buddhism, will only take you so far.

 

[Vader]

I have said inducing an experience by distorting your perceptions and clouding your mind is a lot different than resting in your natural state of mind which requires no external source or distortions to experience

This seems to me to just be honouring the perceptual biases that natural selection has left us with. Our natural brain chemistry is simply that which best serves survival and reproduction, and that is all. Evolution doesn't give a flying fuck about whether or not our perceptions accurately represent reality. And as you say, meditation can produce profound changes in the brain. Why should these changes be seen as useful while those produced by drugs are seen as distortion and clouding of the mind?

Meditation is not inducing an experience, it is not altering your perceptions

Really? Is it not the case that when you meditate you deliberately set out to achieve a type of experience that is different to ordinary consciousness?

 

[Vader]

Buddhism™ is a philosophy, not a religion™. Personally, I am Catholic™.™ Philosophy, i.e. Buddhism, will only take you so far.

Catholicism demands from its followers rejection of individual epistemic and moral responsibility. I could back up this claim, but if you can't be asked I don't see why I should be.

 

[stonerfromohio]

This seems to me to just be honouring the perceptual biases that natural selection has left us with. Our natural brain chemistry is simply that which best serves survival and reproduction, and that is all. Evolution doesn't give a flying fuck about whether or not our perceptions accurately represent reality. And as you say, meditation can produce profound changes in the brain. Why should these changes be seen as useful while those produced by drugs are seen as distortion and clouding of the mind?

Really? Is it not the case that when you meditate you deliberately set out to achieve a type of experience that is different to ordinary consciousness?

You do not set out to achieve anything, to attain anything, you calmly abide in your natural state of mind, in the space between thoughts. There is no grasping at a non-ordinary state of consciousness, no trying to attain any state of mind just peacefully abiding. So no you are not deliberately set out to achieve a type of experience that's the opposite of meditation striving to achieve or attain something that is the false idea of the self achieving.

When I smoked weed I was most certainly clouding my mind by direct experience that was certain. When I drank alcohol I was most certainly clouding my mind that was by direct experience certain. When I smoked cigarettes I was clouding my mind that was by direct experience certain. When I used cocaine I was most certainly harming my brain in a negative way my nose ran, my head felt like it was racing 1000 miles per hour and at times I felt manic and afterwords I don't even need to comment on how it felt... by direct experience I was harming and clouding my mind. All those drugs were harmful to my state of mind, and to the brain and to the body. Psychedelics when I came down often left me feeling "cracked out" or drained, mentally fatigued or with insomnia and obviously with lingering hallucinations.

Meditation by direct experience does not cause hallucinations, does not harm my body or my mind, and is not clouding the mind. Why don't you try it? To be honest these are all words you cannot dismiss something until you give it a shot over a period of time. I have tried every drug there is for the most part and they left me feeling unsatisfactory words cannot point to meditation, direct experience can.

 

[stonerfromohio]

Buddhism™ is a philosophy, not a religion™. Personally, I am Catholic™.™ Philosophy, i.e. Buddhism, will only take you so far.

What do you base your claim Buddhism will only take you so far on? Meaning what?

 

[stonerfromohio]

Yerg the state of oneness is not an altered state of consciousness, it is no an induced experience as far as drugs are concerned last comment if you don't understand there is not much more I can say on the subject.

 

[tara]

(I'd like to mention that saying "Buddhism" is like saying "Christianity": there's a lot of variance in both theory and practice, depending on which flavor you're working with.)

Alan Wallace is great! I particularly like The Four Immeasurables: Cultivating A Boundless Heart and would recommend it above the other suggestions actually, because I find it to be both a practical introduction to a basic and powerful meditation practice, and also a positive and warm volume. It's so easy for us Westerners to sound so damn cold and unfeeling when talking about the Dharma, you know? It ends up sounding like nihilism, which is so far from the truth. I mean, look at the word "suffering" -- that's a weighted term, yeah? We're using a single English word to approximate a Sanskrit term, dukkha (<- this wikipedia article is pretty good), and it's one that pretty much comes off as a negative on first glance. Words totally have power, and it's easy to immediately assume we know what something means upon hearing them, based on our own personal dictionary.

IME, psychedelics are tools that can help facilitate a shift in perception and perspective.

Meditation can be many things, and there are many methods, at its core meditation refers to the training of the mind. There are practices aimed to quell discursive thought, practices to encourage sudden insight, visualization practices, practices to cultivate awareness... and can certainly have some trippy, sensory effects!

The thing about Buddhism is that it's a path of self-exploration (hence why it is said that truth is observable: you can only really "know" it through direct experience. It can't be granted to you by another), and I think that seems unusual in this day and age because we're so used to the way organized religion works (the hierarchy, the middleman between you and the divine). Please don't assume I am trying to put down organized religion, it's not like there isn't any of that in buddhism! But there's certainly a difference between having a dialoge with a priest versus having a direct relationship with the divine/God (there's no reason that the former needs to exclude the latter actually, but that's another discussion). When you come down to it, all paths lead to the same goal: unification, non-duality.

I think too much attention is put on the Four Noble Truths. Not to suggest that they are unimportant, but it's so easy for us in the west to read "life is suffering" and recoil, get stuck right there. It sounds so negative and cold! Plus what does the fourth tell us? Follow the Eightfold Path. To so many of us, doesn't that sound a lot like "don't sin, follow these instructions, and you'll get to go to heaven"? It's so, so easy to use our own reference points and make assumptions about what is being said. I'm not suggesting I have some greater wisdom to offer to the world, but I do feel it could be useful to reframe the conversation and the language used.