Bone density / muscle hypertrophy

[Foreigner]

This 100 per cent

Diet, sleep and training all need to be perfect otherwise you are wasting your time, money and sabotaging your health.

You can't be doing anything else. Eat , sleep and train otherwise you will be very dissapointed.

My training program is on point. I've spent years perfecting it.

I've learned a hell of a lot since my OP in this thread. In 2023 I started TRT for the first time and within 6 months I climbed to 215lbs at 10% body fat. I saw a naturopath as well as an MD and it seems that my testosterone was suboptimal. That was why it was so difficult to keep on mass. I've also cycled primobolan and anavar, both of which were created for humans and target bone remodeling. I feel so much more healthy and normal since starting TRT, it's incredible.

I'll be getting another bone scan at the 1 year mark since starting hormone replacement. Will be curious to see how it's been affected. I've been following a very regimented remineralization protocol + all the usual dietary stuff for working out.

I don't agree that you "can't be doing anything else." That's extreme. I train 4-5 days a week, which also includes cardio but my focus is on strength. Each workout lasts approx 45-60 mins and is very focused. I rest and eat when I need to. There's a lot of other stuff going on in my life. I do agree that I need MORE rest than somebody who doesn't train this hard, but my training lifestyle is not all-consuming.

 

[garygroundwork]

I don't agree that you "can't be doing anything else." That's extreme. I train 4-5 days a week, which also includes cardio but my focus is on strength. Each workout lasts approx 45-60 mins and is very focused. I rest and eat when I need to. There's a lot of other stuff going on in my life. I do agree that I need MORE rest than somebody who doesn't train this hard, but my training lifestyle is not all-consuming.

You are talking about TRT

When I say cant doing anything else I'm speaking about maximising gains from a decent steroid cycle

Say you are running Test/dbol/deca for a 12 to 16 week cycle... you want to get maximise gains..you need to be extreme... same if cutting cycle
If you are out partying and not sleeping and you Diet sucks you are wasting time and sabotaging health.

sure TRT... that's different. life as normal. You are just supplementing testosterone levels.

 

[Foreigner]

You are talking about TRT

When I say cant doing anything else I'm speaking about maximising gains from a decent steroid cycle

Say you are running Test/dbol/deca for a 12 to 16 week cycle... you want to get maximise gains..you need to be extreme... same if cutting cycle
If you are out partying and not sleeping and you Diet sucks you are wasting time and sabotaging health.

sure TRT... that's different. life as normal. You are just supplementing testosterone levels.

Agreed, if you're going to go full ham then you need to be at the gym every day.

I shouldn't have used the term TRT. I'm cruising and blasting on T, it's above replacement. And yes I workout a ton. More if I add others.

 

[Serotonin101]

Agreed, if you're going to go full ham then you need to be at the gym every day.

I shouldn't have used the term TRT. I'm cruising and blasting on T, it's above replacement. And yes I workout a ton. More if I add others.

We're just replacing the test that we never had lol.
Agreed though, when drugs go up, everything else needs to match or it's just pointless stress on the body. If I'm gonna put a blow torch to burn the candle at both ends I'm gonna maximize that time period.

 

[Foreigner]

We're just replacing the test that we never had lol.

Man... tell me about it. Because of my severe autoimmune disease, my T and other hormones have been part of a slew of routine yearly blood work for the better part of a decade now. Every year they told me my T was fine, even though I had all the symptoms of low T.

Then last year I remembered that years ago in my late 20s I got my T tested because I was super burned out from work and school + partying. Turns out my exhaustion was because of something else because at that time, my T was normal and high.

When I started taking T I used that number as the reference point and when I did my health improved immensely.

Honestly, fuck doctors. When it comes to male health they all want us to be impotent and low T because they are afraid of what would happen if grown men above 35 y/o had optimal T. They want to keep us weak. Meanwhile all my female friends could get on bioidentical HRT the second they had perimenopausal symptoms. It's super easy for them.

 

[FallenOne86]

Is it possible that someone who is 37 years old who's been a chronic meth user on and off for 15 years and has been on TRT for 8 years who quit using meth but wants to work out still and bodybuild.. is it possible for your bones to permanently be fucked up to the point where you can't get your bones back to healthy and strong again and you're just fucked? I'm trying to workout like I normally was 5 days a week but it feels like I've got fucking arthritis and osteoprosis and I'm literally feeling like I'm a 137 years old not 37 and it's next to impossible even with my 100mgs TRT weekly injections to get 45 minutes in without my fucking tennis elbow or just weak brittle bones to not stop hurting and I have taken the last month off from working out but I can't continue not working out. Am I screwed for life cuz if I can't work out anymore I'm just gonna put the gun to my head and pull the trigger instead.. fuck addiction I'll just go straight to the grave if I can't have my normal life back and work out like I used to. Working out saved my life and my main question is does meth permanently fuck up your bones? Is there nothing out there that I can take? Like besides my normal 10,000 IUs of Vitamind D3 and MSM/Glucosamine would Cissus do much or is it just $$ down the drain cuz Cissus ain't cheap

 

[Foreigner]

Is it possible that someone who is 37 years old who's been a chronic meth user on and off for 15 years and has been on TRT for 8 years who quit using meth but wants to work out still and bodybuild.. is it possible for your bones to permanently be fucked up to the point where you can't get your bones back to healthy and strong again and you're just fucked? I'm trying to workout like I normally was 5 days a week but it feels like I've got fucking arthritis and osteoprosis and I'm literally feeling like I'm a 137 years old not 37 and it's next to impossible even with my 100mgs TRT weekly injections to get 45 minutes in without my fucking tennis elbow or just weak brittle bones to not stop hurting and I have taken the last month off from working out but I can't continue not working out. Am I screwed for life cuz if I can't work out anymore I'm just gonna put the gun to my head and pull the trigger instead.. fuck addiction I'll just go straight to the grave if I can't have my normal life back and work out like I used to. Working out saved my life and my main question is does meth permanently fuck up your bones? Is there nothing out there that I can take? Like besides my normal 10,000 IUs of Vitamind D3 and MSM/Glucosamine would Cissus do much or is it just $$ down the drain cuz Cissus ain't cheap

TL;DR --> I think if you need TRT and get on it + exercise and eat well, you will regain some density because you're a man. How much recovery depends on the person.

What I learned about my deep dive into osteopenia and osteoporosis is that, interestingly, young men cannot receive these diagnoses. When you get a bone density scan, it judges your bone density based on the statistical average for all of the other men your age, but they will not diagnose you with osteoporosis, especially if you're a male at age 37.

The reason is that, even men who have worse bone density than most of their peers still have higher bone density than women who receive the diagnosis, and men don't tend to suffer spontaneous fracutures at those levels. So osteoporosis studies on men are not as conclusive as for women. Because men have higher levels of T and tend to engage in more exercise, they also have more growth hormone release than women. These two things contribute to bone remodeling in the body. So in some men, the bone loss may be permanent, while in other men it's not. Osteoporosis diagnoses tend to be given to women who are perimenopausal or later. The only time they are sometimes given to men is when they are over 65 and especially over 70.

Men in their 30s usually have bone density loss because of unnatural reasons, usually drugs, but also sedentary lifestyle. I was on corticosteroids for the better part of 10 years, off and on. Yet in the brief periods when I stopped those and then started taking DHEA and pregnenolone, my density scan showed big improvements. My last scan two years ago, which took place after 10 months of solid working out + DHEA, I regained 13%. My doctor said, "This is impossible, usually it's 1-3% per year and only if prescribed bisphosphenates." Impossible is a word they like to use a lot.



DO NOT take bisphosphenates unless you are actually perrilously close to a bone fracture. Bisphosphenates make the bone density scans look better but the drug integrated into the bone actually makes it weaker.

Some people say strontium really helps. I personally never used it because it's not really something humans normally consume.

 

[Genetic Freak]

Is it possible that someone who is 37 years old who's been a chronic meth user on and off for 15 years and has been on TRT for 8 years who quit using meth but wants to work out still and bodybuild.. is it possible for your bones to permanently be fucked up to the point where you can't get your bones back to healthy and strong again and you're just fucked? I'm trying to workout like I normally was 5 days a week but it feels like I've got fucking arthritis and osteoprosis and I'm literally feeling like I'm a 137 years old not 37 and it's next to impossible even with my 100mgs TRT weekly injections to get 45 minutes in without my fucking tennis elbow or just weak brittle bones to not stop hurting and I have taken the last month off from working out but I can't continue not working out. Am I screwed for life cuz if I can't work out anymore I'm just gonna put the gun to my head and pull the trigger instead.. fuck addiction I'll just go straight to the grave if I can't have my normal life back and work out like I used to. Working out saved my life and my main question is does meth permanently fuck up your bones? Is there nothing out there that I can take? Like besides my normal 10,000 IUs of Vitamind D3 and MSM/Glucosamine would Cissus do much or is it just $$ down the drain cuz Cissus ain't cheap

Former amphetamine users are at greater risk of bone issues, try vitamin K2 with D3 to facilitate transition of calcium from blood into bone...

 

[Eryximachus]

I would add - avoid consumption of dairy products and calcium supplements.

Calcium's main role in your body is not your bones, but your heart. Your heart muscles function by deporting calcium via an osmotic reaction. If calcium levels are too high in your blood, you will have a heart attack. This is actually how calcium channel blockers work. They interfere with the process, just enough to keep the pressure down.

There is a finite number of osteoblast cells in your bones - the cells used to make new bone structure, like after a broken leg. Your body works very hard to remove excess calcium from your blood so you don't have a heart attack. It gets fed to the osteoblast cells, which strengthens your bones. When those osteoblast cells run out, you get permanent osteoporosis systemically. You can go to the WHO website and search for osteoporosis by country. Guess what countries have the highest rate (by a lot). It's not Japan.

If you already have an issue, it's best to care. Lifting will help, and specific steroids like nandrolone improve osteoporosis. But avoid the calcium...

 

[Phobos]

... but it feels like I've got fucking arthritis and osteoprosis...

What do you mean by feels like? If I got this right you do not have a diagnosis yet.
If you have joint pain steroids are probably not your best bet.
GH is probably going to strengthen soft tissues like ligaments and tendons by increasing collagen synthesis.

You need natural sources of vitamin C for collagen synthesis BTW, I'd go with multiple oranges and raw red peppers per day for a few months before considering GH.
You could supplement collagen protein powder too if you think you're not able to eat enough from your diet.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I would add - avoid consumption of dairy products and calcium supplements.

Calcium's main role in your body is not your bones, but your heart. Your heart muscles function by deporting calcium via an osmotic reaction. If calcium levels are too high in your blood, you will have a heart attack. This is actually how calcium channel blockers work. They interfere with the process, just enough to keep the pressure down.

There is a finite number of osteoblast cells in your bones - the cells used to make new bone structure, like after a broken leg. Your body works very hard to remove excess calcium from your blood so you don't have a heart attack. It gets fed to the osteoblast cells, which strengthens your bones. When those osteoblast cells run out, you get permanent osteoporosis systemically. You can go to the WHO website and search for osteoporosis by country. Guess what countries have the highest rate (by a lot). It's not Japan.

If you already have an issue, it's best to care. Lifting will help, and specific steroids like nandrolone improve osteoporosis. But avoid the calcium...

blood calcium levels controlled pretty tightly, there's no reason to avoid calcium supplements. Do you have any sources on this?

Or we would see all those women who take calcium supplements having heart attacks all the time

 

[someguyontheinternet]

What do you mean by feels like? If I got this right you do not have a diagnosis yet.
If you have joint pain steroids are probably not your best bet.
GH is probably going to strengthen soft tissues like ligaments and tendons by increasing collagen synthesis.

You need natural sources of vitamin C for collagen synthesis BTW, I'd go with multiple oranges and raw red peppers per day for a few months before considering GH.
You could supplement collagen protein powder too if you think you're not able to eat enough from your diet.

Oral collagen supplements are a scam. They're broken down into amino acids very easily by your digestive system. You get the same effect by just eating protein, unless the effect you want is having your wallet emptied

 

[Phobos]

Oral collagen supplements are a scam. They're broken down into amino acids very easily by your digestive system. You get the same effect by just eating protein, unless the effect you want is having you wallet emptied

The point is having the amino acids in the right proportions nothing else.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

The point is having the amino acids in the right proportions nothing else.

Eating chicken or drinking a protein shake accomplishes the same thing. Having amino acids in a certain proportion doesn't somehow increase the synthesis of collagen, if you have a source saying that it does I would love to read it

 

[Eryximachus]

blood calcium levels controlled pretty tightly, there's no reason to avoid calcium supplements. Do you have any sources on this?

Or we would see all those women who take calcium supplements having heart attacks all the time

Osteoporosis and heart attacks are in fact strongly correlated.

Cardiovascular disease is significantly more common in countries with high rates of osteoporosis and calcium consumption, even when considering for example, lower overall tobacco consumption. All of this is available on the WHO site.

Read about the mechanism of how calcium levels in the blood is controlled. There is one way: your bones. No more osteoblast cells, no more ability to turn calcium into bones.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Osteoporosis and heart attacks are in fact strongly correlated.

Cardiovascular disease is significantly more common in countries with high rates of osteoporosis and calcium consumption, even when considering for example, lower overall tobacco consumption. All of this is available on the WHO site.

Read about the mechanism of how calcium levels in the blood is controlled. There is one way: your bones. No more osteoblast cells, no more ability to turn calcium into bones.

I think you're oversimplifying calcium homeostasis a bit too much

37.9: Regulation of Body Processes - Hormonal Control of Blood Calcium Levels

Blood levels of calcium are regulated by the parathyroid hormone, which acts on the bones, kidneys, and intestines to keep levels constant.

bio.libretexts.org

This seems to indicate that calcification of arteries contributes to increased risk of myocardial infarction in patients with osteoporosis not disruption of the electrophysiology of cardiomyocytes

The link between osteoporosis and cardiovascular disease

Cardiovascular disease (CVD) and osteoporosis are common age-related conditions associated with significant morbidity, mortality, and disability.Traditionally, these two conditions were considered unrelated and their coexistence was attributed to independent ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Dextro .45]

HGH & Testosterone. Period,

look at Silvestor Stallone …..pure HGH & Test. He’s like 70.

age 25 I was JACKED. 6” 195lbs of rock hard lean muscle. Lifeguard. YMCA 5X weekly, 2-3 h workouts, cardio, weights, swimming, sauna, home. I looked like a Navy Seal or a GQ swim suit model. All natural

after my life got fucked and was on long term opioid medication which suppressess natural T production, low energy, zero interest in sex, soft erections, belly fat. Blood worked showed very low levels of free T

depo-Testosterone 200mg IM and BOOM, amazing antidepressants & mood-boosting properties. Harder than forged Steel, like a 19 year old kid, crazy sexy drive, etc…,I use it therapeutically and don’t know about using it as an anabolic steroid, cycles, etc.

depo-Testosterone 200mg IM injection (every 1.5 weeks)
Dextro-Amphetamine 10mg IR oral tablets
Oxycodone 5mg IR oral tablets
Alprazolam 0.5 - 1mg IR oral tablets

this combo/cocktail would make you the ultimate Superman. Euphoric, content, happy, overly confident social butterfly, the overwhelming dopaminergic pleasure (Opioid + Amphetamine) plus spiked T levels, a little low dose Xanax.

F@ck SSRI’s

Ultimate antidepressants are Testosterone & Speedball (Opioids + Dopaminergic Stimulant)
Oxycodone & Amphetamines (Dexedrine/Adderall & Ritalin)

 

[FallenOne86]

HGH & Testosterone. Period,

look at Silvestor Stallone …..pure HGH & Test. He’s like 70.

age 25 I was JACKED. 6” 195lbs of rock hard lean muscle. Lifeguard. YMCA 5X weekly, 2-3 h workouts, cardio, weights, swimming, sauna, home. I looked like a Navy Seal or a GQ swim suit model. All natural

after my life got fucked and was on long term opioid medication which suppressess natural T production, low energy, zero interest in sex, soft erections, belly fat. Blood worked showed very low levels of free T

depo-Testosterone 200mg IM and BOOM, amazing antidepressants & mood-boosting properties. Harder than forged Steel, like a 19 year old kid, crazy sexy drive, etc…,I use it therapeutically and don’t know about using it as an anabolic steroid, cycles, etc.

depo-Testosterone 200mg IM injection (every 1.5 weeks)
Dextro-Amphetamine 10mg IR oral tablets
Oxycodone 5mg IR oral tablets
Alprazolam 0.5 - 1mg IR oral tablets

this combo/cocktail would make you the ultimate Superman. Euphoric, content, happy, overly confident social butterfly, the overwhelming dopaminergic pleasure (Opioid + Amphetamine) plus spiked T levels, a little low dose Xanax.

F@ck SSRI’s

Ultimate antidepressants are Testosterone & Speedball (Opioids + Dopaminergic Stimulan)
Oxycodone & Amphetamines (Dexedrine/Adderall & Ritalin)

Hahaha my kinda guy! Damn and you're from Canada haha nice.. well the last guy from Canada disappeared cuz I made a music video with face paint and practically found out via people on the internet telling me I scared his ass that he actually went M.I.A. and now nobody knows where he's hiding and it was just me playing a joke we were taking shots at each other I didn't think I'd scare a grown man to that extreme but then again when I write music I kinda forget my words are like a sword and I can get pretty brutal. But anyways yeah that would make the perfect stack.. and I agree F*ck SSRIs.. they do no good but lower your T levels! How do you like the Depo vs Cypionate ?

 

[FallenOne86]

Former amphetamine users are at greater risk of bone issues, try vitamin K2 with D3 to facilitate transition of calcium from blood into bone...

What about the Citracel plus Calcium Citrate with Vitamin D3? Is that also good for better absorption? And is Cissus worth spending the money on or nah?

​

 

[FallenOne86]

TL;DR --> I think if you need TRT and get on it + exercise and eat well, you will regain some density because you're a man. How much recovery depends on the person.

What I learned about my deep dive into osteopenia and osteoporosis is that, interestingly, young men cannot receive these diagnoses. When you get a bone density scan, it judges your bone density based on the statistical average for all of the other men your age, but they will not diagnose you with osteoporosis, especially if you're a male at age 37.

The reason is that, even men who have worse bone density than most of their peers still have higher bone density than women who receive the diagnosis, and men don't tend to suffer spontaneous fracutures at those levels. So osteoporosis studies on men are not as conclusive as for women. Because men have higher levels of T and tend to engage in more exercise, they also have more growth hormone release than women. These two things contribute to bone remodeling in the body. So in some men, the bone loss may be permanent, while in other men it's not. Osteoporosis diagnoses tend to be given to women who are perimenopausal or later. The only time they are sometimes given to men is when they are over 65 and especially over 70.

Men in their 30s usually have bone density loss because of unnatural reasons, usually drugs, but also sedentary lifestyle. I was on corticosteroids for the better part of 10 years, off and on. Yet in the brief periods when I stopped those and then started taking DHEA and pregnenolone, my density scan showed big improvements. My last scan two years ago, which took place after 10 months of solid working out + DHEA, I regained 13%. My doctor said, "This is impossible, usually it's 1-3% per year and only if prescribed bisphosphenates." Impossible is a word they like to use a lot.



DO NOT take bisphosphenates unless you are actually perrilously close to a bone fracture. Bisphosphenates make the bone density scans look better but the drug integrated into the bone actually makes it weaker.

Some people say strontium really helps. I personally never used it because it's not really something humans normally consume.

So the DHEA will help then? I have heard taking DHEA plus Testosterone Replacement is good for men but what dose is good 50 or 100mgs? and I take it daily right? I'll look into the strontium