Opioids Are we fooling ourselves about Kratom's risks?

[Beavesmx44]

OP has an extensive history of anxiety issues that lead to this exact type of fear mongering thread and one of the reasons I don't visit often. The small amount the non opioid alkaloids hit the receptors are almost entirely insignificant. Now the main alkaloids to look for would be those that hit the mu and kappa receptors, the same as more traditional opiates. Take their effects on long term pain management patients and cut the side effects in half. Their is your answer. If you have any concerns as to certain ailments that may arise, don't use it. That simple.

 

[Mycophile]

my .02 - I was a kratom vendor, I have used it extensively for chronic pain between 2 and 25g daily, total use = 3.5 years constant. Just stopped. wooh, that was hard - not painful, but exhausting mentally and physically, could barely get across the house. experienced libido loss, thinning hair - but most worrisome - complete anhedonia and lack of motivation, interdose withdrawals and dulling of wit. A lot of people experience similar stuff. my opinion - it is an opioid with an EXTREMELY long honeymoon phase. It is more forgiving withdrawal wise as long as you use plain leaf and taper properly - if injured again, I will use it for pain control, and when I go out once a month to a place with drunks, ill use it. but make no mistake, it is an opioid and the same problems go with it.

Thanks.

Do you believe though that WHEN I quit my testosterone and adrenal glands and most of it will go back to normal??

And considering the fact that I don't use more than 3-4 days a week and have never taken it more than 3 days in a row, but use about an ounce a day when I take it, would you venture any sort of guess as to how long it might take before I feel normal again??

I know we are all just speculating, but I went 5 days without last week and on day 5 my energy was still SOMEWHAT low and I was still a little depressed, but my sex drive had already come back with a vengeance and I was no longer feeling nearly as tired as before, so some other people had SPECULATED that 2 weeks of abstainance would have me feeling pretty close to normal and that there's no way it should take more than a month of abstainence to get pretty much everything back to normal.

Would you agree.

And how long did it take YOU to go back to normal after using daily for 3 years??

Did you have any tests run before and after quitting and how was your testosterone, liver, adrenals, etc??

 

[Mycophile]

OP has an extensive history of anxiety issues that lead to this exact type of fear mongering thread and one of the reasons I don't visit often. The small amount the non opioid alkaloids hit the receptors are almost entirely insignificant. Now the main alkaloids to look for would be those that hit the mu and kappa receptors, the same as more traditional opiates. Take their effects on long term pain management patients and cut the side effects in half. Their is your answer. If you have any concerns as to certain ailments that may arise, don't use it. That simple.

Then WHY DID YOU VISIT?

Why didn't you just ignore my thread?

Listen bro, you can pass this all off as the fact that I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder, which I do, but you are lying to yourself if you think Kratom is healthy, and this isn't "fear mongering" because that term is generally used for "having an agenda and trying to stir people up to fit your agenda", not someone who has ZERO agenda and WANTS to believe Kratom is 100% healthy but can't deny it's not.

Why don't you respond in relation to all the posts about hair loss and testosterone being effected from Reddit's quitting Kratom forum or better yet, go over there and debate them and then come back and post their responses??

Why don't you respond to Cdin's account of how it effected him??

It's ok, I get it, you are very insecure about your favorite drug possibly being harmful just like I am, but unlike me you won't admit to it.

This kind of rationalization is normal.

But all I know is after 3 days in a row of use I don't feel wonderful so i can only imagine how people using every day for months or years feel.

I was FINE when I used 2 days a week....but now that I don't, I don't feel so fucking good so in a few weeks I am taking a much needed several month long break.

But YOU can just pass it off as me being a headcase.

Opioids lower testosterone, and I'm not lying to myself about it anymore, but you can continue to if you want to.

Knowing all the good, bad and ugly about a drug is a GOOD thing for users.

I want Kratom to remain legal and I want to use it OCCASSIONALLY and I want anyone who wants to use it to use it but we all need to know EXACTLY what problems it can and can't cause.

And let me ask you, what does you response even MEAN??

You talk about receptors and what not but why not answer these simpler questions:

Do you think Kratom lowers testosterone?

Why do you think some Kratom users have complained of hair loss?

Why have some users complained of adrenal fatigue and not feeling themselves for MONTHS after quitting?

Edit: Ok now I get the point you are making about studying long term users and cutting their side effects in half but why would that be a good figure?

How would we know that those side effects might not occur in more or less than 50% of long term users?

And what point are you making about the alkaloids?

Assume we DON'T all understand chemistry or science.

I don't care what receptors do what or what alkaloids do what, I just want to find out about long term effects.

You are just being kind of rude towards me dude.

One reason I use Kratom is because it helps better than anything else with my anxiety but you've attacked me on a few occassions.

Once you even called me a "conspiracy theorist" when I've never been anything like that lol.

 

[Mycophile]

well the OP asked for personal and relevant facts and infomration so all that I had here is that a really close friend has stiealy dabbled his way back ton the ways of his former H habits back east and entirely replacd them with a once pimce every singleda since he's acknolwded thjat it'stime toquit.Alli'msaing is thata sign that this can severe as any non opiodw wehn the conditions of your life somplyaccpidate them.There's a rason why te plantis nammed Thialand, too muchwithcy program that was incompresensible tothe majroitythai governing whites ruling that and mastering such plants for ever.my friend is in bad shape, looks likeshit allte time the way yould see a cohowerd you know that was justcrawling tinowork with an hou's sleepand buttshit stories you were hoping he would be lucid enough to do. The SSRIs in tramadol, as well as mniderate doses of immodium AD, should set up armed enough with left towards hanging his stiffing all gnit.

Dude, did you write this on your Iphone or what?

This is nearly incomprehensible so if you want to be understood please write it over again.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

Looks like what happens if all I do is press on the predictive words bar on my phone. Anyway, back to topic. Opiates lower testosterone? Yikes! That's another incentive for me to stay clean.

 

[Mycophile]

It's unfortunate how much I like it.

I need a few more weeks to enjoy it before I can take my break otherwise I don't see myself being successful and I doubt I'll be able to say I'll never use it again, but I also very much doubt that moderation with it is harmful so I'm not sure saying "NEVER" is necessary here.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

Never say never, and never quit opiates until you know you're ready. Imho, Until you reach that point It's pointless to even try. But that day will come.

 

[electric moon]

All the natural herbal highs were given to us as medicines by mother nature and thus they were meant to be consumed needing it.

Go ahead and start using belladonna and see where it gets you. Smoke some poison ivy too, see what happens.

 

[feedtheSoul]

1) Hair loss: Users on this site have said they lost most or all their hair after being daily users for some time.

2) Hormonal changes and Adrenal imbalance: Certain users said that even MONTHS after using....one long term user said ELEVEN months AFTER quitting he saw his endocrinologist who is telling him he STILL has hormonal imbalances and that his adrenal gland is not producing the proper amounts of adrenaline.

I used Kratom for about a month and ever since then I've had extreme hair loss and problems with my thyroid, so I can confirm this. I have hashimotos though. It helped my pain but caused stomach aches that outweighed the benefits it had for my pain and depression.

 

[Mycophile]

I used Kratom for about a month and ever since then I've had extreme hair loss and problems with my thyroid, so I can confirm this. I have hashimotos though. It helped my pain but caused stomach aches that outweighed the benefits it had for my pain and depression.

Well even though I'd never heard of hashimoto's disease, a quick search shows that that is the main (if not the only) cause of problems with your thyroid, so I wouldn't blame Kratom for that.

Do other people with this disease lose their hair?

Is their some connection between thyroid gland dyfunctions and hair loss?

And may I ask if you are a women?

I just ask because most if not all the other users who reported hair loss were women so their might be a connection.

It could still be a very rare side effect which only happens to certain specific users based on reasons we might not be able to account for.

 

[JackARoe]

OP has an extensive history of anxiety issues that lead to this exact type of fear mongering thread and one of the reasons I don't visit often. The small amount the non opioid alkaloids hit the receptors are almost entirely insignificant. Now the main alkaloids to look for would be those that hit the mu and kappa receptors, the same as more traditional opiates. Take their effects on long term pain management patients and cut the side effects in half. Their is your answer. If you have any concerns as to certain ailments that may arise, don't use it. That simple.

Amen. I notice the OP (you're a good guy Micophyle) has a level of anxiety about a topic that searching for any information will prove suspicions. If someone is determined to find evidence about a suspicion they will for sure find it regardless of the stance. That is with anything. We find all kinds of proof if we are determined but a lot of it is not valid proof, or too subjective.

Now for me, I was on heroin for years in the 80's. Poppy tea from 1995-2009. (pods were very very cheap those years) Then went CT, got clean and then used kratom when I wanted to fall off the wagon and it saved my life. I started using it in 2005 but was still using other opiates so I didn't think it was strong enough. But once I got clean it worked great. No hair loss, liver problems or anything. In fact I am much healthier than I ever have been from this tree leaf. But looking from where I came it may be a different story for someone that never used anything and stumbled on kratom. It may not be good for people that don't need it, but for some with serious histories it is a life saver. Unfortunately some of my friends never found it strong enough and stayed on other opiates. So I never offer anything unless someone asks.

IMO none of those health hazards listed, except for a lowered libido, would I ever contribute to kratom. I have done tons of research and know too many people on kratom for years that never had these issues. I have a full head of hair at 52 and am healthy in all areas. I have never felt better. One day I will leave kratom too, for now it still stops me from thinking about stronger opiates, and even when I go to my MIL house who has tons of oxy's and dilaudids. I am not tempted as long as I use kratom.

Just for fun, I always like all kinds of articles on kratom. And let's stay I was to take the stance that it is healthy. I may go searching the internet and find something like this: https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/other/kratom-leaves.html If I go searching for an article on dangers I can find lots of them too. So again, if I am determined to find the dangers of orange juice (or anything) I can find all kinds of evidence to back it up.

My advice to Mycophile. As you eluded too the problem is anxiety and may not be kratom. Change starts from within. If you go to a doctor and get a clean bil of health and want to use kratom the anxiety and fear has to stop. We can see from some of RC opiates that come out there are problems right from the beginning, OD's, hospital visits, and deaths. But kratom, even when predicted in 2006 that someone may od on an extract, has never done that. It is pretty damn safe, and most likely much safer than most of the pharms we see on TV commercials. FDA studies are a joke as we know. All working by who gives $$ and who can pay whoever off. That for sure happen. But I can say after all these years and all the people I know using kratom, to me it is a very safe alternative. I thank Mother Nature every time I utilize it and am thankful for my health.

My other advice to the OP, instead of fear, if you are healthy thank your lucky stars and go about your day. If a doctor says your liver is fine and everything is ok then go about your day. IMO kratom is nothing to worry about and has more positive momentum than negative. In fact the positive momentum carried it through and stopped some states from making it illegal. I never saw that with anything else. With all the dangerous pharms and RC's, kratom is the least of the worries from what I see.

 

[cdin]

OK, so number 1 (this to OP) you should never go from nothing to an ounce a day! Kratom is well effective at 5 - 7 grams, maxing your dose like that is asking for trouble on all fronts. And to the other question of low long it takes to feel right - I just quit a multi-year kratom habit and it took me abouut 12 days to feel somewhat normal, now I was not in pain like typical opiate withdrawal this whole time - just exhausted.... this was from 3 years avg/8g krat a day.

 

[Mycophile]

Amen. I notice the OP (you're a good guy Micophyle) has a level of anxiety about a topic that searching for any information will prove suspicions. If someone is determined to find evidence about a suspicion they will for sure find it regardless of the stance. That is with anything. We find all kinds of proof if we are determined but a lot of it is not valid proof, or too subjective.

Now for me, I was on heroin for years in the 80's. Poppy tea from 1995-2009. (pods were very very cheap those years) Then went CT, got clean and then used kratom when I wanted to fall off the wagon and it saved my life. I started using it in 2005 but was still using other opiates so I didn't think it was strong enough. But once I got clean it worked great. No hair loss, liver problems or anything. In fact I am much healthier than I ever have been from this tree leaf. But looking from where I came it may be a different story for someone that never used anything and stumbled on kratom. It may not be good for people that don't need it, but for some with serious histories it is a life saver. Unfortunately some of my friends never found it strong enough and stayed on other opiates. So I never offer anything unless someone asks.

IMO none of those health hazards listed, except for a lowered libido, would I ever contribute to kratom. I have done tons of research and know too many people on kratom for years that never had these issues. I have a full head of hair at 52 and am healthy in all areas. I have never felt better. One day I will leave kratom too, for now it still stops me from thinking about stronger opiates, and even when I go to my MIL house who has tons of oxy's and dilaudids. I am not tempted as long as I use kratom.

Just for fun, I always like all kinds of articles on kratom. And let's stay I was to take the stance that it is healthy. I may go searching the internet and find something like this: https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/other/kratom-leaves.html If I go searching for an article on dangers I can find lots of them too. So again, if I am determined to find the dangers of orange juice (or anything) I can find all kinds of evidence to back it up.

My advice to Mycophile. As you eluded too the problem is anxiety and may not be kratom. Change starts from within. If you go to a doctor and get a clean bil of health and want to use kratom the anxiety and fear has to stop. We can see from some of RC opiates that come out there are problems right from the beginning, OD's, hospital visits, and deaths. But kratom, even when predicted in 2006 that someone may od on an extract, has never done that. It is pretty damn safe, and most likely much safer than most of the pharms we see on TV commercials. FDA studies are a joke as we know. All working by who gives $$ and who can pay whoever off. That for sure happen. But I can say after all these years and all the people I know using kratom, to me it is a very safe alternative. I thank Mother Nature every time I utilize it and am thankful for my health.

My other advice to the OP, instead of fear, if you are healthy thank your lucky stars and go about your day. If a doctor says your liver is fine and everything is ok then go about your day. IMO kratom is nothing to worry about and has more positive momentum than negative. In fact the positive momentum carried it through and stopped some states from making it illegal. I never saw that with anything else. With all the dangerous pharms and RC's, kratom is the least of the worries from what I see.

Thanks for responding.

Yeah, I agree that Kratom certainly seems to be safer than MANY drugs.

I really hope it stays legal in my state (NY) and it is concerning to me that they started trying AGAIN a couple months ago to pass a bill to make it illegal in NY, but as a bunch of posters on Reddit pointed out, it is a several step process with each step taking time and if at ANY point the bill fails during any of the steps then the whole procedure starts all over again, and especially with it being an election year it is unlikely it'll be made illegal in NY this year, but I'd SERIOUSLY stock up if I started getting worried.

Although there is still much we don't know about it, and I DO think it PROBABLY lowers testosterone, other than one or two RARE cases, I have never heard of a death from Kratom (and even in these 2 cases it could have been other factors), nor have we heard of a whole lot of serious health concerns, unlike RCs/legal highs like K2 which is already causing issues all over the country, or NBOMEs which have been attributed to a number of deaths.

You are also right that with someone like me, I will always find something to worry about haha.

My brain just looks for anything and if I found out Kratom was 100% healthy I'd just find something else to worry about, so thanks for being polite (unlike that Beavesmax guy) about it.

Kratom is quite possibly THE SINGLE BEST anti- anxiety aid I've EVER used and if I could use it every day without it causing addiction I would.

I really think that despite any of it's possible side effects that it has the potential to be one of the best medicines around and in that way is very similar to Marijuanna.

See, I'm on it right now and totally not worrying about a single thing lol.

But yeah, I think we can assume it is not 100% healthy but no drug is, but if it was SERIOUSLY dangerous we'd have had many deaths by now which we haven't.

Even these claims of hair loss are relatively rare.

I REALLY want more serious studies to be done on Kratom so we can find out everything there is to know rather than everything just being anecdote.

I'm concerned that the government might try to make it illegal because it would hurt big Pharma because it MUST be safer than Oxy/Hydro and other prescription painkillers and that probably hurts their bottom line.

Anyways, I still have my plan of taking a long break in 3 weeks, at least 6 months, and then take it from there.

Peace

 

[Mycophile]

OK, so number 1 (this to OP) you should never go from nothing to an ounce a day! Kratom is well effective at 5 - 7 grams, maxing your dose like that is asking for trouble on all fronts. And to the other question of low long it takes to feel right - I just quit a multi-year kratom habit and it took me abouut 12 days to feel somewhat normal, now I was not in pain like typical opiate withdrawal this whole time - just exhausted.... this was from 3 years avg/8g krat a day.

I NEVER said I went from nothing to an ounce.

I've been using Kratom on and off for a little over 2 years now and it took time for my tolerance to get as high as it did.

When I first started about 5-7 grams would get me high but somehow I didn't realize that upping my dosage would be a big problem because I have never used drugs of this sort and didn't realize my tolerance would get so high that lower doses wouldn't work.

But the damage is done cause I just started raising my dose more and more so that now NOTHING less than 9.5 grams will have me feeling ANYTHING at all, and even then, if I take somewhere between 9.5--11.5 grams all I'll get is a very mild mood lift and a tiny bit more energy but I won't be high.

I CANNOT get high off anything significantly less than 14 grams in a single sitting.

If I'd tried to take an ounce a day from the start I'd probably have fallen asleep the second it kicked in lol.

But even after taking a 90 day break my tolerance barely lowered at all...really it only lowered a couple grams, so I don't know if it will ever get lower again but it would be great if it did.

Anyways, that's great with a multi year habit it only took you 12 days to feel normal.

Even though it SOUNDS like your tolerance was lower than mine (I'm not sure if you are saying you ALWAYS only took 5-7 grams), it also sounds like you were a daily user and never took a 90 day break like me.

While my tolerance might be massive, I've never used more than 4 days in a single week, more than 3 days in a row, or more than 13 days in a month, so I'm kind of odd in that I binge one day and then take none the next.

But because of that I think my body is more used to not having it every single day, so I doubt it would take me any longer to feel normal than it did for you.


Thanks for the response.

 

[Snake_Eyes]

Kratom is to be scooped but once a week. It has been told. Ask the papa.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/794202-KrAtOm-SuNdAy-it-s-kRaZy

Seriously though, I have never used it more than 2-3 x week at less than 5-6 grams and have never felt any ill effects and still have some sweet fucking hair. I usually don't even use it 1x a week. But I was well removed from my opiate/opioid use and wasn't using as replacement therapy or anything.

Have never experienced constipation either. Using ground leaf I usually shit 2-3 times more that day than w/o it.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/794202-KrAtOm-SuNdAy-it-s-kRaZy

Kratom constipates the hell out of me if I binge using 8-10 grams for most of the week. But you're right 2-3 times a week wouldn't constipate me much but it also doesn't increase my BM more than once a day.

I can't say I've any problems using kratom other than some stomach issues mostly during a constipated binge. I also can't really tell if kratom has had a negative effect on hair loss since my hair started thinning long before I started taking it and I shave my head every couple weeks anyways so it's not that big of deal to me.

 

[Mycophile]

Kratom constipates the hell out of me if I binge using 8-10 grams for most of the week. But you're right 2-3 times a week wouldn't constipate me much but it also doesn't increase my BM more than once a day.

I can't say I've any problems using kratom other than some stomach issues mostly during a constipated binge. I also can't really tell if kratom has had a negative effect on hair loss since my hair started thinning long before I started taking it and I shave my head every couple weeks anyways so it's not that big of deal to me.

Although I don't even know if the hair loss thing is more than a very rare side effect, my concern over it (although I feel like I'm not AS worried about it anymore) wasn't only due to the fear of losing hair but more what it might MEAN internally that it COULD make one lose one's hair.

Something about that just scared me because it sounded like it would effect hormones and testosterone and other things that might not be great if it would be causing that.

But I never heard anyone mention it on Bluelight or heard of it at all till I went to Reddit so I don't know how common it is, but with that in mind, even all the users on BL and reddit combined are still probably an extremely minute percentage of the Kratom users world wide so who really knows if it is or isn't a common side effect.

One way or another, I just think that my habit is probably not big enough overall to have any serious long term side effects IF there even ARE any serious long term side effects from Kratom use.

While my doses are pretty massive, I still never exceed, and NEVER have exceed 4 days a week, while users who have taken it every single day for years have often still reported anything worse than serious dependencies, but no actual horrible physical side effects.

That being said, I know the effect it has on my energy levels when I am not using means it couldn't be altogether too healthy, and while I chalk those up to withdrawal effects, which everyone knows Kratom has, it is one of a few reasons that in 3 weeks I'm going to be talking a very long extended break from Kratom.

Do you take Kratom every single day and if so, how long have you been taking it daily for??

 

[Snake_Eyes]

Daily or regular use on and off for a few years, generally depends on my constipation level. If I'm really backed up I'll have to take 2-3 days off, if it's not too bad I'll take 1-4 grams in the morning to get me going for work.

I have no idea about hormones and testosterone but I'm pretty sure opioids in general lower testosterone so it wouldn't surprise me if kratom did as well.

 

[EphemeralOutlet141]

I've been using Kratom about 4 times a week for the last ~2 months. Can't really say I've seen too many bad side affects besides stomach issues (which I tend to have anyways on occasion though), libido, and lately I've noticed a little bit more acne than usually. At one point it was a lot more, in places I don't normally get it.

I mean I really enjoy Kratom, I use it both for recreation and pain management, but I don't think I want to continue my use. I value my appearance and working glands/hormones, since I've already dealt with naturally occurring imbalances.

I'm open to cutting back, but we still don't know what causes those issues exactly. I would just rather quit until new info surfaces.

 

[EphemeralOutlet141]

(Sorry my edit button doesn't work)

I use around 1.5 - 3.5 teaspoons once (occasionally twice) by the way.

Good thing I can use weed for the same reasons I'm using Kratom. Might just be me, but does anyone get deathly pale, lightheaded, and dizzy when they combine the two? I've almost passed out on one occasion from it. I'm a much heavier user of pot (for a much longer time) so I don't think it would be that causing it.

 

[shadowstryker]

"It was thinning out all over as best I could tell. I've got really thick, curly hair so it can be hard to tell, but I didn't notice any bald spots. About 5 months of daily use, I started to notice more hair shedding than normal like in the shower or when I brushed it. Then it got really noticeable. Scary noticeable. I'd brush my hair once, and fill the entire brush with hair.

And I thought it was just me. I'm a very high dosage user, traded one addiction for another, and my hair has started falling out like crazy.