Tryptamines Anyone has done DMT at the peak of NBOMe (or other PEAs)?

[SpiralusSancti]

Imho biggest mistake with nbome’s was people started talking how it’s new LSD and made other expect LSD like experience. Both cuz of initial reports and cuz of in vivo results. If nbome’s were looked upon as simply close 2c-x relatives most people wouldn’t push the dose. 25c-nbome ime at under 0.5mg dose was really, really good stuff but it was still closest to 2c-c at that level, in any way it wasn’t LSD or mescaline like. 25b and 25i weren’t nearly as close to parent molecules ime but weren’t any more similar to LSD or other substances with intense mindfuck at “normal” doses.

I know people who had nbome’s as their first psychedelic and had a wonderful and life changing experience with same so they ain’t nearly as bad as some believe. I know people who opted out from using psychedelics cuz of 4-aco-DMT or 2c-e cuz they aren’t really a good starters psychedelics and fact they are safer doesn’t mean a lot to a person who thinks he/she’s gona die; same people would have a lot nicer introduction to psychedelics with nbome’s.

Another problem with nbome’s is tolerance, also leading to people taking toxic doses with time.

 

[HOOH]

Are you suggesting that one shouldn't offer harm reduction advice in case it scares them? Not sure I can get behind that. Fact is that the NBOMEs are unpredictable and adding another strong hallucinogen makes that unpredictability greater. I would definitely be cautious or, better yet, take different drugs.

Saying that NBOMes have an unpredictable nature is very different than saying that they can randomly kill you out of the blue. NBOMes, yes, are not as "safe" as LSD or psilocybin, but the fact is that they are, in moderate doses, a very good addition to the arsenal of psychedelics, with very unique and for many people, very desirable effects. As far as "harm reduction" goes, it's of course important, but I think it's been overblown and selectively targeted against certain drugs considered to be "bad" by the mainstream drug community: LSD good, NBOMe bad, ketamine good, PCP bad, and so on. Hell it feels like even heroin is somethings considered okay as long as it's not cut with the big spooky fentanyl. The amount of NBOMe fatalities are miniscule compared to the amount of fearmongering about them.

Edited to add this because I agree with it totally:

Imho biggest mistake with nbome’s was people started talking how it’s new LSD and made other expect LSD like experience. Both cuz of initial reports and cuz of in vivo results. If nbome’s were looked upon as simply close 2c-x relatives most people wouldn’t push the dose. 25c-nbome ime at under 0.5mg dose was really, really good stuff but it was still closest to 2c-c at that level, in any way it wasn’t LSD or mescaline like. 25b and 25i weren’t nearly as close to parent molecules ime but weren’t any more similar to LSD or other substances with intense mindfuck at “normal” doses.

I know people who had nbome’s as their first psychedelic and had a wonderful and life changing experience with same so they ain’t nearly as bad as some believe. I know people who opted out from using psychedelics cuz of 4-aco-DMT or 2c-e cuz they aren’t really a good starters psychedelics and fact they are safer doesn’t mean a lot to a person who thinks he/she’s gona die; same people would have a lot nicer introduction to psychedelics with nbome’s.

Another problem with nbome’s is tolerance, also leading to people taking toxic doses with time.

 

[swilow]

Saying that NBOMes have an unpredictable nature is very different than saying that they can randomly kill you out of the blue. NBOMes, yes, are not as "safe" as LSD or psilocybin, but the fact is that they are, in moderate doses, a very good addition to the arsenal of psychedelics, with very unique and for many people, very desirable effects. As far as "harm reduction" goes, it's of course important, but I think it's been overblown and selectively targeted against certain drugs considered to be "bad" by the mainstream drug community: LSD good, NBOMe bad, ketamine good, PCP bad, and so on. Hell it feels like even heroin is somethings considered okay as long as it's not cut with the big spooky fentanyl. The amount of NBOMe fatalities are miniscule compared to the amount of fearmongering about them.

Okay, I get what you are saying. I would just personally advise against any psychedelic that had fatalities associated with especially when there are countless others that really don't. It still seems that the fear of upsetting tripping people isn't the best reason to be anything but clear with HR advice. But I take your point. I don't know much about NBOMEs and thought/hoped they'd largely been consigned to the dustbin.

 

[HOOH]

I would just personally advise against any psychedelic that had fatalities associated with

Does that involve then any of the 5-MeO-xxT compounds, any of the 2C-X compounds or any of the alpha-methylated tryptamines? What about if LSD or psilocybin or DMT had fatalities? Would they be on the ban list then? What about amanita muscaria, outright classified as a poisonous (as opposed to psychoactive) mushroom?

It still seems that the fear of upsetting tripping people isn't the best reason to be anything but clear with HR advice

Upsetting tripping people is probably the most important thing to avoid. Of course dying is a worse fate than getting worried of dying, but in practice, it's not going permanently insane, or trying to fly by jumping out of windows, developing HPPD or dying which are the main concerns with tripping, but the fear of those occurring. Acknowledging that is being clear with harm reduction advice.

I don't know much about NBOMEs and thought/hoped they'd largely been consigned to the dustbin.

That's the same ignorance which drives the entire war on drugs. It's okay, as long as you are willing to learn. NBOMes are fascinating compounds which are not only useful scientifically because of their 5HT2A selectivity and potency per gram, but also recreationally due to their extreme visual nature, clear headspace and low amount of side effects (meaning nausea mostly, of course deaths have occurred). They're not an LSD substitute, they're a fine psychedelic on their own.

 

[swilow]

Does that involve then any of the 5-MeO-xxT compounds, any of the 2C-X compounds or any of the alpha-methylated tryptamines?

To the extent they have fatalities or unique harms associated with them, yes. Avoid them if possible, if not avoid mixing potentially dangerous drugs with them and be extra careful.

What about if LSD or psilocybin or DMT had fatalities?

They really don't, though. But...um yeah, if people were dying from them, I'd probably mention it on a harm reduction board.

I'm not too sure what you're really even arguing tbh. I do powerlifting/bodybuilding and there are some exercises that are more injurious than others. I certainly don't have a ban list of exercises, but I certainly advise doing safer alternatives.

Upsetting tripping people is probably the most important thing to avoid.

I'm not advocating running up to people tripping on NBOMEs all "you're gonna die, man". I'm just saying that on a harm reduction forum, where people are often gathering information before taking a drug, we'd be remiss if we didn't discuss the possible consequences of whatever compound because we don't want to frighten trippers. That's not to say that a bad, fearful psychedelic experience isn't potentially very harmful- just that avoiding that outcome doesn't come at the cost of speaking realistically about the risks of certain chemicals. If upsetting people is the master value, we should perhaps not talk in public at all.

That's the same ignorance which drives the entire war on drugs. It's okay, as long as you are willing to learn. NBOMes are fascinating compounds which are not only useful scientifically because of their 5HT2A selectivity and potency per gram, but also recreationally due to their extreme visual nature, clear headspace and low amount of side effects (meaning nausea mostly, of course deaths have occurred)

Ffs man. You're now equating me to the authoritarianism of the war on drugs because I agreed that smoking DMT on the peak of a drug that you concede has killed people may be a risk not worth running. That's an absurdity. Calm down.

If you want to do NBOMEs, I'm neither interested in stopping you nor am I judging it or even having much emotional response to it at all. I'm not saying that people shouldn't do these things. I'm sure there are unique and positive effects that make this class of compounds worth exploring for some people. I dont have a "ban list" of drugs. But making informed choices is something I'm quite keen to facilitate. Do what you will though.

Anyway, as with most contentious discussion, the truth is probably somewhere between two positions. I'm not sure you and I are going to find it judging by the calibre of your replies to me and my irritation-driven response, so perhaps we just drop the off-topic discussion for now.

Either way, all the best, be safe.

 

[HOOH]

To the extent they have fatalities or unique harms associated with them, yes. Avoid them if possible, if not avoid mixing potentially dangerous drugs with them and be extra careful.

Wait you think 5-MeO-DMT and 2C-B should be avoided? Get out of here. Just wait until you hear about the 5HT2B-mediated valvulopathy which could theoretically occur with any psychedelic.

They really don't, though

Yeah, but that's only a matter of our luck. What if they did have fatalities? I'd say they were still worth using. Same goes with NBOMes. Yes, of course, you can still "mention it on a harm reduction board" (which I'd argue this board isn't), but that's different than saying that you hope they are "in the dustbin of history."

I'm just saying that on a harm reduction forum, where people are often gathering information before taking a drug, we'd be remiss if we didn't discuss the possible consequences of whatever compound because we don't want to frighten trippers. That's not to say that a bad, fearful psychedelic experience isn't potentially very harmful- just that avoiding that outcome doesn't come at the cost of speaking realistically about the risks of certain chemicals. If upsetting people is the master value, we should perhaps not talk in public at all.

Yes yes yes, everyone already knows that NBOMes have risks associated with them, the days of kids going "what's this" and taking four 500µg 25-I tabs is long gone — 2007 was 16 years ago, the only people taking NBOMes now are people who know what they're doing, and there's no need to fearmonger about the toxicity which accompanies NBOMe overdose to this crowd. Harm reduction is important, but if you want to talk to psychedelic beginners, go to reddit.

Ffs man. You're now equating me to the authoritarianism of the war on drugs because I agreed that smoking DMT on the peak of a drug that you concede has killed people may be a risk not worth running. That's an absurdity. Calm down.

But where is really the difference? Both are cases of ignorance overblowing real risks while claiming to be advocates of public safety. I don't think DMT needs NBOMe or vice versa, so I don't really have an opinion on their synergy, both are great as standalone psychedelics. If you don't wish to continue this conversation, that's okay, I bet the dozens of positive NBOMe trip reports on the internet do a better job at defending this compound than I could anyway

 

[swilow]

Wait you think 5-MeO-DMT and 2C-B should be avoided? Get out of here.

Pure strawmanning right there. I didn't say that, you've filled in the blanks. That lead me to ignore the rest of your post.

Take NBOMEs if you want. I'm sure they're great. I just felt, and still do feel, that your reasoning for not mentioning the risks of these compounds was underwhelming.

 

[HOOH]

Pure strawmanning right there. I didn't say that, you've filled in the blanks. That lead me to ignore the rest of your post.

Take NBOMEs if you want. I'm sure they're great. I just felt, and still do feel, that your reasoning for not mentioning the risks of these compounds was underwhelming.

You are trying to weasel your way out of this, but it won't be so easy. Your statement of "To the extent they have fatalities or unique harms associated with them, yes" means that the 5-MeO-Tryptamines should be avoided far more than NBOMes, which in total have caused only a few dozen deaths (Matthew Lipow's paper from March 2022 claims only 9 deaths documented on PubMed, out of 42 documented cases requiring hospitalization, many of which weren't actually threatening — people go to ER for LSD all the time). This is not a lot since everyone and their dog knows someone who has been sold (or thinks they have been sold) NBOMe. We are just really lucky that other psychedelics don't have overdose toxicity (or unlucky, since it sets expectations), but the existence of LSD, psilocybin and DMT shouldn't be generalized to all worthwhile psychedelics. No free rides.

I don't use NBOMes, never have, but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to let a chemical class which deserves full praise, get crunched up by hysteria resulting from poor timing (it's discovery in 2003 coinciding with a massive LSD shortage), media sensationalism and just overall war on drugs shit. Pretending like NBOMes are a major fatality risk akin to smoking carfentanyl on tinfoil, that's what I call a strawman.

 

[Pfafffed]

I've heard great things about vaporizing DMT on the peak of mescaline from a ton of people, although I've never tried it myself.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Guess what, LSD killed way more people than nbome’s. Sure, cuz it’s used for a way longer time and by lot more people. It did killed a lot more often when it was an RC tho.

If you don’t know that fact, you simply never got deep enough into psychedelics. I personally don’t know for any nbome related death in my country (well in fact I was told it was involved in one violent death, but reasoning for it being nbome was there was acid drought and shit-load of nbome’s, beside that there was no conformation of actual “trip” not being acid in fact) and I know for a couple of confirmed LSD fatalities so.. Not LSD overdoses ofc, but death that would no way occur if person didn’t take LSD.

Psychedelics can and do kill and worse. So does ocean and I fucking love both!

 

[swilow]

While I don't want to detail the thread further, I would just say that it's probably worth differentiating between psychedelics that have pharmacological toxicity at relatively small overdoses (like BDF or NBOMes) and those that can generate harm behaviourally. Basically all psychedelic can do the latter, but the former is relatively uncommon. It doesn't seem like bad advice to suggest users exercise extra caution with the former type and avoid combinations or high doses, etc.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Here's a response I made concerning 100mg 2c-e overdose. And that's certainly a substance most consider very safe. Just cuz something is potent in µ range and kills in mg range doesn’t mean anything.

This a great info for people all the time bullshitting about some substances with close active dose to od amount.

I used close to 40mg of 2c-e as my biggest dose. Yeah, orally but still, that’s not even 3x the dose that killed. And I personally know person who snorted 50 - 60mg of 2c-e and had a great experience, so maybe not even 2x more was needed for lethal dose, and he originally intended to do 100+ mg as it’s a “safe drug” just to be stopped by a bit wiser friend!

On the other hand I had a great experience with 500 – 600µ of 25c-nbome and know people who have gone 50x higher. (yeah I know some supposedly died from less) Single blotter of nbome can kill either in combo with something or if it’s covered with powder.

Now BDF, I had great experience with about 1 – 1.5mg max (0.5 is active), know many people who took multiple times that and even OD case with it, I wont even say how much but could have ended very bad, luckily just changed that persons life for the better.

Sure snort nbomx or BDF and you’ll kill yourself easy but speaking of killer blotter from outer space while claiming 5-meo-dmt can’t kill...wow RC scene was and is full of way more dangerous stuff than named, only reason why people don’t drop like flies from that stuff is it’s not active in microgram range.

If it’s bitter it’s a spitter not a killer!

 

[swilow]

Here's a response I made concerning 100mg 2c-e overdose. And that's certainly a substance most consider very safe. Just cuz something is potent in µ range and kills in mg range doesn’t mean anything.

If the difference between a 'normal' dose and a potentially fatal dose is relatively little, it certainly does mean something. It doesn't mean you can't use the substance safely, it just means you want to be careful how you use it and what you combine it with.

 

[simstim]

I'm planning to get a DMT vape cart soon and I have plenty of 25b-NBOH so I can see me trying this soon. I will report back with results.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

If the difference between a 'normal' dose and a potentially fatal dose is relatively little, it certainly does mean something. It doesn't mean you can't use the substance safely, it just means you want to be careful how you use it and what you combine it with.

I’m trying to point out how people are in delusion about most substances being “relatively safe” as in case with 2c-e. As there’s fatality with “just” 100mg that means potentially very dangerous level isn’t even 2x from really strong dose. People seem to like better stuff that kills at 100mg than at 10mg and I can’t see why.

Very few drugs are really hard to OD (if some has LD50 in mouse at 100x active dose, for people that could easy mean it’s lethal at far less than 10x of “normal dose” – and if that means 100mg ofc less people will OD than if that means 10mg), most are in fact just of relatively low potency so less people end up taking dangerous dose, that’s my point.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I can see why it caused people to think less potent stuff means less dangerous but those who have enough knowledge also often tend to promote idea how, good example is, 2c’s are safer than DOx and in reality that’s the case only when someone doesn’t know what he handles and how to handle it.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Also don’t forget folks saying how “it doesn’t count if someone died from X by suffocating in vomit or from accident/violent death” well damn, in that case booze can be considered one of safest/hardest drugs to OD.