Health any schizophrenics have exp. with DMT?

[Nexus9]

I've been thinking a lot about this thread recently, and I came up with a sort of theory.
I think we can all agree that schizophrenia is a group of disorders, not just a single disorder.
It seems that most everybody in this thread (correct me if i'm wrong) that was cured by dmt had amphetamine-related-drug-induced schizophrenia.

* This thread is about a ex-meth user being cured from schizophrenia that meth brought out
* in the beginning on the thread yaesutom, says that DMT helps take away "ghost people" after using MDA
* yoyoman claims DMT takes people down from DOC trips.
* jonah_22 said he got schizophrenia later in life after trying ayahuasca (DMT didn't bring his schizophrenia out), then comments that methamphetamine causes "shit to blow up". One might infer that his schizophrenia was brought out by meth use, and not ayahuasca.
* tmtm said he had a friend who got schizophrenia because of DMT... so it can't be that DMT prevents all types of schizophrenia.

Conclusion: DMT can treat one type of schizophrenia... and make another type much worse. Maybe we can identify patterns as to which schizophrenias it will worsen, and which it will cure.

DMT brings a very sharp and in the moment sort of high. Everything has a very "real" feel to it, and there is a "presence" (hard to describe). The schizophrenias described here sound more like the subject is out of it and not able to cling on to reality because they are removed. Where DMT seems to add on to reality, the schizophrenias described here seem to subtract. While re-reading this thread I realized "StagnantReaction" mentioned this idea as well. I think the removed form of schizophrenia is only one type though. The removed-form of schizophrenia seems to carry more of the "negative" symptoms of schizophrenia. Do these 3C-induced schizophrenias (and amphetamine induced psychosis) typically cause more negative symptoms and patients that seem to be more removed from reality?

One last thing, can't schizophrenia and mental illness be brought out by ANY intense experience? Psychedelics are just a chemically induced intense experience. Is it simply the fact that a trip was intense (whether on DMT or not) that brings out mental illness? Are the intensity and the susceptibility of the patient to schizophrenia the main factors? Or is this not true, somebody who takes small amounts of psychedelics frequently have mental illness brought out as well? Would small doses of DMT have the possibility of launching somebody into a schizophrenia (or make their symptoms worse)?

 

[Xorkoth]

Good thoughts, Nexus... I hope some people discuss them.

One last thing, can't schizophrenia and mental illness be brought out by ANY intense experience? Psychedelics are just a chemically induced intense experience. Is it simply the fact that a trip was intense (whether on DMT or not) that brings out mental illness? Are the intensity and the susceptibility of the patient to schizophrenia the main factors? Or is this not true, somebody who takes small amounts of psychedelics frequently have mental illness brought out as well? Would small doses of DMT have the possibility of launching somebody into a schizophrenia (or make their symptoms worse)?

I believe that psychedelics can't cause schizophrenia out of nowhere, but of course they can bring it out if it's lying dormant in you already. And yes, mental illness can be brought out by any traumatic experience, absolutely.

Howevef, I haven't done any research on it, so my thooughts on the matter are only of so much merit.

 

[GRIJZEKAK]

I have read of research which suggested DMT use triggers production of serotonin receptors (and therefore it acts as a longterm antidepressant). If you then look at one neurofysiological fact (or assumption) of schizophrenics - schizo's have less serotonin receptors in their frontal lobes- then curing schizophrenia with dmt doesnt seem that weird to me.

 

[Scoobysnacks]

that sounds very dangerous, est thing for ya guy is to leave all drugs alone except medication he has to take, my best mate has pycosis after serving in the gulf and he wont admit it but drugs now fuck him up and make him worse in the weeks ahead, best thing ya can do is to try to guide him away from drugs altogether

 

[wee beefy]

I've been thinking a lot about this thread recently, and I came up with a sort of theory.
I think we can all agree that schizophrenia is a group of disorders, not just a single disorder.
It seems that most everybody in this thread (correct me if i'm wrong) that was cured by dmt had amphetamine-related-drug-induced schizophrenia.

* This thread is about a ex-meth user being cured from schizophrenia that meth brought out
* in the beginning on the thread yaesutom, says that DMT helps take away "ghost people" after using MDA
* yoyoman claims DMT takes people down from DOC trips.
* jonah_22 said he got schizophrenia later in life after trying ayahuasca (DMT didn't bring his schizophrenia out), then comments that methamphetamine causes "shit to blow up". One might infer that his schizophrenia was brought out by meth use, and not ayahuasca.
* tmtm said he had a friend who got schizophrenia because of DMT... so it can't be that DMT prevents all types of schizophrenia.

Conclusion: DMT can treat one type of schizophrenia... and make another type much worse. Maybe we can identify patterns as to which schizophrenias it will worsen, and which it will cure.

DMT brings a very sharp and in the moment sort of high. Everything has a very "real" feel to it, and there is a "presence" (hard to describe). The schizophrenias described here sound more like the subject is out of it and not able to cling on to reality because they are removed. Where DMT seems to add on to reality, the schizophrenias described here seem to subtract. While re-reading this thread I realized "StagnantReaction" mentioned this idea as well. I think the removed form of schizophrenia is only one type though. The removed-form of schizophrenia seems to carry more of the "negative" symptoms of schizophrenia. Do these 3C-induced schizophrenias (and amphetamine induced psychosis) typically cause more negative symptoms and patients that seem to be more removed from reality?

One last thing, can't schizophrenia and mental illness be brought out by ANY intense experience? Psychedelics are just a chemically induced intense experience. Is it simply the fact that a trip was intense (whether on DMT or not) that brings out mental illness? Are the intensity and the susceptibility of the patient to schizophrenia the main factors? Or is this not true, somebody who takes small amounts of psychedelics frequently have mental illness brought out as well? Would small doses of DMT have the possibility of launching somebody into a schizophrenia (or make their symptoms worse)?

your so wrong, schizophrenia is a major mental illness not a " group " off illnesses. the dabate regading this is whether its a chemical imbalance in the brain or nature/ nurture. any brug can bring this on if the person has a predisposition to the drug. also if anyone in your family has this terrible illness then this will increase the chances of other family members to be diagnoses with the same. my advice is if you have been diagnosed then do not take any drugs at all.

 

[telepathetic]

Wow i mean, this blows my mind .


He's taking.. cognentin.. something lke that, i am about to go pick him up in a few minutes - I asked him how he was doing (day later) , GREAT! he said he'll tell me more.. but this is just incredible.

It doesn't "suprise me", i expected 'symptoms' to go down, but, i did not expect him to say what he did last night!

Thing is, people with "schizophrenia" in this country, don't get 'cured' because all we do is put them on some horrible, damaging anti-psychotic, its awful. I will link it later but there is a good thread in Health Q&A about how schizophrenia "doesn't exist" - and , i totally totally agree with that.

I was reading an article on maps.org about childhood schizophrenia, about how its normal to walk into these centers and see young kids taking their shit and sliming it all over the walls etc. They used LSD, psilocybin, or both, and cured these kids, after just several sessions, this doesn't suprise me at all...

I'm very excited about this, and i will report any updates about him etc.. When he goes back home, i'm going to keep in close contact / make sure he has some DMT, and i'll tell him IMO I think he should only smoke DMT when if/any symptoms return etc. I don't think it would be a good idea to be smoking it all the time (heh, DMT, addictive shit hehehe) - but if used like a medicine wow, .. I will report back hopefully all good news!

Honestly, dude, stop NOW. you're making some of the same mistakes I did, and if you don't quit while your ahead before you fuck up your friend for life.

 

[nearjat]

Honestly, dude, stop NOW. you're making some of the same mistakes I did, and if you don't quit while your ahead before you fuck up your friend for life.

Exactly. You have no qualifications to be treating this illness. I know its fun to play psychedelic doctor but this is serious shit.

 

[Dondante]

^FYI, that post is 5 years old.

I'm curious to hear more personal experiences, but I certainly do not advocate the unsupervised experimentation with a powerful psychedelic for individuals suffering from schizophrenia.

It's wonderful to hear that an individual with schizophrenia benefited from a DMT experience. However, applying the term 'cure' to what happened is simply misleading. Yaesutom's friend was on an antipsychotic before the DMT, and continued to take the medication after his experience with DMT. He had not been hearing voices at the time that he smoked DMT, though he was afraid that the voices would return. After the experience, he felt better and was less concerned about the potential of the voices returning. This therapeutic effect seems to be mediated by a change in perspective or a new insight into the illness, rather than resolution of the processes underlying the illness. On the other hand, the temporary decrease in antipsychotic-induced muscle rigidity (antipsychotics often carry Parkinsonian-like side effects) could very well be pharmacologically mediated.

your so wrong, schizophrenia is a major mental illness not a " group " off illnesses.

I think he was indicating that schizophrenia is an incredibly heterogeneous 'disorder' if we can call it such. The diversity of manifestations of schizophrenia point to the absence of a common underlying etiology/pathology. Also, genetic linkage studies have consistently failed to detect a gene or group of genes that are responsible for the disorder. For this reason, it is more appropriate to think of schizophrenia as an umbrella term for a wide variety of persistent or relapsing/remitting psychotic states. Really, the distinctions between different psychotic illnesses are rather fuzzy, and ultimately quite arbitrary. The same applies to the distinctions that are used to differentiate the mental healthy from the mentally ill.

 

[theghostofbillhicks]

Dude this is a BAD idea. THere is research that suggests that schizophrenia is actually CAUSED by endongenous DMT. a.

The etiology is not fully understood yet but current thinking suggests that it is a latent condition, which can be brought out earlier by trauma (psychedelic, psychological, emotional or physical, i.e. a terrible trip). The trauma does not CAUSE it, it just brings it out early.

DMT and its relation to psychoses is interestingly investigated in DMT the Spirit Molecule but it certainly doesn't CAUSE schizophrenia, there isn no study which suggests that.

Saying that, I certainly would err away from offering DMT to someone who is prone to psychotic episodes (schizophrenia is simply defined as a series of psychotic episodes).

 

[rutterback]

I have schizophrenia and I've smoked DMT.... It doesn't cure any of the symptoms for me...

 

[yaesutom]

Ok so here I am years later bumping this thread..

A lot of my opinions have changed since then, and very recently i've figured out how to -cause- psychosis temporarily in myself with a combo of drugs, MDPV and then a small dose of 4-AcO-DMT (which to me, feels like its somewhere inbetween mushrooms and N,N-DMT).


-- Do a bunch of MDPV (i would guess HIGH dose meth, might do it, not sure), and then, I.M. some 4-AcO-DMT (like 10mg). BOOM - I'm in hell for 3-4 hours til the 4-acetoxy-dmt wears off. Everyone's after me kind of thing. I've had it before from staying awake too long on dexedrine. Its actually a very interesting trip/experience AS long as i'm on a heavy benzo dose..

My friend is still on heavy meds to the point he barely functions (from what i heard from friends who have seen him more recently). He's been heavily sedated for years, he's on so many meds that dull consciousness.

DMT and 4-AcO-DMT are different though and I still think DMT may be useful in certain psychotic circumstances. But, maybe not 4-aco-dmt.. for me anyway. DMT is unique there is nothing like it, you change anything about the molecule and it just doesn't do what DMT does.

Next time I get some stimulant induced psychosis I will try smoking some DMT.. it really didn't cross my mind to try smoking N,N-DMT while in "hell" after doing 4-aco-dmt after too much MDPV. I was on heavy benzo's riding a bike around, watching all this psychosis, like my subconscious is pissed off at me. Been to "hell" a few times, and have friends who have too (usually due to abusing adderall or something).

Some of you might know what i'm talking about with "hell", when it seems like everyone everywhere knows everything in your head and its always been that way (you are the cosmic joke), and how it seems like they are just actors in your life, and you wonder what the point of it all is.. It seems so real when it happens but if you've been through it before you might see it differently - like your subconscious talking to you.. I purposely did this combo a few times (MDPV, then 4-aco-dmt) with benzo's just curious to see if i could have a chat with my subconscious.

I think the anti-psychosis thing just works for DMT, but not even related psychs like mushrooms/4-aco-dmt. Who knows.. We know so little but DMT is just ... unexplainable. I had my last ++++ on 4-AcO-DMT.. but stimulants were not involved. It seems that stims + 4-aco-dmt = bad (unless your on benzo's and doing it on purpose). But I doubt 4-aco-dipt/det/met/mipt/whatever after MDPV would cause the same thing to happen. That DMT part does some unique stuff whether its good or bad.

My friend never got off the heavy meds so i can't say he's doing well, he's sedated 24/7. He probably wouldn't mind hitting a bowl of DMT though.

 

[Ismene]

The etiology is not fully understood yet but current thinking suggests that it is a latent condition

I thought it was genetic and that it almost always first appears in your late teens/twenties.

If psychedelics triggered it you would have expected the rate to have exploded over the last 50 years since psychedelic and cannabis use became widespread. That isn't the case - rates have been constant for the last 100 years and fallen slightly recently.

 

[joshg]

The other day my friend took DMT. He is a paranoid schizophrenic who believes he is the main character in some sort of reality show, among other bizarre ideas. He is unaware he is ill and refuses medications. So the other day he smoked some DMT and he told me his psychosis lifted. It was absolutely incredible. Both positive and negative symptoms gone out of nowhere. The next day he texted me and said that smoking helped him with his anxiety and that he finally had normal dreams where he had free will instead of his usual dreams of him dying and asking God that everyone be wiped out or that the people he doesn't like become his mother's servants, etc. I've also had the experience where if another of my friends wanted to end a shroom trip they would take a small hit of DMT. Now this was very risky but the way the laws are set up in the United States, what else was there to do. The situation was hopeless. At the least there should be investigation on administration of DMT to those with treatment resistant schizophrenics. Please be extremely careful. I don't know if my friends psychosis will worsen with a few weeks, nor will I report the results here as to not encourage anyone to duplicate what my friend did.

 

[No. 13 Baby]

any other accounts of schizophrenics being helped by DMT?

 

[enzoff]

here is a bit info from my research i found to be intresting, DMT is releasd in large amounts in the most stressful situations like (clinical death or birth)to protect cells death caused by oxygen deprevation, and it seems to me that biggest cause for schizo is hypoxia At birth

 

[enzoff]

I do belive that dmt just could rewire the brain ^^

 

[Kaleida]

I have known one diagnosed schizophrenic and one undiagnosed voice-hearer who have smoked DMT.

The former person gets episodes that make people who just hear voices seem practically normal. When I had talked to her the only hallucinogen she had ever tried was DMT, so this comparison could be flawed next to someone who had tried like five or more different trips, but she said that the only significant difference between the DMT and her episodes was that the DMT was euphoric. She experienced no negative consequences as a result of doing this, but I'm not sure if it helped her condition either. Though, I do know it helped her gain some perspective on it which she has used to handle it more positively.

The latter person did not make comparisons like that, but she was also amazed by the trip and did not have any negative consequences. She has since then also tried LSD and 4-HO-MET, both without any problems arising. Though, the strong LSD trip did shake her up for a little while afterward, but only in the way it could shake up anyone who had an extremely powerful trip on LSD for their first time with it.

Personally, I have a really hard time believing that psychedelics could make schizophrenia worse on a chemical level, because if they could you'd think they'd be directly causing it all the time too. However, both of the people I knew were aware of their symptoms and were used to dealing with them. I sure as hell wouldn't give hallucinogens to someone who already doesn't have a very strong grip on reality.

here is a bit info from my research i found to be intresting, DMT is releasd in large amounts in the most stressful situations like (clinical death or birth)to protect cells death caused by oxygen deprevation, and it seems to me that biggest cause for schizo is hypoxia At birth

To my knowledge, there is not actually any evidence of this yet.

 

[No. 13 Baby]

I have known one diagnosed schizophrenic and one undiagnosed voice-hearer who have smoked DMT.

The former person gets episodes that make people who just hear voices seem practically normal. When I had talked to her the only hallucinogen she had ever tried was DMT, so this comparison could be flawed next to someone who had tried like five or more different trips, but she said that the only significant difference between the DMT and her episodes was that the DMT was euphoric. She experienced no negative consequences as a result of doing this, but I'm not sure if it helped her condition either. Though, I do know it helped her gain some perspective on it which she has used to handle it more positively.

The latter person did not make comparisons like that, but she was also amazed by the trip and did not have any negative consequences.

That's amazing Kaleida, thanks for sharing! :D

 

[Solipsis]

Personally, I have a really hard time believing that psychedelics could make schizophrenia worse on a chemical level, because if they could you'd think they'd be directly causing it all the time too. However, both of the people I knew were aware of their symptoms and were used to dealing with them. I sure as hell wouldn't give hallucinogens to someone who already doesn't have a very strong grip on reality.

Yes very good post but about this part: I'm a little skeptical about how important the difference between making worse on a 'chemical level' or on another level is. The only good thing I will say about it is that I guess there is a difference in how psychoses can be produced namely by a combination of paranoia and exhaustion eventually overwhelming the defenses of a mind (for example stimulants and/or sleep deprivation) to perhaps more normal impulses, or on the other hand having the experience itself being totally warped like with DMT.
A good thing may be that a short DMT flash may be as insane for almost anyone, but reasonable to survive once the flash wears off compared to the stims and sleep deprivation.

But the thing to focus on is that people with a condition like schizophrenia do have problems with their grip on reality that are serious enough to warrant extreme caution with *any* of these reality warping methods.

It's really hard to judge anyone who is considering something they consider one of their few options to help what they'd otherwise consider doomed, although I would still say to them that it is always absolutely best to exhaust all other regular options involving antipsychotics etc.

Anecdotal evidence is certainly interesting to read about but the last thing a schizophrenic probably needs is to experiment with a drug that could temporarily relieve them, induce a really short episode or really get them in to trouble. Let ALL of that experimenting be done in research settings and don't further ruin your life if it is not yet ruined for the full 100%.

This has nothing to do with the possibility I entertain that DMT may actually be of use, I certainly wish for that to be the case... but that doesn't mean you jump the gun, just like suicide is not an answer to depression if you have not exhausted each and every way to treat it *somewhat* orthodoxically.

 

[elstongunn39]

bump