Help! Antidepressant use and Psychedelics

[n3ophy7e]

because I took a TCA (Nortriptyline) for 7 days.

Wait wait wait.....you only took nortriptyline for 7 days??? Mate, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, not with sexual dysfunction or compromisation of psychedelics.

Why don't you just take some LSD or mushrooms and see for yourself instead of panicking about it for no reason?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I’ve been taking all kinds of drugs (but especially LSD and stimulants) for nigh on 30 years. During that period I have also been prescribed a wide range of SSRI’s and AP’s as well as mood stabilisers and anti-convulsants. And random pharmaceuticals some neuroleptic and some not.

What I have learned through experience and research is this (in random order of importance).

1. As you age your experience of drugs naturally changes. This is especially so for drugs strongly affected by “set” as your thought patterns, memories, and emotions develop and change through time.

My experience of LSD at 50 is entirely different to what it was at 18 because it has very different psychological material to work with now than it did then.

2. Neuroleptic drugs permanently change the architecture of your brain. Depending on the drug, dose, and duration these changes can be large or small and they can occur in the dopaminergic system, the serotonergic system, and other barely researched systems and locations.

This means that the experience of certain drugs changes acutely while you are taking a medication (due to receptor expression or blockade, agonism or antagonism etc etc) but also chronically due to upregulation, downregulation as well as actual changes in absolute and relative neuronal density in different parts of the brain.

For example I feel very strongly that AP’s have greatly diminished my ability to feel the full dopaminergic effects of stimulant drugs.

3. For all drugs there are two kinds of tolerance. Chronic lifetime tolerance that never resets and gradually diminishes the total potential intensity of a given drug for you. Resettable acute tolerance from recent use that may be immediate (like LSD) or build up over several days or weeks in a binge (like stims).

On the upside, the fact that LSD actually connects and activates many different sections and systems of the brain means that it is not so much effected by a desensitisation of one neuronal network or just one part of the brain.

If anything, as my capacity to enjoy and fully experience every other class of drug has declined due to overuse and the long-term effects of medications, LSD experiences have just gotten more enjoyable, more meaningful, and more transformative over time.

They can sometimes seem weaker when taken soon after other drugs affecting 5HTP2A. But waiting a couple more days and/or slightly increasing (ok, doubling) the dose makes each new trip better than almost all that preceded it.

Also, with an adequate dose LSD effectively punches through several neuroleptic drugs that should theoretically dimimish it (e.g Abilify and sub 200 mg doees of Seroquel).

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I'm just confused why you are taking it so often if you can go that far.

Doses below a ++++ experience can be pleasurable, even recreational. I trip for fun and not to 'see God' or whatever it is people do high doses for. I've been to the edge of the universe and back with LSD, I don't enjoy doing it often.

I simply do it for recreation now so I dose lower, I don't have any interest in becoming inanimate objects too much these days.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Doses below a ++++ experience can be pleasurable, even recreational. I trip for fun and not to 'see God' or whatever it is people do high doses for. I've been to the edge of the universe and back with LSD, I don't enjoy doing it often.

I simply do it for recreation now so I dose lower, I don't have any interest in becoming inanimate objects too much these days.

The importance of shits and giggles in life should never be underestimated. A good day should have at least one or the other, preferably both.

 

[EternalDreamer]

Perforated, a few questions: after discontinuing antidepressants, do you feel like your psychedelic experiences are more intense than before you ever first took an antidepressant? Your post gave me anxiety, because you said antidepressant medication (technically, you just spoke about antipsychotics) can permanently change the architecture of your brain. This makes me think I've permanently limited my ability to go as far as I can go on psychedelics by taking an antidepressant. When you write "waiting a couple more days and/or slightly increasing (ok, doubling) the dose makes each new trip better than almost all that preceded it", do you mean that your trips keep getting more and more intense?

Can anyone else also comment on whether their psychedelic effects were as intense after discontinuing antidepressant use as they were before ever having first taken an antidepressant?

I just can't stop worrying about this. I'm afraid I've permanently changed myself and prevented myself from seeing the higher plains. Every day is a struggle worrying about this.

 

[EternalDreamer]

I wanted to apologize to everyone here. The only barrier that I have is one that I chose to imagine for myself. It can go away if I just trust. I just had a very intense experience on marijuana that transported me farther than I needed to go. You all tried to give me words of help, but I struggled with giving trust in the process. These experiences just mean so much to me. I really just have to trust.

 

[Inovrmihd]

Hi. I just found this site today and apologize if I am not posting in the right place. I also apologize in advance for my relative ignorance and for any failure to use the correct terminology. I have tried several times to use substantial doses of psilocybin (under the supervision of someone with several years of experience, so I am confident it is not a quality control or quantity issue) and have not experienced any psychedelic effects whatsoever. I am also a long term user of various antidepressants. I have been working under the assumption that the medications I have been using blocked the psychedelic effects. My understanding is that psilocybin works on the 5ht2a receptor, and that SSRIs and seroquel can down regulate this receptor. My understanding was that this was temporary. I have read that Seroquel can remain in your system for longer than is indicated by the half life of the drug. My latest attempt to use psilocybin occurred after I had been off SSRIs for two months and off seroquel for three weeks. I take diazepam and zolpidem for sleep, but it was my understanding that these would not block the psychedelic effect. I have also recently been taking Baclofen and Pregabalin for pain. I have read anecdotal horror stories of combining Baclofin and psilocybin, but not that it would block the psychedelic effect. I am writing this question to try to determine if I have simply not been off the SSRIs and Seroquel for enough time for my receptors to upregulate (and if so, how much longer do I have to be off them), are my receptors permanently impaired, or am I wrong about the other drugs interactions? Just so I am clear, I have experienced no visual or any other psychedelic effects at all. Zero. I would be grateful for any informed thoughts on what is wrong with me.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hi @Inovrmihd. i am replying to your DM here since it’s basically the same question. First thing though, welcome to Bluelight and there is no need to apologise so much. We are not judgy are rule-obsessed here. If you make a mistake someone will probably let you know but so long as you observe the BLUA you can’t really go very wrong.

I am not an expert on psilocybin. Though I’ve eaten plenty of mushroom under full moons on SEAsian beaches. The mechanism of action of psilocybin is much more complicated than simply binding to 5HT2A receptors. It is thought that those receptors sit at the top of a kind of cascade of effects into other systems which involve the release of other neurotransmitters in ways that activate some parts of the brain and deactivate or reduce signaling to/from other areas. Not all receptors of each type are involved, just those in certain regions of the brain.

Seroquel can bind to the 5HT2A receptor and may diminish trips. However some people suggest that they can trip through seroquel but it is still effective for killing a trip, suggesting that the order you take it in matters. It also matters a lot on dosage, below about 150 mg (I think) seroquel acts primarily on antihistamine receptors and part of its trip killing properties may just be putting people to sleep.

There is also a huge amount of evidence that seroquel promotes neuroplasticy and neuronal growth in some regions of the brain, but I don’t know enough about which neutrons in which regions relative to the mechanism of action of psilocybin to know whether such changes could influence your susceptibility to tripping.

So basically, I have no answer, You could have low grade psilocybin. Or not taken enough. Or you may just need a few more weeks for your brain chemistry to find a new equilibrium without the influence of SSRIs and APs. If it were me I’d wait a month and then try again with a known batch of quality psilocybin. If that had no effect again, I’d wait another month and try some LSD which has a somewhat different mechanism of action though still involving the 5HT2A receptor at the start of the process.

 

[Inovrmihd]

Thanks for responding. I am certain it was not a quality/quantity issue. I don’t know who reads what on this site. Is there someone you would recommend specifically asking this question of?

 

[EternalDreamer]

Congratulations for resurrecting my anxiety. In all seriousness though, I'm pretty sure it's the benzos and only being off Seroquel, an anti-psychotic, for just three weeks. However, if you have psychotic tendencies, I am not going to just recommend going off that medicine. I imagine psychosis is not a fun place to be regardless how good psychedelics are.

 

[summertropicz36]

Big deal for no reason homie. I used to take Nortryptaline and that shit is horrible first off just as an opinion. I quit though due to a doctors approval and man Ive had about 7 to 8 good mushie trips lately in the past 2 months. My med use was about 3 to 4 years ago. And plus man when you think about it it's really personal opinion and choice if you decide to trip. It should cause no problems whatever. Just watch your dose and definitely have a good setting. The rest is up to the spirits in the night lol.

 

[simstim]

Thanks for responding. I am certain it was not a quality/quantity issue. I don’t know who reads what on this site. Is there someone you would recommend specifically asking this question of?

You didn't mention it, so I'll ask, what doses of mushrooms have you tried that you didn't trip on? Do you know what kind of mushrooms they were? (If not we will assume cubes since they are the most commonly cultivated for consumption)

Congratulations for resurrecting my anxiety. In all seriousness though, I'm pretty sure it's the benzos and only being off Seroquel, an anti-psychotic, for just three weeks. However, if you have psychotic tendencies, I am not going to just recommend going off that medicine. I imagine psychosis is not a fun place to be regardless how good psychedelics are.

You have nothing to worry about from a week of using nortriptyline. I promise. There is not a single antidepressant on the market that could cause the kind of permanent changes you are so unnecessarily worried about, and most especially not after just one week of use.

I like tricyclics. I think they are better antidepressants than SSRIs for sure. I was on imipramine for years (my favorite one, the original antidepressant "gold standard" by which the efficacy of all other antidepressants were compared). I've also taken doxepin, amitriptyline, nortriptyline, and clomipramine. (I've only ever been prescribed imipramine and doxepin).

I have tripped both while I was prescribed imipramine and since I discontinued it several years ago and psychedelics work just fine. Please don't even think about it. It's really just something in your mind and not something that is worth your time to obsess over.

Actually, if you have ever had obsessive thoughts like this about other topics you might want to ask your doctor if you can try clomipramine. That is what it's most commonly prescribed for. It's not bad for anxiety and sleep issues either.

Honestly I think nortriptyline is kind of stimulating to be used for anxiety. Typically the N-monomethyl TCAs usually increase brain norepinephrine far more than their N,N-dimethyl parent drugs (which are far more selective for serotonin) and can cause some people to feel more agitated.

If you ever get the itch to try TCAs again I would recommend imipramine, or if you are a constant worrier tell them that you are and say someone you know recommended clomipramine and it worked well for them. My friends brother in law was prescribed it and gave me a whole script once. I used it when I was stressed or when I needed to sleep.

Best of luck! Stop worrying!
Cheers!