Help! Antidepressant use and Psychedelics

[EternalDreamer]

I am paranoid that my past use of an antidepressants (a TCA, not an SSRI), called Nortriptyline, will prevent me from ever tripping on mushrooms again. It goes without saying that that possibility makes me incredibly sad. I stopped taking Nortriptyline for over 1.5 years, but I'm still terrified it may have completely changed me to being unable to have psychedelic experiences. I have NOT tried taking psychedelics since taking Nortriptyline, so I don't know if my concern is BS or not.

But I have read that antidepressants can sometimes cause long-term sexual problems even after discontinuing use. So, my concern is that this may also be the case for its inhibition of psychedelic experiences. That would be terrifying! I can't stop worrying about this possibility. I was prescribed it for anxiety, so please call me out if I am being ridiculous. I just don't like that I can never know for sure.

Does anyone who has stopped taking antidepressants (particularly, a TCA, or better yet, Nortriptyline) have any comment to make on whether they were able to have profound psychedelic experiences after discontinuing antidepressants? Am I completely worried about nothing here?

 

[Littana]

in short :yes, ur completely worried abt nothing

i know plenty of people whos been on various ad´s inc. nortrip. and all been good after taking it

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I was on amitriptyline for two months about two years ago. Once I was off it I had absolutely no issues experiencing the full effects of psychedelics again.

I was prescribed it for anxiety

Jees, what kinda batshit doctor are you seeing? My GP was shocked to learn I had been on a TCA, he said he stopped scripting them in the 70s due to adverse side-effect complaints from his patients.

 

[EternalDreamer]

in short :yes, ur completely worried abt nothing

i know plenty of people whos been on various ad´s inc. nortrip. and all been good after taking it

Littana, are you sure they took Nortriptyline? I'm confused how you know people who just disclose what meds they are taking. You must be really close to your friends for them to do that. Are you sure the person who had taken Nortriptyline was able to have a full psychedelic effect? Like, were they able to have the full-on ego death, time distortion, mystical experience, etc. from psychedelics?

Cream Gravy - Amitryptyline metabolizes into Nortriptyline, so I guess that's an okay proxy for me, but what do I know? I feel like I can't ever know. I don't know the long-term effects of these antidepressants. You know that antidepressants cause sexual side effects, right? Sometimes, that lingers even after discontinuing use. Why would that not be the case for the typical blunting effect on psychedelics reported by antidepressants? How do you know you were actually able to experience the full effects of psychedelics? Were you able to really get the ego death, time distortion, and mystical experience, etc. effects?

I'm terrified that a barrier has been created in my mind.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I'm confused how you know people who just disclose what meds they are taking. You must be really close to your friends for them to do that.

Errr... Idk about you but I know what meds all my friends and family are on. It's an active topic of discussion, especially since many of us suffer from similar ailments. Why would someone hide the fact that they're being treated for depression or anxiety? There is no shame in that.

You know that antidepressants cause sexual side effects, right?

Yes, it was one of the many side-effects I experienced. It was horrible, I became mean to my wife and we never had sex those two months. Shortly after discontinuation I was levelheaded again and once again arousable.

How do you know you were actually able to experience the full effects of psychedelics?

Because I had tripped hundreds of times prior and hundreds of times after and the effects are not any different. Now it probably got out of my system quickly because it was only two months, but it stands to reason that like any drug, eventually your body will clear it from the system.

Clearly whoever put you on this med isn't treating your anxiety effectively. You're worrying about stuff that 1) doesn't currently effect you, and 2) isn't something to be worried about at all.

 

[EternalDreamer]

Thanks Cream Gravy for your very helpful post. I am really absolutely terrified, so it means the world to me to get a thorough response like yours. I was given Nortriptyline, because I insisted upon a TCA, since TCAs (reportedly/supposedly) increase the effects of LSD, at least according to some research paper. But "increase" is used very awkwardly... the combination was reported to not be a favorable "increase" and created more of a "fugue" state. I was only on the TCA for less than a week, but I don't know what it did to me during that period long-term. I'm terrified.

The only thing left hanging with your response is... How were you able to trip hundreds of times before & hundreds of times after? That doesn't seem psychologically possible and makes me think you only took very light doses. Did you ever take the heroic doses? I wouldn't think you would be taking psychedelics that many times if you went THAT far.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Littana, are you sure they took Nortriptyline? I'm confused how you know people who just disclose what meds they are taking.

I know many people who confide in me what meds they are taking. Friends, work acquaintances, random people on the internet... A lot of people open up when they think I'm some drug pharmacology and mental health genius (I might be.... maybe... not the point).

There are also some good friends I have that refuse to talk about it at all, even after I know for sure they take meds... idk why medications/mental health are so taboo for some people

I also had a friend who was on TCAs. Amitriptyline wasn't that uncommon in the late 90s/2000s, my highschool gf was on it.

The only thing left hanging with your response is... How were you able to trip hundreds of times before & hundreds of times after? That doesn't seem psychologically possible and makes me think you only took very light doses. Did you ever take the heroic doses? I wouldn't think you would be taking psychedelics that many times if you went THAT far.

I've also tripped literally hundreds of times... I really lost count. And been on nearly every antidepressant and several antipsychotics, bipolar meds including lithium, etc...

I mean at one point I was smoking DMT 3x per day, every day... and LSD routinely about every 10 days for years. I don't recommend it. I ended up with permanent mental conditions...

 

[Cream Gravy?]

How were you able to trip hundreds of times before & hundreds of times after?

I've taken anywhere from barely-perceptible to 'heroic' doses before and after. Mostly lower doses of LSD or psilacetin (4-aco-dmt) but every once in a while (maybe twice or thrice a year) I dose very high, in conjunction with a BZD usually. Over the course of 2020 I tripped on average twice a week or more, and generally that was with psilacetin between 10-30mg each time. And the years before I was on amitriptyline for two months, I had tripped hundreds of times over the course of eight or so years, so... plenty of time to get in a lot of trips.

 

[RomanJ]

I took DMT a few times last year with no issues, I was on a SNRI at the time.

 

[EternalDreamer]

Cream Gravy, I may be wrong, but I think you might be missing something, especially if you are taking a benzo during it! Tolerance of psychedelics lasts for at least a solid two weeks (that's why they are known for being non-addictive) and then benzos cancel out the trip almost entirely. If you are tripping twice a week or more, you almost certainly are not getting the full effect that you would get if you just took at least a two week break.

Have you ever taken at least a "clean break" from drugs and then taken a psychedelic? How did your psychedelic effects differ after fully discontinuing antidepressants vs. before taking antidepressants - when (and this is critical) taking a clean break for both scenarios to control for the effect of other drugs? If you are mixing so many drugs together before and after, including adding benzos to the mix, it's hard to say what is the cause for your reported similarity.

This is a fairly obvious question I'm following up with, but I'm sure you have a good response to clear up the confusion and I don't want to make any assumptions.

 

[Littana]

ehm.... i dont even know what to say.... well... id start with thx for @Cream Gravy? for answering for me..

benzos dont cancel a trip out....

being that anxious and paranoid.... i dont think anything we say or what was told to u in 2020 will change ur thinking.... im not sure if its good idea for u to take psychedelics... but the only way to find out is to try....

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I think you might be missing something, especially if you are taking a benzo during it! Tolerance of psychedelics lasts for at least a solid two weeks (that's why they are known for being non-addictive) and then benzos cancel out the trip almost entirely.

I beg to differ. I am prescribed alprazolam for IBS cramping issues and at this point I don't even notice benzos; even before I was prescribed a BZD, I would throw in a 10mg valium or the like on strong acid trips, they do not 'cancel' the trip IME. Also, psilacetin is odd with tolerance, I can take it several times in a week and have a minimal loss in perceived effect.

Have you ever taken at least a "clean break" from drugs and then taken a psychedelic?

Yes. I hadn't tripped, smoked weed, nor taken any opioids for several months prior to taking LSD at Epcot in June. The effects became so strong so quick that I started panicking (being in public around a bunch of fat gross people and the like) and my wife had to sit me on a bench and let me cope with the come-up so we could move on. I had been off all psychedelics and ADs for quite some time, but I did take alprazolam daily as required for my gut.

How did your psychedelic effects differ after fully discontinuing antidepressants vs. before taking antidepressants - when (and this is critical) taking a clean break for both scenarios to control for the effect of other drugs?

They didn't differ at all. I also forgot, in high school before I ever tripped, I was on Prozac for two years. A year after discontinuation I had my first LSD trip, and it was intense; ego-death, looping, time distortion, telepathy, the whole package.

I can't physically take a 'clean' break from BZDs currently due to my IBS cramping issues. I would starve to death (literally) if I discontinued use entirely so I can't do a controlled experiment in regards to that. Suffice to say that I don't notice any difference in my trips compared to before I was put on alprazolam.

It sounds to me (from my outside perspective) like you have pretty extreme anxiety issues if you're still worried that you'll never be able to trip again; further, if you have this much anxiety about whether you can trip or not, you might want to focus on addressing that anxiety before you consider tripping again.

I'm not the only person here who has been on ADs and tripped afterwards. I believe your concerns are completely unfounded.

 

[EternalDreamer]

Now, I'm extremely worried.

I'm worried I've become cognitively imprisoned by people who want to keep me away from the truth. That people have prevented me and you from seeing as far as we could have possibly seen. This is an outrage and a complete violation of informed consent.

You just mentioned "in high school before I ever tripped, I was on Prozac for two years". In other words, there was never a period where you took a psychedelic before taking an antidepressant, so you don't really have any way to tell whether or not it did have a long-term effect on you. So, unfortunately, I can't use you as an example. I just don't know if you are going as far as you could have possibly gone had you never taken the antidepressant. Especially, when you are using psychedelics so frequently, it makes me think that you never really had that powerful of a trip, perhaps because antidepressants permanently changed you. If you had a powerful trip, you probably wouldn't repeat use multiple times a week, month, or possibly in years. Although, everyone is different...

Do you know anyone who took a psychedelic prior to taking any antidepressants? And then took an antidepressant, discontinued it, and then took a psychedelic? And how their experiences differed? Particularly, a TCA? Can anyone on this forum speak to this?!

I also haven't yet heard a good rebuttal to my question that antidepressants have caused long-term sexual side effects to people after discontinuing use and why this would be any different to their effect on psychedelic effects. Seriously, why would it be any different? Does anyone really know?

Needless to say, this is an extremely big deal, and we need a resolution.

 

[EternalDreamer]

Here is a study on one theory behind how post-SSRI sexual syndrome can happen:

Csoka and Szyf observed that increased binding and stimulation of 5-hydroxytryptamine receptor 1A (5HT1A) by serotonin caused downregulation of these receptors and potentiated serotonin transmission. Long-term usage of SSRIs is hypothesized to cause persistent downregulation of 5HT1A (even after discontinuation of SSRIs) by epigenetic changes in the form of increased expression of methyl binding proteins MeCP2 and MBD1. This leads to more production of HDAC2 mRNA and lowers the production of histone H3 deacetylase. These epigenetic changes were observed in three areas of the brain: the frontal cortex, the dentate gyrus of the hippocampus, and the caudate-putamen. MDB1, MeCP2, and HDAC2 expression was noted to be induced by fluoxetine. Popova and Amstislavskaya indicated that this downregulation and desensitization of 5HT1A are involved in the regulation of sexual motivation, and thus proposed this as a theory for PSSD.

DEFINE_ME

Since the 5HT1A receptor is one of the receptors associated with psychedelic experience, I don't see why it's all that unreasonable for me to be worried that there's something analogous going on with how it could effect psychedelic experiences. It's well reported that SSRIs blunt the effect of psychedelics. They also blunt the effect of sexuality, partly because they downregulate 5HT1A. So, if the negative sexual side effects can linger after discontinuing antidepressant use, why can't that also be the case for their blunting of psychedelic effects?

How, in any way, is this not a reasonable concern???????????

 

[n3ophy7e]

Here is a study on one theory behind how post-SSRI sexual syndrome can happen:

DEFINE_ME

Since the 5HT1A receptor is one of the receptors associated with psychedelic experience, I don't see why it's all that unreasonable for me to be worried that there's something analogous going on with how it could effect psychedelic experiences. It's well reported that SSRIs blunt the effect of psychedelics. They also blunt the effect of sexuality, partly because they downregulate 5HT1A. So, if the negative sexual side effects can linger after discontinuing antidepressant use, why can't that also be the case for their blunting of psychedelic effects?

How, in any way, is this not a reasonable concern???????????

You really are freaking yourself out for no reason. I've been on antidepressants my entire adult life (different types, an SSRI, an NRI, a DRI and currently an SNRI) and have had a very solid, healthy relationship with all kinds of psychedelics including mushrooms. Amitriptyline is not an SSRI so there is no point comparing it to SSRIs.

I feel that I must point out that you have been prescribed amitriptyline for a reason, for your anxiety (although it does seem like a very odd choice of antidepressant for your doctor to prescribe....). Your priority should be to let the medication do its job and to get your anxiety under control, THEN think about tripping, not the other way around.

 

[EternalDreamer]

I appreciate the assurances from everyone. They do mean something. Every time you do, it brings a big smile on my face, but then, a few seconds later, I become aware that there are some unfortunate holes in what you're saying. The big one is that everyone here appears to take a cornucopia of drugs, does so frequently, and never actually took a psyche before taking an antidepressant (particularly, Nortriptyline), and thus has no "control" comparison.

It certainly does appear that I am freaking myself for no reason, but I also think I am raising a good point about a risk for antidepressants that simply hasn't up until now been addressed. Every time I raise this point, I am just dismissed that I have anxiety. Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that I'm not raising a good point. If antidepressants can cause persistent downregulation of 5HT1A receptor that causes long-term sexual side effects after discontinuing antidepressants, I don't see why it's not a concern that it may also long-term blunt the side effects of psychedelics.

To all who have commented here in this forum:

1. Did you ever take a psychedelic before first taking antidepressants?

2. Regardless of your answer to the first question, did you ever have a psychedelic experience after discontinuing antidepressant use for at least one month where you experienced a combination of the following: time disappeared/lost meaning/dilated to "moments of eternity"; revelatory information was imparted upon you that can't be understood in this-worldly domain; and that you felt like you went too far and wouldn't want to go any farther in this lifetime even if there were a drug where you could go farther?

3. How did your most intense experience on psychedelics before your first antidepressant use compare to your most intense experience on psychedelics after your first but then discontinued antidepressant use? Based on your experience, do you think antidepressants can permanently limit your psychedelic experiences after discontinuing antidepressant use?

 

[Cream Gravy?]

time disappeared/lost meaning/dilated to "moments of eternity"; revelatory information was imparted upon you that can't be understood in this-worldly domain; and that you felt like you went too far and wouldn't want to go any farther in this lifetime even if there were a drug where you could go farther?

You're probably going to dismiss this, but I experienced all of those things on my first LSD trip and several more well after. My first trip was so intense and upending that my friends and I (they'd never been on any ADs at all) thought we were perma-fried in essence. We were communicating telepathically, literally... how much deeper can an acid trip go when you don't even need words any longer?

 

[Bicycle Tripper]

1. Did you ever take a psychedelic before first taking antidepressants?

2. Regardless of your answer to the first question, did you ever have a psychedelic experience after discontinuing antidepressant use for at least one month where you experienced a combination of the following: time disappeared/lost meaning/dilated to "moments of eternity"; revelatory information was imparted upon you that can't be understood in this-worldly domain; and that you felt like you went too far and wouldn't want to go any farther in this lifetime even if there were a drug where you could go farther?

3. How did your most intense experience on psychedelics before your first antidepressant use compare to your most intense experience on psychedelics after your first but then discontinued antidepressant use? Based on your experience, do you think antidepressants can permanently limit your psychedelic experiences after discontinuing antidepressant use?

1. I took LSD, 2cb and DOM a few times before I started Sertraline.

2. I have had psychedelic experiences after being off antidepressants for more than a month (it was about three before I took anything). There was some time dilation as is fairly normal for psychedelic experiences but not quite what you describe. I'm not quite sure what you mean by revelatory information so I would say I have not experienced that.

3. I didn't have quite as high dosages and I had not tried DMT before going on anti depressants so my experiences after discontinuing anti depressants have mostly been more intense, depends how much I've taken and of what though.

Overall I would agree with other posters in this thread, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

 

[EternalDreamer]

Great, thanks, these responses are very helpful. I would like to collect more. These past few days have become very hard for me. I am feeling down, because I am worried that I have been permanently held back from seeing the higher plains, because I took a TCA (Nortriptyline) for 7 days. Cream Gravy, it does seem like you have gone far. I'm just confused why you are taking it so often if you can go that far. These kind of experiences are overwhelming, to say the least.

Can anyone else who has taken antidepressants please complete my survey????:

1. Did you ever take a psychedelic before first taking antidepressants?

2. Regardless of your answer to the first question, did you ever have a psychedelic experience after discontinuing antidepressant use for at least one month where you experienced a combination of the following: time disappeared/lost meaning/dilated to "moments of eternity"; revelatory information was imparted upon you that can't be understood in this-worldly domain; and that you felt like you went too far and wouldn't want to go any farther in this lifetime even if there were a drug where you could go farther?

3. How did your most intense experience on psychedelics before your first antidepressant use compare to your most intense experience on psychedelics after your first but then discontinued antidepressant use? Which antidepressants did you take? Based on your experience, do you think antidepressants can permanently limit your psychedelic experiences after discontinuing antidepressant use?

 

[G_Chem]

Everyone takes psychedelics for different reasons, and different frequencies. I’ve always felt psychedelic tolerance is fairly overplayed as well.

Ill trip for a couple days in a row then not touch it for a couple months. Each psychedelic and empathogen is different too in how that feels.

Mushrooms I can’t eat multiple days in a row, but LSD I can.

I think your stressing out way too much about things you’ll never got a solid answer on. Your 10 day situation will be nothing like any other posters here.

All you can do is experiment and try. If you lost it all you can do is accept what you can’t change.

-GC