• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Anti-addictive agents

Individuals with sexual compulsions typically do not show evidence of tolerance or withdrawal.

I definitely have. What do you call it when somebody has to spend longer and longer on porn to get the same effect. Or watching harder porn, because I can't get an erection.

Anyway, I don't know if the drug tolerance concept crosses-over entirely, but I was speaking to my friend about the transexual thing. I have realised that this actually is not a part of my sexuality.

There is nothing particularly significant about it. The problem is that everybody I have spoken to is trying to convince me that I must be partially gay.

This was escalating and progressing and the next thing was transexuals. Come on guys, think about? Even if you "repress homosexual urges" (taking that theory for a second), you do not get a euphorically compulsive urge that you absolutely cannot stop.

Why does that list not have Naltrexone on it? There are a few case reports of it. I think it is a matter of time before it does become clear that this is definitely an addiction. When I emailed him, Dr Kafka said: "DSM5- required more empirical data. Let's now worry about that now. Get the help you need". Kind man.

That empirical data will come. Now, I just sit and wait, waiting to see my doctor. When will it come :(
 
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/sex/2016/07/


can-therapists-officially-diagnose-sexual-addiction/

Anyway, I will leave the debate now, to others. I am just interested in getting the help that I need. I am still on the hunt for ibogaine analogues. I think that would be effective.

Why is it so important to determine whether hypersexuality is an addiction? Reid believes it may be more of a research issue than one that has clinical merit, at least for now. “For the patient who comes in after his third job loss because he can’t stop masturbating to porn at work, he doesn’t care what we call it; he just wants to know how to change and function more adaptively,” Reid says.

But determining if common brain pathways are responsible for sexual compulsion and drug addiction could lead to more effective ways of treating sexual desires that start to interfere with daily life. If sexual addiction is similar to cocaine addiction, for instance, the same medications or talk therapies might be useful and the same brain areas could be targeted for treatment.

From another article...can link if asked. This sums up the way I feel about it.
 
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/sex/2016/07/


can-therapists-officially-diagnose-sexual-addiction/

Anyway, I will leave the debate now, to others. I am just interested in getting the help that I need. I am still on the hunt for ibogaine analogues. I think that would be effective.



From another article...can link if asked. This sums up the way I feel about it.
Don't you actually want a treatment that works? The second part of that article you posted shows very clearly why it is important to properly understand this illness. Maybe it is closer in spectrum to bulemia or OCD and the treatments for addiction aren't appropriate and could make some patients worse.

I forgot to respond to your other question about potential problems taking 18-MC and other ibogaine analogs that are in development. Have you ever heard of this drug? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIA_10-2474

Read about what happened in that trial. If you had a severe adverse reaction and had to be hospitalized (which does happen with analogs) then further clinical trials would stop, and might never resume, with 18-MC.

If I remember correctly, there also was person who used to post on Bluelight who died after taking URB-597 due to chromium contamination. Just last week, an article was published about a batch of MT-45 that was contaminated with a nitrogen mustard, which is a highly cytotoxic chemical.
 
Last edited:
If you had a severe adverse reaction and had to be hospitalized (which does happen with analogs) then further clinical trials would stop, and might never resume, with 18-MC.

Do you work for Big Pharma? If I die from 18-MC, changes are nobody will even know about it. Just you and the internet. I think that's a poor reason personally, but the adverse reaction is a possibility.

But, people do desperate things when they are absolutely completely ready and desperate. I don't know you or your life and don't want to be offensive, but perhaps you haven't been in such a dilemma before. I am willing to try anything and im tired of waiting around.

EDIT: If thngs weren't so completely fucked up, I do get where you are coming from. I know you told me, but I can now clearly see that you are involved in research. You remind me of myself when I was well - writing style and critical approach.
 
18-MC is desperately needed by millions of people with substance abuse disorders. If there is a 0.00001% chance that you have an adverse reaction that halts development, from a utilitarianist point of view, that's not worth it.

Also, it should go without saying that there is normally a progression of treatments when treating an illness. Conservative treatments come first - meaning something like SSRIs -> antipsychotics. Rather than custom synthesis of 18-MC -> SSRIs -> antipsychotics (lol)

The general public typically goes "ewwwww antipsychotics" but I personally think that they are the reason why a lot of people are able to lead relatively normal lives.
 
I am not touching SSRIs. I was on them for years and they did nothing. I know they will offer it again - I am not taking it.

Why would an antipsychotic be useful? That's not the kind of medication that I would want to be on long-term.

There again, this has got complicated by the fact that I DID take 0.5g ibogaine TA. Now, we have a problem here, because as I said, this is literally the worst possible thing you could ever take if you have DP/DR. In fact, it's like tailor-made to fuck things up. I emailed a top researcher in schizophrenia at a top university, and he said to counter the ibogaine you could try lamotrigine to blunt the effect of an NMDA antagonist, naltrexone because ibo is a kappa opioid agaonist, and possibly risperidone for 5-HT2A antagonism.

Complicated. Also, my psychiatrist at present is not a neuropharmacologist, so they don't have a clue. You guys might be scientists, IDK, but I think you know more than them in this respect.

Now I do regret the ibogaine, but if I hadn't of done it, I would have been straight back to the prostitutes again. I felt that I needed to knock off the craving (if that is what it was). My DR came on before I took ibo, but I don't know what extent it caused DP and the dreaded "blank mind" variant of dp - in short, it's where you have no inner monologue, numb emotions, can't visualise things with your eyes shut. Like your mind just turns off.

Side issue: more needs to be done to help sexual compulsives. Nobody gives a fuck about them. And I feel completely screwed right now because of this whole complex situation.
 
Antipsychotics may have some use in treating "behavioral addictions" that develop with dopaminergic meds. Oftentimes behavioral addictions develop with the use of dopaminergic medications like L-DOPA and dopamine agonists (hypersexuality, compulsive shopping and gambling).

But it would probably be at a pretty low dose, not like that used to treat schizophrenia or psychosis. Anecdotally antipsychotics can reduce libido and help with obsessive thoughts, although it's not like that is the only reaction.

The atypical antipsychotics (for example risperidone) can also help with depression. Once again there is a big difference between 1-2mg of risperidone and 8mg of risperidone.

There are also mood stabilizers like Depakote. I believe I read a case report where Depakote was used successfully in dopaminergic med induced hypersexuality.

Anyways, just something to talk to your doc about. It's not like your only option is to pursue custom synthesis of 18-MC.

Also, if you received zero effects from SSRIs then it's possible you should've been on a different one at a different dose.
 
I am not touching SSRIs. I was on them for years and they did nothing. I know they will offer it again - I am not taking it.

Why would an antipsychotic be useful? That's not the kind of medication that I would want to be on long-term.

I'll also point out that I've heard a lot of this sort of stuff in my life from people with relatively mild conditions and the overall vibe I get from the person is "I'm really suffering, this disease/condition is terrible, but oh no I won't try that treatment"

Whereas the people with severe conditions are like "I don't care if I get permanent sexual dysfunction from SSRIs as long as my depression improves" or "I don't care if I have no colon and crap in a bag the rest of my life as long as I don't die from ulcerative colitis and my spine stops disintegrating from the prednisone"

In that sense, we can always look at people who are worse off and be thankful for whatever we still have left of our physical and mental health.

I know this sounds harsh, and I'm not saying this is genuinely a cure for whatever condition someone has, but we may better appreciate whatever quality of life we have left.
 
I guess one problem for me it that one of the most important hallmarks of addiction is tolerance and withdrawal. Individuals with sexual compulsions typically do not show evidence of tolerance or withdrawal.

The argument you seem to be making is that induction of ΔFosB is somehow specifically linked to addiction. But ΔFosB is also induced in accumbens by stress (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15564575), by natural rewards like exercise (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021978/), by environmental enrichment (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24686135), and by sucrose drinking and normal sexual behavior (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18842886). In fact, chronic exposure to most stimuli seems to induce ΔFosB expression (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24259563). So ΔFosB expression probably merely reflects striatal plasticity, which occurs in many behavioral states other than addiction.

I don't really get your argument about diagnostic criteria; if you think that diagnostic criteria based on clinical observations are worthless, then what is the rationale for classifying the disorder as a sex addiction? You could just as easily make the argument that we shouldn't classify this disorder at all until we understand the psychopathology of the illness. The reason why diagnosis based on clinical observations is useful is because it allows you to differentiate patients in a way that predicts treatment response. So we can make the prediction that patient A should be treated with an antidepressant whereas patient B should be treated with an antidepressant, even though we know nothing about the underlying psychopathology. The is basically a fundamental tenet of modern Western medicine.

The other problem in my mind is that the concept of sex addiction isn't based on some objective study of patients. It started in the early 1980s as an outgrowth of 12 step programs for other disorders. Patients suffering from this illness have never really been studied, so it seems premature to classify the illness as an addiction until there is actually evidence one way or the other. You may be convinced that is an addiction, but I, and most other people, want actual, conclusive evidence showing that is the best way to classify this disorder.

ΔFosB is not a "bad" protein. A normal, healthy brain has low levels of ΔFosB (33 kilodalton isoform) expression in the nucleus accumbens at all times. ΔFosB accumulates when it becomes phospho-ΔFosB (35-37 kilodalton isoforms), because it has a longer half-life than any other naturally occurring protein in the brain, excluding some which occur in experimentally-induced neuronal lesions. IIRC, the 33 kD ΔFosB isoform is phosphorylated by Cdk5.

I didn't say the diagnostic criteria are worthless. I said they lack validity. In any event, addiction and dependence/withdrawal arise through distinct biomolecular processes, so the presence of withdrawal symptoms don't actually have much of a bearing on whether one has an addiction or not. Dependence can occur with drugs that are not addictive, so the presence of dependence is not necessary and sufficient for an addiction.

ΔFosB overexpression IS necessary and sufficient for much of the structural, functional, and behavioral plasticity that occurs in an addiction.

The behavioral plasticity that is mediated by accumbal ΔFosB overexpression is the amplification of incentive salience attribution to primary reinforcers (specifically, the addictive stimulus) and conditioned reinforcers (i.e., behavioral and drug cues). To my knowledge, it is not directly or indirectly responsible for the impairment of inhibitory control. It indirectly facilitates (via the amplification of incentive salience), but is not responsible for, the establishment of conditioned reinforcers of an addictive stimulus.
 
Last edited:
ΔFosB is not a "bad" protein. A normal, healthy brain has low levels of ΔFosB (33 kilodalton isoform) expression in the nucleus accumbens at all times. ΔFosB accumulates when it becomes phospho-ΔFosB (35-37 kilodalton isoforms), because it has a longer half-life than any other naturally occurring protein in the brain, excluding some which occur in experimentally-induced neuronal lesions. IIRC, the 33 kD ΔFosB isoform is phosphorylated by Cdk5.

That is exactly my point. In your post, you made the argument that "Compulsive sexual behavior is an addiction because it involves all the pathophysiological hallmarks of an addiction [including]...the induction of ΔFosB in D1-type medium spiny neurons in the nucleus accumbens)." That makes it sound like it is possible to classify syndromes as an addiction based on the presence of absence of ΔFosB overexpression in accumbens, and that is just not true. The induction ΔFosB in cases of compulsive sex behavior doesn't establish one way or the other whether we are dealing with an addiction. Studying ΔFosB expression in NAcc is useful to understand the psychopathology of addiction, but it is not a useful diagnostic criteria because many individuals who are not suffering from an addiction will also overexpress ΔFosB in NAcc.

I didn't say the diagnostic criteria are worthless. I said they lack validity.

While there are certainly some problems with the validity of certain DSM diagnostic criteria, that doesn't apply to every illness in the DSM. Depression and Schizophrenia are certainly problematic in terms of psychopathology, but other disorders in the DSM, such as Parkinson's and Huntington's disease, have clear and well-defined psychopathology. It should be instructive that the RDoC initiative has not been extended to addiction.

In any event, addiction and dependence/withdrawal arise through distinct biomolecular processes, so the presence of withdrawal symptoms don't actually have much of a bearing on whether one has an addiction or not. Dependence can occur with drugs that are not addictive, so the presence of dependence is not necessary and sufficient for an addiction.

One of the established criteria for addiction is the presence of withdrawal. For example, see the discussion in http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v13/n4/full/nrn3212.html
 
That is exactly my point. In your post, you made the argument that "Compulsive sexual behavior is an addiction because it involves all the pathophysiological hallmarks of an addiction [including]...the induction of ΔFosB in D1-type medium spiny neurons in the nucleus accumbens)." That makes it sound like it is possible to classify syndromes as an addiction based on the presence of absence of ΔFosB overexpression in accumbens, and that is just not true. The induction ΔFosB in cases of compulsive sex behavior doesn't establish one way or the other whether we are dealing with an addiction. Studying ΔFosB expression in NAcc is useful to understand the psychopathology of addiction, but it is not a useful diagnostic criteria because many individuals who are not suffering from an addiction will also overexpress ΔFosB in NAcc.
People without an addiction will have low levels of ΔFosB expression in the NAcc. They will not overexpress (i.e., express abormally high levels of) that protein unless they have an addiction. A brain biopsy to measure ΔFosB expression in the NAcc would be a useful biologically-based diagnostic test for addiction, but no one in their right mind would/should consent to having their nucleus accumbens biopsied.


One of the established criteria for addiction is the presence of withdrawal.
Re: Diagnostic criteria are not based upon pathophysiological evidence. In any event, substance use disorders are not synonymous with addiction. Addiction is a component of an SUD, just like dependence.


  • Volkow ND, Koob GF, McLellan AT (January 2016). "Neurobiologic Advances from the Brain Disease Model of Addiction". N. Engl. J. Med. 374 (4): 363–371. doi:10.1056/NEJMra1511480. PMID 26816013.
"Substance-use disorder: A diagnostic term in the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) referring to recurrent use of alcohol or other drugs that causes clinically and functionally significant impairment, such as health problems, disability, and failure to meet major responsibilities at work, school, or home. Depending on the level of severity, this disorder is classified as mild, moderate, or severe.
Addiction: A term used to indicate the most severe, chronic stage of substance-use disorder, in which there is a substantial loss of self-control, as indicated by compulsive drug taking despite the desire to stop taking the drug. In the DSM-5, the term addiction is synonymous with the classification of severe substance-use disorder."​
 
Last edited:
Naltrexone, lamictal, and even memantine seem like a good combo and all relatively side effect free, with an anti-dopaminergenic neuroleptic in the short/medium term to kill libido/reward. Just don't feel like you've failed if you "relapse" on them and stop taking them, there are no magic bullets and it will take time to rewire your brain plus work on your end. Find something else to do when the urges hit, like go exercise, or find a hobby. And I'd advise against masturbating or sex for a very long time, and when you feel like you are ready again go slow and keep it vanilla.

And not to derail the thread, but there's nothing "natural" about the human sex drive as I believe d1nach(apologies if it was someone else) was describing it. We have an extremely powerful sex drive as an evolutionary trait to ensure the prosperity of our species, but it is a relic of centuries, even millennia back. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with indulging, if I had any 'religion' it would probably be hedonism in the classical sense, but said behavior is only "normal" if we deem it so, it definitely isn't natural nor, doesn't help us to survive or propegate, and surely wasn't the driving force nor pupose for said evolutionary traits.
 
I know this sounds harsh, and I'm not saying this is genuinely a cure for whatever condition someone has, but we may better appreciate whatever quality of life we have left.

It's extremely hard to do this when genuinely, everything I did care for, and my entire life has been ripped apart. Death seems like an attractive option, but the most ideal outcome would be if I could have my old life back and none of this would have happened. When I say, I have suffered, I mean it. Even though I was on SSRIs (which I don't like) for major depression, I would happily have my worst major depression back again for this. No doubt. Any mild faith I had in spiritual stuff has been eradicated as well so that doesn't help. I barely get through the day, my only way has been to imprison myself within my own room, and remove materials that could be used in suicide.

I read online article about aguy who had severe PTSD from a bad bus crash. Try having over 365 days of continuous trauma. There is more on here that I haven't even told you about. Im not taking anything away from the PTSD guy, but I believe that if I wrote my full story out (which I plan to do on paper for myself), it would absolutely get published. Hell, I might do it anyway, as a means of helping people. Anyway, I had to write that.

But it would probably be at a pretty low dose, not like that used to treat schizophrenia or psychosis. Anecdotally antipsychotics can reduce libido and help with obsessive thoughts, although it's not like that is the only reaction.

I think anything that could reduce obsessive thoughts would be useful. Maybe they could pair it with naltrexone as well? Or other medications too.

Also, if you received zero effects from SSRIs then it's possible you should've been on a different one at a different dose.

SSRI stopped my suicidal ideation during depression but it zombie'd me. Eventually, I beat major depression through studying, exercise, pushing myself socially and nofap. I was doing nofap for a year and a half without any warning or worry that I would be hauled off to a transexual escort. About the time after that happened, I couldn't exercise as well and haven't been able to go back to the gym until now. I had to have an operation with long recovery time and chronic pain. Only now, are both like 80 per cent better.

I tired Paroxetine in the summer for a bit but it enhanced the effect of everything appearing brighter than usual in my DR. (and I have heard the withdrawals from long-term Paxil can be brutal).
 
People without an addiction will have low levels of ΔFosB expression in the NAcc. They will not overexpress (i.e., express abormally high levels of) that protein unless they have an addiction. A brain biopsy to measure ΔFosB expression in the NAcc would be a useful biologically-based diagnostic test for addiction, but no one in their right mind would/should consent to having their nucleus accumbens biopsied
That is not true at all. ΔFosB expression in accumbens increases in non-addictive states when there is striatal plasticity or stress.
There are many studies showing this, but here are three:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15564575
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24259563
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22521816

I would love to read about studies that show that accumbens ΔFosB is ONLY ever overexpressed in response to addiction.
Re: Diagnostic criteria are not based upon pathophysiological evidence. In any event, substance use disorders are not synonymous with addiction. Addiction is a component of an SUD, just like dependence.


  • Volkow ND, Koob GF, McLellan AT (January 2016). "Neurobiologic Advances from the Brain Disease Model of Addiction". N. Engl. J. Med. 374 (4): 363–371. doi:10.1056/NEJMra1511480. PMID 26816013.
"Substance-use disorder: A diagnostic term in the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) referring to recurrent use of alcohol or other drugs that causes clinically and functionally significant impairment, such as health problems, disability, and failure to meet major responsibilities at work, school, or home. Depending on the level of severity, this disorder is classified as mild, moderate, or severe.
Addiction: A term used to indicate the most severe, chronic stage of substance-use disorder, in which there is a substantial loss of self-control, as indicated by compulsive drug taking despite the desire to stop taking the drug. In the DSM-5, the term addiction is synonymous with the classification of severe substance-use disorder."​

Seppi, the logic in that passage above makes no sense. In the post above, you wrote "In any event, substance use disorders are not synonymous with addiction." Then, in the same post, you quoted text that read " In the DSM-5, the term addiction is synonymous with the classification of severe substance-use disorder."

Do you understand how contradictory that is?

The above text is a general description of the concept of addiction, not a specific list of the criteria. It makes sense that only the worst substance use disorder cases would suffer from an addiction. The DSM has combined dependence and addiction into SUD, so there has to be some flexibility to diagnose individuals who are dependent but not addicted in the classical sense. But the worst cases will match all the criteria, which would also fit with the classical criteria for addiction.

A good way to prove your point would be to actually cite articles discussing how there are addictions that do no contain a withdrawal component, because that would serve as good evidence. You have made two sets of claims here but haven't bothered to present evidence.
 
Last edited:
Could the D2 blocking effect of the antipsychotic mediate its anti-addictive benefits? Or just from lowering the libido in general?
 
Seppi, the logic in that passage above makes no sense. In the post above, you wrote "In any event, substance use disorders are not synonymous with addiction." Then, in the same post, you quoted text that read " In the DSM-5, the term addiction is synonymous with the classification of severe substance-use disorder."

Do you understand how contradictory that is? The entire criteria for addiction does not necessarily have to be present for a diagnosis of substance abuse disorder. The DSM has combined dependence and addiction, so there has to be some flexibility to diagnose individuals who are dependent but not addicted in the classical sense. But the worst cases will match all the criteria, which would also fit with the classical criteria for addiction.

"Substance use disorder" and "addiction" are not interchangeable/synonymous terms, but "severe substance use disorder" and "addiction" are. There is no contradiction in this statement. Read the review for context.

That is not true at all. ΔFosB expression in accumbens increases in non-addictive states when there is striatal plasticity or stress.
There are many studies showing this, but here are three:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15564575
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24259563
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22521816

I would love to read about studies that show that accumbens ΔFosB is ONLY ever overexpressed in response to addiction.


WRT
ΔFosB, none of the 3 studies that you mentioned even hint that exposure to non-addictive stimuli induces ΔFosB overexpression. Those papers only mention the term "overexpression" in the context of viral vector-mediated gene (i.e., ΔFosB) transfer.

A fairly good, but not fully comprehensive, review on the role of ΔFosB in addiction is PMID 25083822. I'd suggest that you read the entire review to gain a foundational understanding on the significance of that transcription factor in addiction, since you seem to be off-handedly discounting it.

Also, "This indicates that ΔFosB is both necessary and sufficient for many of the changes wrought in the brain by chronic drug exposure." This is part of what I was referring to in my previous post. This "necessary and sufficient" clause is a logical equivalence, meaning that ΔFosB overexpression that occurs by means of any mechanism induces addictive plasticity AND such plasticity never occurs without it.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't take 18-MC, even if I had it. It was NMDA antagonist activity, and that would be no good for me with DP/DR. In theory, it seems that 18-MAC would be better.
 

"Substance use disorder" and "addiction" are not interchangeable/synonymous terms, but "severe substance use disorder" and "addiction" are. There is no contradiction in this statement. Read the review for context.

So what then is the useful reason for pointing that out? -- what confuses me is how providing that info helps you to make a point. We are discussing addiction, so if "severe substance use disorder" and addiction are synonymous, then what you should look up is the criteria for severe substance use disorder. That is what I looked up. The entire point of this discussion is what are the criteria for addiction, and those can be found in many articles about addiction, or by consulting the DSM-V and looking up the criteria for "severe substance use disorder". For someone to be diagnosed with severe substance use disorder, one of the criteria is experiencing withdrawal. I'm just not following how pointing out the difference between addiction and low severity SUD (which is what used to be called dependence) really addresses this discussion in a useful way.


[

WRT
ΔFosB, none of the 3 studies that you mentioned even hint that exposure to non-addictive stimuli induces ΔFosB overexpression. Those papers only mention the term "overexpression" in the context of viral vector-mediated gene (i.e., ΔFosB) transfer.

That is a completely and utterly inaccurate description of those studies. Maybe the issue here is the use of terminology of "overexpression" vs "increased expression" vs "induced expression" vs. "induction of expression"? Those terms are synonyms. "Overexpression" usually refers to expression increased above baseline level due to some experimental manipulation, but in this context it means exactly the same thing as increased expression. In other words, a study may say "We altered the promoter for gene X so that the gene was overexpressed in the brain." That is just saying that gene expression increased above baseline levels.

If you don't believe me about this language, take a look at the following passage, which describes the effects of stress and chronic drug administration on ΔFosB in exactly the same terms:

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v38/n11/full/npp2013130a.html

"ΔFosB is considered a molecular marker for chronic stimulation of reward circuitry, stress-induced neuroplasticity, and sensitization to psychostimulants. ΔFosB, barely detectable immediately after acute stimuli, accumulates to considerable levels after repeated social defeat stress or repeated drug administration and persists due to its stability (Nestler et al, 1999; Nikulina et al, 2008; Perrotti et al, 2004)."

Here are several passages from papers showing that stress and other stimuli can markedly increase the expression of ΔFosB in NACC:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24259563

"The transcription factor, ΔFosB, is robustly and persistently induced in striatum by several chronic stimuli, such as drugs of abuse, antipsychotic drugs, natural rewards, and stress. However, very few studies have examined the degree of ΔFosB induction in the two striatal medium spiny neuron (MSN) subtypes. We make use of fluorescent reporter BAC transgenic mice to evaluate induction of ΔFosB in dopamine receptor 1 (D1) enriched and dopamine receptor 2 (D2) enriched MSNs in ventral striatum, nucleus accumbens (NAc) shell and core, and in dorsal striatum (dStr) after chronic exposure to several drugs of abuse including cocaine, ethanol, Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol, and opiates; the antipsychotic drug, haloperidol; juvenile enrichment; sucrose drinking; calorie restriction; the serotonin selective reuptake inhibitor antidepressant, fluoxetine; and social defeat stress. Our findings demonstrate that chronic exposure to many stimuli induces ΔFosB in an MSN-subtype selective pattern across all three striatal regions. To explore the circuit-mediated induction of ΔFosB in striatum, we use optogenetics to enhance activity in limbic brain regions that send synaptic inputs to NAc; these regions include the ventral tegmental area and several glutamatergic afferent regions: medial prefrontal cortex, amygdala, and ventral hippocampus. These optogenetic conditions lead to highly distinct patterns of ΔFosB induction in MSN subtypes in NAc core and shell. Together, these findings establish selective patterns of ΔFosB induction in striatal MSN subtypes in response to chronic stimuli and provide novel insight into the circuit-level mechanisms of ΔFosB induction in striatum."


Here is a quote from another paper:


"This time-dependent pattern of induction of Fos family proteins in the frontal cortex by acute versus chronic stress is highly similar to that seen in response to other treatments, e.g., chronic electroconvulsive seizures in the frontal cortex (Hope et al., 1994a), or chronic administration of a drug of abuse (Hope et al., 1994b; Moratalla et al., 1996) or antipsychotic drugs (Doucet et al., 1996; Hiroi and Graybiel, 1996; Atkins et al., 1999) in the striatum. In each of these studies, the identification of the 35-37 kDa band as modified isoforms of ΔFosB and the 33 kDa protein as the native form of the protein is based on the following lines of evidence: (1) overexpression of ΔFosB cDNA in cultured cells initially produces the 33 kDa band, which is gradually replaced by the 35-37 kDa band during more prolonged expression (Chen et al., 1997; Alibhai et al., 2004); (2) the 33 kDa and 35-37 kDa bands are both recognized by anti-FosB(N-terminus) antibody and not by anti-FosB(C-terminus) antibody (Hope et al., 1994b; Chen et al., 1995, 1997); and (3) both the 33 and 35-37 kDa bands are lost in fosB knock-out mice (Hiroi et al., 1997, 1998; Mandelzys et al., 1997). The nature of the modifications that convert the 33 kDa band to the 35-37 kDa band has remained unknown, but recent evidence suggests that phosphorylation of the protein is involved (Ulery and Nestler, 2004).

The effects of acute and chronic stress on levels of Fos family proteins in the frontal cortex were mirrored in certain other brain regions. The most dramatic of these regions was the NAc, where induction of c-Fos, FosB, and Fra-1/2 after acute stress, their desensitization after chronic stress, and the unique induction of the 35-37 kDa isoforms of ΔFosB after chronic stress were as prominent as those seen in the frontal cortex (Fig. 1C). Qualitatively similar results were obtained for the lateral septum, dorsal striatum, amygdala, and locus ceruleus, although the magnitude of induction of the various proteins after acute and chronic stress was generally not as large as that seen in the frontal cortex and NAc (data not shown). In contrast, no induction of ΔFosB (or any other Fos family protein) was apparent after chronic stress in other regions analyzed, which included the hippocampus, parietal cortex, and ventral tegmental area (data not shown).

We next analyzed the time course by which repeated restraint stress caused the induction of the 35-37 kDa ΔFosB isoforms. As mentioned earlier, no induction was seen 24 hr after a single period of restraint, but the effect became near-maximal after 5 d of daily restraint stress. No additional induction was seen after 10 d of daily restraint stress. This was true in all regions analyzed, e.g., in the frontal cortex, NAc, lateral septum, and dorsal striatum (Fig. 1D). Moreover, in each of these regions, levels of the ΔFosB isoforms remained significantly elevated 1 week after the last stress treatment, consistent with the highly stable nature of these isoforms (Fig. 1E).

A different form of chronic stress, chronic unpredictable stress, also led to the accumulation of the 35-37 kDa isoforms of ΔFosB in the same brain regions affected by chronic restraint stress. In fact, the magnitude of ΔFosB induction tended to be greater with chronic unpredictable stress (Fig. 1F), perhaps because rats show less habituation to this form of stress (where the individual stresses vary from day to day) compared with restraint stress (Ortiz et al., 1996)."


Here is the abstract of another paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15564575

"Acute and chronic stress differentially regulate immediate-early gene (IEG) expression in the brain. Although acute stress induces c-Fos and FosB, repeated exposure to stress desensitizes the c-Fos response, but FosB-like immunoreactivity remains high. Several other treatments differentially regulate IEG expression in a similar manner after acute versus chronic exposure. The form of FosB that persists after these chronic treatments has been identified as DeltaFosB, a splice variant of the fosB gene. This study was designed to determine whether the FosB form induced after chronic stress is also DeltaFosB and to map the brain regions and identify the cell populations that exhibit this effect. Western blotting, using an antibody that recognizes all Fos family members, revealed that acute restraint stress caused robust induction of c-Fos and full-length FosB, as well as a small induction of DeltaFosB, in the frontal cortex (fCTX) and nucleus accumbens (NAc). The induction of c-Fos (and to some extent full-length FosB) was desensitized after 10 d of restraint stress, at which point levels of DeltaFosB were high. A similar pattern was observed after chronic unpredictable stress. By use of immunohistochemistry, we found that chronic restraint stress induced DeltaFosB expression predominantly in the fCTX, NAc, and basolateral amygdala, with lower levels of induction seen elsewhere. These findings establish that chronic stress induces DeltaFosB in several discrete regions of the brain. Such induction could contribute to the long-term effects of stress"

[A fairly good, but not fully comprehensive, review on the role of ΔFosB in addiction is PMID 25083822. I'd suggest that you read the entire review to gain a foundational understanding on the significance of that transcription factor in addiction, since you seem to be off-handedly discounting it.

Also, "This indicates that ΔFosB is both necessary and sufficient for many of the changes wrought in the brain by chronic drug exposure." This is part of what I was referring to in my previous post. This "necessary and sufficient" clause is a logical equivalence, meaning that ΔFosB overexpression that occurs by means of any mechanism induces addictive plasticity AND such plasticity never occurs without it.
I have certainly read the reviews. You are misunderstanding what they mean in that quote. Addiction is dependent on plasticity in accumbens, and so long-lasting changes in plasticity following ΔFosB expression increases are going to play an important role in the remodelling of striatal citcuits in addiction. But that doesn't mean that the only type of accumbens plasticity (and increase of ΔFosB expression) occurs in addiction. There are plenty of other situations, such as chronic stress, that cause significant plasticity in accumbens. And in those situations, the above quote might also be valid (eg, it might be equally valid to write that the ΔFosB expression change in accumbens might be necessary and sufficient for many changes in the brain brought by chronic stress exposure).

If what you were claiming is true, then studies need to not only show that ΔFosB expression increases are necessary and sufficient for compulsive drug use, but also to show that such changes are EXCLUSIVE to compulsive drug use. And that last criteria is something that is not actually true. The striatum, including NACC, is involved in the development of habitual behavioral patterns, so any time there a behavior becomes habitual there is going to be striatal plasticity and increased expression of ΔFosB.
 
Last edited:
It's extremely hard to do this when genuinely, everything I did care for, and my entire life has been ripped apart.

I know the change in attitude I suggest seems like BS, but there is a lot to be said for appreciating whatever function we still have left.

For example, you say "I would happily have my worst major depression back again for this. No doubt."

There are numerous experiences that could happen in the future that would make you thankful just to return to your present state, but there is a strange learning curve to realizing that we always have more to lose.

I think anything that could reduce obsessive thoughts would be useful. Maybe they could pair it with naltrexone as well? Or other medications too.

I would probably try naltrexone first if you were so inclined, but in my experience antipsychotics can reduce obsessive thoughts and quell compulsions.

SSRI stopped my suicidal ideation during depression but it zombie'd me.

I tired Paroxetine in the summer for a bit but it enhanced the effect of everything appearing brighter than usual in my DR. (and I have heard the withdrawals from long-term Paxil can be brutal).

I think some people tend to lean away from Paxil because it has such a short half life. Generally you want medications to have a long half life and steady concentrations. Something like Lexapro would be better in that regard. An SSRI + an atypical antipsychotic is a common combo nowadays.

But there is also Depakote and oxcarbazepine et cetera, these are known to lower testosterone.
 
Top