• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Anti-addictive agents

Is there a rationale for having a "pre-addiction" diagnosis in the DSM, in an attempt to avert full blown addiction? "At risk for addiction", I suppose?

Once a significant negative consequence occurs, it seems like it may be more difficult to treat the behavior after that point - "Why should I stop having sex with strangers if I already have AIDS?" - "Why should I stop shooting up with strangers if I already have hepatitis?"

It may be similar to treating prodromes in schizophrenia in the sense that not everybody goes on to develop the full blown disease, but I guess there is this "schizotypal" genre grey area, and possibly something analogous to schizotypal in regards to addiction.


To OP: I think you should practice mindfulness meditation, and learn to apply it throughout the day. Antipsychotics can help with hyper sexuality and compulsions. CBT is always a good option as well.
 
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Is there a rationale for having a "pre-addiction" diagnosis in the DSM, in an attempt to avert full blown addiction? "At risk for addiction", I suppose?

Once a significant negative consequence occurs, it seems like it may be more difficult to treat the behavior after that point - "Why should I stop having sex with strangers if I already have AIDS?" - "Why should I stop shooting up with strangers if I already have hepatitis?"

It may be similar to treating prodromes in schizophrenia in the sense that not everybody goes on to develop the full blown disease, but I guess there is this "schizotypal" genre grey area, and possibly something analogous to schizotypal in regards to addiction.


To OP: I think you should practice mindfulness meditation, and learn to apply it throughout the day. Antipsychotics can help with hyper sexuality and compulsions. CBT is always a good option as well.

There is a big difference between behaviors that are disordered vs. behaviors that are normal but dangerous. Choosing to have risky sex with strangers is not an abnormal behavior that requires medical treatment. If someone has compulsive sexual feelings that drive them to commit sexual assault then that is abnormal, but engaging in risky sexual activity is part of the normal range of human behavior. Now that doesn't mean that people should be encouraged to go out and have risky sex -- it is one of many normal activities that should be discouraged -- but making the choice to have risky sex dies not mean that someone is suffering from a psychiatric illness.
 
I think you have misunderstood alot about my posts but that could be my fault from my wording and things I have omitted -its clear to me that I am addicted, in any practical sense of the word. Anyway, I have been diagnosed by my psychiatrist as having sex addiction and am now waiting to be referred to a specialist psychiatrist who mainly focuses on this area.

This is perhaps getting lost in the semantics? It is interesting but i am in too much shit to care right now. I just want help guys!!

Is there anything else that anybody can recommend?

I doubt there is a pre-addictive DSM diagnosis. My advice for the young ones: avoid all this crap altogether and get some real life sex. The warning signs were too easy to miss for some people and porn addiction. Watch how this emerges as a big problem in the next 5 or 10 years. It will be like cigarettes or drugs (generalised point for the last one - I am aware what forum i'm on).
 
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Im a 21 year old male and watch porn for 30-60 minutes everynight. Im curious based on your beliefs would that qualify as a sex addiction?

I think the issue here is drugs do exsist that supress sex drive but sexual behavior driving most of a young males life is not abnormal. And, having sex with a transexual is not a big deal. I watch females penetrating males sometimes.

Im straight one time i had straight up sex with a man. That itself does not equal a disorder.
 
I guess the issue for me is that you haven't listed any behaviors that are abnormal. Thirty years ago, it would have been common for a young man to present at a psychiatrist complaining that they think constantly about sex with other men, they compulsively masturbate several times per day, and although they tried not to, they recently broke down and had sex with another man. During that period, the psychiatrist would have diagnosed them with a disorder. Now, that patient would be viewed as being completely normal.

To be clear, I suffer from an extremely bad case of porn and sex addiction. I am going to be a separate thread about that in the sober living section of the forum. By that, I mean that I suffer from cravings for porn and sex (anonymous sex, with prostitutes etc). I tried to do the "nofap" thing about 4 years ago and would not be able to maintain abstinence. When I did relapse, often I would suddenly start a completely new activity or behaviour that would come in "out of the blue". It was like somebody had injected this thought into my mind. It was loaded up with euphoria and compulsivity.

Part of the issue in my mind is that it is a mistake to apply medical/addiction terminology like abstinence and relapse to masturbation. Masturbation is a normal behavior and I don't think many healthy adults who like to masturbate could stop for an extended period, so those terms become meaningless in this case. In drug addiction or cancer treatment, relapse is a serious affair because someone could potentially die; by contrast, in someone who compulsively masturbates, relapse is not a serious problem.

The other thing that strikes me as odd is that you seem to think it is unusual for people to feel an extremely strong urge to have sex. That drive is normal -- it evolved so that people will reproduce.

I think you have misunderstood alot about my posts but that could be my fault from my wording and things I have omitted -its clear to me that I am addicted, in any practical sense of the word. Anyway, I have been diagnosed by my psychiatrist as having sex addiction and am now waiting to be referred to a specialist psychiatrist who mainly focuses on this area.

Psychiatric diagnoses are often driven by distress, so if this area of your life is causing you distress then it is worth exploring. But keep in mind that "sex addiction" is not an official DSM5 psychiatric disorder. As in my example, 30 years ago there were psychiatrists who specialized in treating patients suffering from homosexuality, but we now understand that there is no such disorder. So just because you found a psychiatrist willing to put you into a diagnostic category doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of whether sex addiction is a valid diagnostic category.

Besides therapy, there are several medications that have been used in patients that are disturbed by their sexual behavior. No medications are approved for such use.

*antidepressants -- this would potentially be effective if your behavior is driven by anxiety or depression
* naltrexone
* anti-androgens -- they will reduce your sex drive
 
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It didn't make it in the DSM but you should have a look at the work of Dr Martin Kafka. I think you will find it fascinating. So what do you do until it is accepted? Ignore the patients? After all, somebody had to give naltrexone a go in that case report.

Okay, I will say in response to that, that as well, it is absolutely misery inducing living with the kind of craving and obsessive thoughts that I have. Horrendous. I don't care if somebody is a straight male or a sex offender (extreme example), but its completely fucked up. I would rather be beaten up anyway (I have been rushed by a gang before and got messed up). That was WAY more fun.

Im a 21 year old male and watch porn for 30-60 minutes everynight. Im curious based on your beliefs would that qualify as a sex addiction?

I think the issue here is drugs do exsist that supress sex drive but sexual behavior driving most of a young males life is not abnormal. And, having sex with a transexual is not a big deal. I watch females penetrating males sometimes.


Im straight one time i had straight up sex with a man. That itself does not equal a disorder.

I don't know if you are an addict. I am not saying that watching porn every night = addiction. I can only tell if you are addicted if you try to quit and cannot. Until then, I can't say anything. You may also find that you have ED and cannot get hard unless it is to your new favourite porn. Again, I couldn't tell and hope not.

Also, genuine question here, how can you have sex with a man and be straight? And consider this: you might be personally comfortable and whatever with watching women penetrate men. I'm not going after that specifically even. For example, I used to watch hardcore group sex. But ask yourself this. If you had never started watching porn would you ever have watched that? That seems to be the dopamine-driven need for novelty and tolerance. I bet when you first started watching porn, it was soft porn and that would get you off. I think that process can definitely be part of the "addiction" or "compulsive" element for people who have problem with porn and sex.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad for masturbating but I heard a good quote (which came from a podcast for straight men in regards to sex with women): "we have developed a sex drive IE something which is supposed to DRIVE you towards SEX, not your hand and a screen". Something like that. Just watch how the dangers of porn will come out in the next few years and a big big deal will be made in the media about how this was "sold" to our generation as something non-damaging and safe.
 
Anyway, much more importantly. If anyone finds any drug or idea for cravings, or any therapeutic modality I will be very fucking grateful.

CBT: Hmm ok. Let's hope that the sex addiction people I see might offer that or give me something else.

Mindfulness I basically suck at. Again, they might be able to help me with that (it's everywhere in mental health now). I will start tai chi and yoga soon as well.

I would happily jump on board and micro-dose Ibogaine HCL, but again cannot because of the depersonalisation. i will be totally honest with the Dr and tell him I took it/the benefits.
 
If you suck at mindfulness then you stand a lot to gain by becoming procient at it. I'll spare you the success stories, but it really does work wonders for many people once they get the hang of it. Once they realize that they shouldn't be "thinking aloud to themselves" all day long, constantly reviving thoughts that give them cravings, they can experience a lot of relief. It does take practice though - but it's the best for the long term.

An App called Headspace is great to learn the basics with for free. There are also guided meditations on YouTube that are okay.
 
Take a look at this page:
http://social-bug.blogspot.com/2015/09/reality-of-sex-addiction.html?m=1

"The new edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the book considered the bible of psychiatry, will contain a new category of behavioral addictions — but sexual addiction will not be included in that category.

'There's not enough empirical evidence to call sex an addiction at this point,' said Dr. Martin P. Kafka, an associate clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and a member of the task force that's revising the manual."

There is also a good quote by Weiss at the end of that article that addresses this issue.

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So what do you do until it is accepted? Ignore the patients?
Well, the first thing to do is stop calling it a sex addiction until there is actually enough evidence to classify it that way. Second, you are not really paying attention to what I wrote. As I said, patients who are in distress should be treated, with the recognition that sometimes people can be unhappy with their behavior even if it isn't due to a psychiatric disorder.
 
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Dude, i ended up with a fucking transexual prostitute after 23 years of being straight. You will never have any idea of the pain and insanity this has unleashed.

I spend all day, every day, every second, obsessing in my head about sexuality and what I like etc. It is literally driving me to the point on insanity (probably bought on depersonalisation disorder, which was so bad when it came on, that I tried to kill myself and failed).

I emailed Dr Kafka, and he recommended that I get the help that I need. The reason I emailed him is after reading this: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/19/magazine/how-do-you-cure-a-sex-addict.html

I am pretty much at the point where I am surviving each day :(
 
Because how you are defining sex addiction means that most young adult males could also be classified as having a sex addiction.

We could also extend delusions to cover religiosity that is considered a societal/human norm.

Whatever the consequences of that are in practice, on paper I wouldn't take the approach of "It's not a delusion because most people are religious and humans naturally have these delusions", in the same sense that just because 95% of young males are compulsive and obsessed with regards to sex that doesn't mean it's not an addiction.

Take your quote -

Most young males think about sex constantly and crave it, and find it impossible to abstain from sexual behavior. Most teenage males masturbate and could not abstain if they wanted to.
and then replace "sex" with e.g heroin.

"Most young males think about heroin constantly and crave it, and find it impossible to abstain from using heroin. Most teenage males use heroin and could not abstain if they wanted to."

Add in some significant negative consequences and withdrawal symptoms, and that should qualify as addiction.

It sounds like the argument for this not extending to sex is that sex is "natural", but just because something is natural doesn't mean it is good for our society and shouldn't be treated as a potentially harmful behavior, and thus worth having diagnosis/treatment for.
 
Oo dont worry about me man. Yes it probably is driven by dopamine but i also had a girl penetrate me. I also watch alot of anal porn. And i even have had anal sex both ways with my ex girlfriend. All i am trying to say i guess is your behavior may seem abnormal in one setting of nofap and what that doctor says however in many many other setting it is not seen as a problem.
 
Say for example you where at a bar or party or whatever met a transexual and had sex with him. You didnt pay him but you did all kinds of kinky gay stuff extreme stuff weird stuff. Would it still be a problem?
 
Dude, i ended up with a fucking transexual prostitute after 23 years of being straight. You will never have any idea of the pain and insanity this has unleashed.

I spend all day, every day, every second, obsessing in my head about sexuality and what I like etc. It is literally driving me to the point on insanity (probably bought on depersonalisation disorder, which was so bad when it came on, that I tried to kill myself and failed).

I emailed Dr Kafka, and he recommended that I get the help that I need. The reason I emailed him is after reading this: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/19/magazine/how-do-you-cure-a-sex-addict.html

I am pretty much at the point where I am surviving each day :(


I understand that this is causing you distress, which is why Dr. Kafka would recommend you get treatment. But any course of treatment is going to explore why this is bothering you so much. There isn't anything inherently wrong with having sex with men, or with prostitutes, or with transexuals, or with transexual prostitutes. Obviously many men have sex with transexual prostitutes, or transexual prostitutes wouldn't exist. Are you disturbed because you think homosexual acts are wrong morally or are dirty? Would it disturb you as much if the prostitute was a woman? What about if it had just been a man you met at a bar?

It isn't weird that this happened at 23. People have sexual urges that are repressed and may take years to be expressed. You wouldn't really have the opportunity to act on this impulse when you were in high school.
I understand that this is causing you distress. But the problem you are having is that there is a disconnect between your views of your sexuality and what actually seems to turn you on. You may have to come to terms with the fact that your brain is wired to be sexually aroused by transexuals. Unfortunately, humans don't really control how their brains are wired for sex.
 
We could also extend delusions to cover religiosity that is considered a societal/human norm.

Whatever the consequences of that are in practice, on paper I wouldn't take the approach of "It's not a delusion because most people are religious and humans naturally have these delusions", in the same sense that just because 95% of young males are compulsive and obsessed with regards to sex that doesn't mean it's not an addiction.

The example you gave is not valid. Psychiatric illnesses are usually normal behaviors that are magnified to such an extreme that they become abnormal. Religious views are not considered to be psychiatric delusions unless they are taken to an extreme. So going to church on Sunday and believing in god is viewed as a religious belief, but thinking you are god and going to live in the woods as a hermit means that you are probably suffering from a religious delusion.

Anything that 95% of young males do would inherently be a normal human behavior. That doesn't mean such behaviors are good or should be encouraged, but they are not evidence of an illness.

Take your quote -

and then replace "sex" with e.g heroin.

"Most young males think about heroin constantly and crave it, and find it impossible to abstain from using heroin. Most teenage males use heroin and could not abstain if they wanted to."

Add in some significant negative consequences and withdrawal symptoms, and that should qualify as addiction.

I wasn't trying to go through all the criteria for addiction...there are others that I didn't list. There also has to be the possibility of experiencing tolerance and withdrawal. Not every addict may experience all the possible symptoms of addiction, but if there is little evidence of such symptoms in patients then the disorder probably should not be classified within the framework of addiction.

It sounds like the argument for this not extending to sex is that sex is "natural", but just because something is natural doesn't mean it is good for our society and shouldn't be treated as a potentially harmful behavior, and thus worth having diagnosis/treatment for.

The argument for this has nothing to do with sex being "natural". Schizophrenia and depression are natural. The argument is based on the fact that sexual behavior is a normal part of human behavior and therefore people who engage in common sexual behaviors are not suffering from a psychiatric illness. Some normal behaviors may be harmful, but that doesn't mean they are evidence of a psychiatric disorder.

It may seem like this is an issue of semantics, but it can be extremely problematic to try to pigeon hole certain behavioral disorders into the definition of addiction because they often don't fit, which ends up making it more difficult to understand and manage the illness. So you could classify compulsive overeating as a food addiction, but it turns out that it is actually not an addiction, but rather bulimia. Bulimia has a different cause, a different prognosis, and a different treatment, then addiction. Same with "sex addiction", which may actually be a disorder of hypersexuality. Recognizing that patients are not "addicted" to sex in the way that heroin addicts are addicted to using heroin, but rather are responding to an overly strong sex drive, completely changes our understanding of the illness and how to treat it.

For the OP and others, how we classify these disorders has important implications for how to treat the illness. It may be reasonable to strive for abstinence in an addict, but it is not reasonable in a patient with bulimia or in a patient with hypersexuality. If we try to convince hypersexual patients that they should be abstinent from all sexual activity, then we are setting them up to fail when they relapse, which is almost a certainty.

There is another dissimilarity between addictions like heroin addiction and gambling, and "sex addiction": while most people agree that the behaviors that heroin addicts and gambling addicts exhibit are problematic, some behaviors exhibited by "sex addicts" may only be aberrant from a religious perspective. That difference has profound implications for treating patients, because the best course of therapy for some patients may be to help them to come to terms with their lifestyle rather than trying to help them modify their behavior.
 
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Thanks for the response.

One point that I especially agree with is that various conditions should have a separate diagnosis (and thus different treatments) because they could be discrete entities as far as pathophysiology even if they share behavioral similarities.

With this in mind, let me just point out the similarities that can be observed with drug abuse and "hypersexuality": intensely rewarding/reinforcing effects - escalation - tolerance - various negative effects that don't really stop the behavior - withdrawal.


I understand a certain amount of sex is normal, and that sex may be a "hard wired" craving that we tolerate in certain amounts, but I guess I'm not convinced that the term "sex addiction" should be entirely replaced by by hypersexuality.

It would make sense to me to diagnose a patient on L-DOPA with hypersexuality if they don't meet some of the typical addiction criteria like escalation - tolerance - negative effects that don't stop the behavior - withdrawal. If it's just compulsive sex as if they were taking testosterone then that sounds to me like simple hypersexuality.

But I think some small percentage of people are experiencing something else entirely, and maybe it's mediated by pathology similar to what mediates some substance addictions.

Perhaps L-DOPA can cause issues with impulse control acutely, while "behavioral addictions" should imply more persistent pathology e.g. atrophy of the frontal lobes like is seen in some substance addictions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050060/

I thought you'd find this paper interesting. There is a Nestler quote in there:

"Growing evidence indicates that the VTA-NAc pathway and the other limbic regions cited above similarly mediate, at least in part, the acute positive emotional effects of natural rewards, such as food, sex and social interactions. These same regions have also been implicated in the so-called ‘natural addictions’ (that is, compulsive consumption for natural rewards) such as pathological overeating, pathological gambling, and sexual addictions.

Preliminary findings suggest that shared pathways may be involved: (an example is) cross-sensitization that occurs between natural rewards and drugs of abuse."


So maybe some people who have sex compulsively don't necessarily just have a high sex drive, maybe reduced impulse control because of i.e. OFC dysfunction plays a role, and this could be in common between substance addiction and behavioral addiction.
 
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I don't have just a high sex drive. That does not explain the craving, novelty, compulsively doing new behaviours that I can't stop etc. This is very very likely to be a dopimenergic issue mediated by the reward pathway. I think alot of you are completely over-complicating it and refusing to see this as something that can be driven in the same way, or at least much like, substance abuse.

About transexuals. This has ruined my life. Why is that a problem do you ask? Why don't you just accept it? Because I don't want to, and it is absolutely fucking horrendous being compulsively sent towards sex that makes you feel weird. As an experiment, why don't you go and get fucked by a man and then tell me if you feel great or regretful afterwards. But then imagine that all day and everyday, you cannot stop it, and what you have to do gets harder and harder and more extreme. By this point, if your job and social life is not suffering, and you don't literally feel like killing yourself, then please report back to me.

serotonin 2A, im sorry bro, but you are completely out of touch with how damaging this can be. if somebody starts accessing porn on their work network, shall we just let them come to terms with it, because its "society" that says watching porn at work is bad? that would be ridiculous wouldn't it.

I want to see the doctor as soon as possible and seek immediate help. If anybody has any knowledge or ideas on getting ibogaine congener's synthesised, I would be grateful.

Naltrexone is another option, although I would think of that, more as a maintenance therapy than anything.

Also, there is this. It's from a journal but the full-length paper has been pasted into the YBOP website. https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/internet-sex-addiction-treated-with-naltrexone
 
If we try to convince hypersexual patients that they should be abstinent from all sexual activity, then we are setting them up to fail when they relapse, which is almost a certainty.

Nobody said they should be celibate until they die. Before the transexual thing, my aim would have been to get into a relationship and have sex in that context. I wanted to reach 90 days of abstinence to get the "brain reboot" purported by sites like YBOP but that never happened. I couldn't make it.

The transexual thing makes me fell terrible, because to be very graphic with you (and this won't work without it), the thought of a dick in my mouth was disgusting. I did have some discomfort towards homosexuality, but I was always interested in vaginas. I liked fucking and licking vaginas. At no point ever did I want a penis or testicles in my mouth. Now, as I said, I feel like complete shit and in an awful mental state because of the TRAUMA of this happening randomly in my life when I never expected or wanted it to.

This is something that many counsellers and people completely miss. They think its just a case of becoming gay, and accepting it. What they fail to understand is how this was beyond my control and violated everything about myself. I have a feeling that the place I am going to, will not miss this point, because they also run one of the finest trauma clinics in the country. I told my counsellor that imagine if she compulsively sucked all the cocks on her street.....how would that make her feel? And what about ehr marriage? I wasn't trying to be cheeky, but make my point.

I was doing some weird weird stuff before the transexual things and to me, show some escalation from my normal masturbation habits for most of my life. I couldn't care less about that though. You might argue these things are "gay"or whatever but again, I didn't care.

I want to be "balance" my brain first of all and then see what sexual attraction is left by the end of it.
 
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I feel as though it's worth considering that some sexual compulsions are a manifestation of another mental illness, i.e. OCD. In which case the sexual bit is sort of non-specific to OCD - in other words, you would treat the OCD rather than the "sexual addiction". Or maybe "behavioral addictions" manifest in some people who are coping with underlying depression or life stress.

SSRIs can lower libido and help with OCD.

But just to reiterate part of what Serotonin was saying - if you do feel attracted to other sexes and are ashamed because of the morality/societal view of it then that's definitely something to work through.
 
I don't have just a high sex drive. That does not explain the craving, novelty, compulsively doing new behaviours that I can't stop etc. This is very very likely to be a dopimenergic issue mediated by the reward pathway. I think alot of you are completely over-complicating it and refusing to see this as something that can be driven in the same way, or at least much like, substance abuse.

The behavior you are describing may represent a psychiatric disorder, but is completely inconsistant with addiction. Addicts repeat particular behaviors over and over again because of reinforcement via the dopaminergic system, and eventually those behaviors begin to take up more and more of their time -- addicts don't randomly start exhibiting new behaviors or compulsions. If you are constantly developing new obsessions or compulsions then you might have a disorder such as OCD.

About transexuals. This has ruined my life. Why is that a problem do you ask? Why don't you just accept it? Because I don't want to, and it is absolutely fucking horrendous being compulsively sent towards sex that makes you feel weird. As an experiment, why don't you go and get fucked by a man and then tell me if you feel great or regretful afterwards. But then imagine that all day and everyday, you cannot stop it, and what you have to do gets harder and harder and more extreme. By this point, if your job and social life is not suffering, and you don't literally feel like killing yourself, then please report back to me.

Your experience sounds traumatic but again it isn't consistant with addiction. The way you are describing what happened sounds like sexual assault, but you apparently chose to put yourself in that situation. So-called sex addicts may have more sex then they are happy with, but they don't loose the ability to control whether their partners are male or female (just like drug addicts don't loose control over which substances they ingest). "Sex addiction" doesn't change who you are attracted to. Unless you were assaulted or were in some type of depersonalized or fugue state, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that you are responsible for the choices you made. You could have just walked away. If you were in a depersonalized state, then that is not consistant with "sex addiction" and points to some other illness.

You are also making a big assumption here, which is that I am not female, or a homosexual/bisexual man. Some people like to have sex with men. So much of your discomfort is based on a value judgement, namely that sex with other men is disgusting.

serotonin 2A, im sorry bro, but you are completely out of touch with how damaging this can be. if somebody starts accessing porn on their work network, shall we just let them come to terms with it, because its "society" that says watching porn at work is bad? that would be ridiculous wouldn't it.

Actually it turns out that many people watch pornography at work. Many employers actually do not have policies prohibiting their employees from watching porn at work as long as it doesn't interfere with their job. Certainly our society has no laws against watching porn at work.

I want to see the doctor as soon as possible and seek immediate help. If anybody has any knowledge or ideas on getting ibogaine congener's synthesised, I would be grateful.

Naltrexone is another option, although I would think of that, more as a maintenance therapy than anything.

Also, there is this. It's from a journal but the full-length paper has been pasted into the YBOP website. https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/internet-sex-addiction-treated-with-naltrexone

AASECT, the professional organization that regulates sex therapists, just put out a statement that sex addiction is not a proper diagnosis:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...he-aasect-sex-addiction-statement-was-created
 
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