Ethnobotanicals Amanita gummies as a sedative/hypnotic & for benzo taper (underrated!?)

[SpiralusSancti]

that’s not to say you can’t feel good whilst on it, just that on a biological level, it is much less rewarding than benzodiazepines, other traditional hypnotics and opioids ETC.

Not only you can feel as good on Amanita but it feels better than benzos. Probably not so much for strong anxiety (but didn't try it like that so who knows) but otherwise I would say yes. Ime it also feels a lot more similar to barbital than any benzo I tried. Not sure if I would say that it feels better than barbital at doses I tried so far. But considering how dangerous barbiturates are they shouldn't be an option for most people.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Not only you can feel as good on Amanita but it feels better than benzos. Probably not so much for strong anxiety (but didn't try it like that so who knows) but otherwise I would say yes. Ime it also feels a lot more similar to barbital than any benzo I tried. Not sure if I would say that it feels better than barbital at doses I tried so far. But considering how dangerous barbiturates are they shouldn't be an option for most people.

Very interesting. I think the differences between the rewarding nature of these drugs. highlights how complex The reward system is and how exactly it ties in with both human emotion and drug preference. i’ve noticed this with some of the other drug comparison threads I have made. most people will gravitate towards those which are more dopaminergic (biologically rewarding) and come up with a whole host of reasons as to why they are superior to another drug which is less dopaminergic. I don’t mean to say people are disingenuous because I myself imagine I would much prefer things that are more dopaminergic, but it’s just something we should be aware of.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Here’s another interesting inhibitory amino acid compound.

Quisqualamine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Very interesting. I think the differences between the rewarding nature of these drugs. highlights how complex The reward system is and how exactly it ties in with both human emotion and drug preference. i’ve noticed this with some of the other drug comparison threads I have made. most people will gravitate towards those which are more dopaminergic (biologically rewarding) and come up with a whole host of reasons as to why they are superior to another drug which is less dopaminergic. I don’t mean to say people are disingenuous because I myself imagine I would much prefer things that are more dopaminergic, but it’s just something we should be aware of.

I like to think drug preferences also have to do with mind and some parameters that might not be even measurable if detected. Like all the synapses firing all the ways they fire cuz what you feel and how and why you think.

While I was younger or better said before various addictions beside weed my main love were psychedelics and dissos. And euphoria they provided at times was on par with heroin and coke. Naturally more similar to that of MDMA but still totally different. Orgasmic, indescribably orgasmic. Also pairs good with sex making for some of most euphoric experiences possible. I'm willing to bet that in vivo result of strong dose of LSD's effects on the brain strongly depends on story and vibe of the trip if that makes sense. Naturally that more adrenaline and noradrenaline and other fight or flight chemicals occur if someone is experiencing bad trip vs. loads of feel good chemicals in the brain released and in synergy during sex. Some drugs will result in increased levels of feel good chemicals in the brain during sex and some will dampen that and make sex less interesting. With psychedelics and possibly some other drugs too I think it's more complex and varies from experience to experience. In a sense the more complex are the mental effects of some drug I think that it's also harder to predict proportions of neurological effects.

 

[golego55]

They sound lovely and normally I'm not into mushrooms or acid as I get bad effects due to my anxiety disorder and mental health, it just doesn't suit my brain chemistry I don't think but them ones sound mild and might help my sleep, would be nice to sleep through the night for a change without waking up a few times but I can't complain too much as I no longer take pills

Back when I was addicted to sleeping pills and benzos, mainly valium I'd read up on fly agaric as sleep aid, I don't think I could find any in the UK though

Sorry to go off track but how does your anxiety disorder effect your drug experiences for drugs other than muschrooms/acid?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I like to think drug preferences also have to do with mind and some parameters that might not be even measurable if detected. Like all the synapses firing all the ways they fire cuz what you feel and how and why you think.

While I was younger or better said before various addictions beside weed my main love were psychedelics and dissos. And euphoria they provided at times was on par with heroin and coke. Naturally more similar to that of MDMA but still totally different. Orgasmic, indescribably orgasmic. Also pairs good with sex making for some of most euphoric experiences possible. I'm willing to bet that in vivo result of strong dose of LSD's effects on the brain strongly depends on story and vibe of the trip if that makes sense. Naturally that more adrenaline and noradrenaline and other fight or flight chemicals occur if someone is experiencing bad trip vs. loads of feel good chemicals in the brain released and in synergy during sex. Some drugs will result in increased levels of feel good chemicals in the brain during sex and some will dampen that and make sex less interesting. With psychedelics and possibly some other drugs too I think it's more complex and varies from experience to experience. In a sense the more complex are the mental effects of some drug I think that it's also harder to predict proportions of neurological effects.

Oh yes, you are definitely correct and so many things are involved in drug preferences. however, I was referring more to the general rewarding nature of different drugs and how, if given to a large group of people at random, more people would choose the more dopaminergic drugs I assume. for example, when reading online, I’ve heard that methamphetamine has been used as a replacement for MDMA in ecstasy tablets. apparently, many people have come to prefer low-dose methamphetamine over MDMA as a social drug.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Oh yes, you are definitely correct and so many things are involved in drug preferences. however, I was referring more to the general rewarding nature of different drugs and how, if given to a large group of people at random, more people would choose the more dopaminergic drugs I assume. for example, when reading online, I’ve heard that methamphetamine has been used as a replacement for MDMA in ecstasy tablets. apparently, many people have come to prefer low-dose methamphetamine over MDMA as a social drug.

There's high likelihood for that. Only thing I don't think meth is common in xtc. Many people who do MDMA and xtc have no interest in meth and actively avoid it. So I don't think many of those would buy such pills twice. Meth might be similar in terms of euphoria in some ways but it lacks trippynes and loveliness of MDMA.

 

[burn out]

Plenty of traditional medicine turned out to be unacceptably toxic or almost ineffective. There's many different medicine used in Chinese traditional medicine that turned out to be more harm than good. Reason why there's many findings specifically in Chinese traditional medicine compared to let's say Ayurvedic medicine, might be contributed to fact that in China traditional medicine is considered legit too, along modern medicine, so there's scientific research about it.
I don't feel too content with idea that just cuz something was used since ever means it's perfectly safe. And for some reason Amanita use was never, at least in recorded history, in wide-spread use.

I think you missed his point. No one is saying that amanita is perfectly safe. It isn't, amanita can shred your mind to pieces especially if you don't respect it or don't know what you're doing. It can also cause more dangerous physical effects than psilocybin mushrooms or mescaline cactus tend to, although it's toxicity tends to be overstated and deaths from amanita alone are very rare and usually involve mistaken identity.

The significance of the thousands of years of history is that is gives us a knowledge base to build off. For example, alcohol has thousands of years of history of usage and is one of the most well studied drugs. Does that mean alcohol is perfectly safe? Of course not, but we know what the risks are. That's why I'd feel much safer consuming alcohol compared with some new alcohol substitute that just got invented last year.

The same is true for amanita, we know that it has a long history of successful use without killing or maiming too many people and many people report high levels of value from it so why wouldn't it make sense to investigate its healing potential?

Compare that to benzos, which don't have thousands of years of history of use and have already been shown to do terrible things to large numbers of their users. I would be shocked if people are still using benzos thousands of years from now.

That's curious as Datura & similar plants were and are used by more people. In my country everyone knows you get high from Datura and similar plants and aren't really aware how dangerous it's use is, while Amanita muscaria is considered toxic by most people. I hardly ever met someone outside psychonaut circles that's aware that shroom is first of all psychoactive and it seems pretty safe. I'm writing cuz you say it's used for thousand of years so it says something, doesn't than lack of popularity outside a few countries say something too?

It does say something and it is somewhat of a mystery how the knowledge of amanita and its uses was lost to history outside of a handful of countries but that's a whole other topic to speculate on and I'd argue it's not that uncommon in the world of psychoactive plants. Take kava for example, it's an incredible herb with lots of recreational potential and a great safety profile but it's not really popular except in a few countries. Even substances like marijuana and opium, historically speaking there were many cultures that were aware of their existence but did not really use them very much. How do you explain that? Prior to 20th century I don't think cannabis was used much in the USA despite it's existence being known about it and it being entirely legal.

Just for the record I too personally feel and conclude from what I know so far about it that psychoactive Amanitas have a good safety profile. But I wouldn't bet that there aren't serious problems that can arise from heavy or prolonged use. In a sense damaging yourself for personal development and knowledge is acceptable and valid path for some people but those are in minority. Most people when truly aware of risks or experiencing them first hand back of, back of far away from such things.
Also since you mentioned weed, many Indian gurus smoking chilums almost constantly as act of devotion consider such practice damaging. If nothing to the lungs. And hardly any will advocate use of cannabis, and definitely not in a way they do it.

There are definitely problems that can arise from heavy and prolonged amanita use.

 

[cdin]

I really want to try that one.

I think it scored too highly on abuse potential as well as a strong delirium, so they shelved it during trials. Yet, zolpidem also has such issues...

right? i want to gaboxadol soo badly

 

[Neuroprotection]

There's high likelihood for that. Only thing I don't think meth is common in xtc. Many people who do MDMA and xtc have no interest in meth and actively avoid it. So I don't think many of those would buy such pills twice. Meth might be similar in terms of euphoria in some ways but it lacks trippynes and loveliness of MDMA.

Apologies, as a person who has never done illegal drugs, or hung out with people who do, you’ll certainly have more knowledge than me on this area. I guess what I was reading about was likely people who were just looking to get high and didn’t initially know much about the empathogenic effects. there were also a few people on Reddit if I remember correctly, claiming they preferred low-dose methamphetamine (around 20 mg) as an alternative to MDMA because they said it was much less draining. then again, they are probably the exception because I’ve not heard of many careful methamphetamine users who would take such a limited dose by oral administration for partying.
On a sidenote, do you have any experience with orally administered methamphetamine? The reason I ask is because I’ve heard stories of people using amphetamines orally and having little to no problems especially with tolerance. However, after they decided to snort them they had a nasty experience and from then on developed a very high tolerance to amphetamine. if I get round to trying amphetamine or methamphetamine, I would only ever use by the oral route.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I think you missed his point. No one is saying that amanita is perfectly safe. It isn't, amanita can shred your mind to pieces especially if you don't respect it or don't know what you're doing. It can also cause more dangerous physical effects than psilocybin mushrooms or mescaline cactus tend to, although it's toxicity tends to be overstated and deaths from amanita alone are very rare and usually involve mistaken identity.

The significance of the thousands of years of history is that is gives us a knowledge base to build off. For example, alcohol has thousands of years of history of usage and is one of the most well studied drugs. Does that mean alcohol is perfectly safe? Of course not, but we know what the risks are. That's why I'd feel much safer consuming alcohol compared with some new alcohol substitute that just got invented last year.

The same is true for amanita, we know that it has a long history of successful use without killing or maiming too many people and many people report high levels of value from it so why wouldn't it make sense to investigate its healing potential?

As for last question, I don't see any reason why to not investigate it. I'm stating so might be true for ibotenic acid. Kind of like why would I use MK-something that's a proven neurotoxin to induce NMDA antagonist high while there are neuroprotective NDMA anatagonists or at least likely not neurotoxic.
If we gona talk about traditional use I've heard for and read about many traditional and supposedly traditional ways of Amanita preparation that convert ibotenic acid to muscimol. If ibotenic acid was that great I guess traditional way would be simply eating them raw or doing extraction that doesn't convert it to muscimol.
Sun drying, fire drying, teas, alcohol infusions, drinking piss all usually to some extent convert ibotenic acid to muscimol.
Even if it's a thing similar to how ayahuasceros recommend fasting before aya, yet it seems strict diet isn't really needed. Well eat some spoiled food with MAOi and you'll figure out why it's done.

Compare that to benzos, which don't have thousands of years of history of use and have already been shown to do terrible things to large numbers of their users. I would be shocked if people are still using benzos thousands of years from now.

If rotten fruit created etizolam instead ethanol we would.
Benzos vs. Booze? That's a really though one. I vote booze cuz it's food too and can be very tasty.

It does say something and it is somewhat of a mystery how the knowledge of amanita and its uses was lost to history outside of a handful of countries but that's a whole other topic to speculate on and I'd argue it's not that uncommon in the world of psychoactive plants. Take kava for example, it's an incredible herb with lots of recreational potential and a great safety profile but it's not really popular except in a few countries. Even substances like marijuana and opium, historically speaking there were many cultures that were aware of their existence but did not really use them very much. How do you explain that? Prior to 20th century I don't think cannabis was used much in the USA despite it's existence being known about it and it being entirely legal.

Opium and opium tea was and often still is used as medicine in many countries where domestic poppies were introduced and can grow.
Cannabis wasn't that interesting outside places where growing potent enough stuff and than converting it to hashish wasn't viable. Also cannabis orally if not prepared right isn't psychoactive. And smoking it if it's not potent enough, and it's really hard to find landrace growing wild that's nearly potent enough, will definitely seem less tempting than smoking some tobacco. While tobacco can easily be too potent if smoked as it is. And poppy tea with very small amount of poppies can provide strong pain-relief and other medicinal effects.

Amanitas ain't hard to find at all. They are very widespread and very easy to find and identify. Plus they if you consume ibotenic acid don't require any preparation. If you go by some of most walked forest trails in my county you can't miss them. I'm sure it's similar at countless woods all over the world. That people all over the world "forgot" it's used as a drug seems so weird. More so that it didn't gain popularity during 60s and 70s when some arguably very shitty drugs did.

 

[Neuroprotection]

apparently, compared to psilocybin and other psychedelics, Muscimol at the lower end of the psychedelic dose range, produces a more dreamlike and childish/fantasy experience. it is said that many magical fairytale stories could have come from people consuming this mushroom. I don’t know if traditional psychedelics could have contributed as well, but apparently their affects are generally more grown-up and profound.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Apologies, as a person who has never done illegal drugs, or hung out with people who do, you’ll certainly have more knowledge than me on this area. I guess what I was reading about was likely people who were just looking to get high and didn’t initially know much about the empathogenic effects. there were also a few people on Reddit if I remember correctly, claiming they preferred low-dose methamphetamine (around 20 mg) as an alternative to MDMA because they said it was much less draining. then again, they are probably the exception because I’ve not heard of many careful methamphetamine users who would take such a limited dose by oral administration for partying.
On a sidenote, do you have any experience with orally administered methamphetamine? The reason I ask is because I’ve heard stories of people using amphetamines orally and having little to no problems especially with tolerance. However, after they decided to snort them they had a nasty experience and from then on developed a very high tolerance to amphetamine. if I get round to trying amphetamine or methamphetamine, I would only ever use by the oral route.

No reason to apologise. I've used methamphetamine only a few times. I can imagine why some would consider using it in a place of MDMA. While it ain't emphatogen, like you wrote it sure doesn't feel as draining as MDMA when used in moderation. Even if we disregard that it isn't emphatogen, making it unfair comparison, where I think meth wont beat MDMA is first experiences while novelty is present, especially if done in proper set & setting. But I never done a really big dose of meth so might be wrong.
But you can't really substitute emphatogens for stimulants or vice versa. And while even plain oral amphetamine (less than meth I would say) can make for a great time if used on a party where MDMA was other choice I would still always suggest rather reaching for 2c-b, αMT, foxy and many other things. But those I would suggest instead MDMA anyway. Imo MDMA is something that it's no question worth experiencing but very soon not worth it. You can ruin MDMA faster than most drugs. Some have luck and it doesn't happen to them and than many of those forget it isn't actually safe substance if used more than a once in a blue moon.

O and one more note, about oral use of amphs. It does feel different than snorting it. Reason why with time I moved more forward snorting it, beside fast come-up is that even overall effects might last quite long, initial euphoria doesn't so at least most people I know end up redosing way more often than one would expect is needed (same seems to go for most meth users). That initial euphoria is really longer when eating it but when planing to do quite a bit anyway it doesn't matter that much.

 

[Neuroprotection]

No reason to apologise. I've used methamphetamine only a few times. I can imagine why some would consider using it in a place of MDMA. While it ain't emphatogen, like you wrote it sure doesn't feel as draining as MDMA when used in moderation. Even if we disregard that it isn't emphatogen, making it unfair comparison, where I think meth wont beat MDMA is first experiences while novelty is present, especially if done in proper set & setting. But I never done a really big dose of meth so might be wrong.
But you can't really substitute emphatogens for stimulants or vice versa. And while even plain oral amphetamine (less than meth I would say) can make for a great time if used on a party where MDMA was other choice I would still always suggest rather reaching for 2c-b, αMT, foxy and many other things. But those I would suggest instead MDMA anyway. Imo MDMA is something that it's no question worth experiencing but very soon not worth it. You can ruin MDMA faster than most drugs. Some have luck and it doesn't happen to them and than many of those forget it isn't actually safe substance if used more than a once in a blue moon.

O and one more note, about oral use of amphs. It does feel different than snorting it. Reason why with time I moved more forward snorting it, beside fast come-up is that even overall effects might last quite long, initial euphoria doesn't so at least most people I know end up redosing way more often than one would expect is needed (same seems to go for most meth users). That initial euphoria is really longer when eating it but when planing to do quite a bit anyway it doesn't matter that much.

Thank you very much for that detailed answer. I don’t really like the idea of binging so I should be okay with occasional oral amphetamine administration occasionally. that is of course, if I don’t get diagnosed with ADHD. to be honest, I’d rather go for selegiline as a motivational stimulant, but I guess amphetamine is easier to get hold of so I might try that first. in fact, if I am found to have some sort of attention deficit disorder, which I suspect I do, I will try my best to use my stimulant medications on an as needed basis. I have so many ideas, but my changing work circumstances and my condition have left me very confused as to what to do.

 

[polymath]

Looks like the starter of the thread possibly got this idea from this one here, where I tested fly agaric mushrooms for the anxiety after a heavy alcohol drinking binge. Great if it helped someone. I actually did this many times this autumn and the previous one, and it really made the nervousness much more tolerable. But remember that it's not 100% sure that muscimol will be completely effective for a serious alcohol or benzo withdrawal state where there is a real convulsion risk. I remember seeing two articles where muscimol was tested for serious alcohol WD in mice or rats, and one of them claimed that it did work and another one claimed that it didn't. But they probably used different muscimol dosages and possibly measured the withdrawal intensity from a different quantifiable symptom. Both articles were difficult to find afterwards because of how the Google search result prioritization can change quickly. The other substance I tested for a bad alcohol hangover (with anxiety usually lasting for 2-3 days afterwards), potassium bromide, is definitely one that should negate all of the alcohol and benzo withdrawal symptoms if enough of it is taken, but it also has more bad side effects if you use it for too extended period of time.

It's best to remember that if you have an incoming serious alcohol or benzo WD to expect, it's wisest to first try to get to inpatient detox because in that situation almost no one can think completely rationally and it's best if someone with actual professional competence administers the medications. For mild alcohol or benzo withdrawal or the PAWS afterwards, I would expect muscimol to actually be very effective.

 

[burn out]

As for last question, I don't see any reason why to not investigate it. I'm stating so might be true for ibotenic acid. Kind of like why would I use MK-something that's a proven neurotoxin to induce NMDA antagonist high while there are neuroprotective NDMA anatagonists or at least likely not neurotoxic.
If we gona talk about traditional use I've heard for and read about many traditional and supposedly traditional ways of Amanita preparation that convert ibotenic acid to muscimol. If ibotenic acid was that great I guess traditional way would be simply eating them raw or doing extraction that doesn't convert it to muscimol.
Sun drying, fire drying, teas, alcohol infusions, drinking piss all usually to some extent convert ibotenic acid to muscimol.
Even if it's a thing similar to how ayahuasceros recommend fasting before aya, yet it seems strict diet isn't really needed. Well eat some spoiled food with MAOi and you'll figure out why it's done.


If rotten fruit created etizolam instead ethanol we would.
Benzos vs. Booze? That's a really though one. I vote booze cuz it's food too and can be very tasty.

I haven't tried etizolam but if rotten fruit produced any of the benzos I have tried I am sure that while they would have been used, they would not hold the same place of cultural significance that alcohol has. They are simply too damaging to the brain and not euphoric enough.

Opium and opium tea was and often still is used as medicine in many countries where domestic poppies were introduced and can grow.
Cannabis wasn't that interesting outside places where growing potent enough stuff and than converting it to hashish wasn't viable. Also cannabis orally if not prepared right isn't psychoactive. And smoking it if it's not potent enough, and it's really hard to find landrace growing wild that's nearly potent enough, will definitely seem less tempting than smoking some tobacco. While tobacco can easily be too potent if smoked as it is. And poppy tea with very small amount of poppies can provide strong pain-relief and other medicinal effects.

So you're saying it wasn't possible to grow cannabis in the United States prior to 1920? What changed? Also, when you don't have a tolerance you can get insanely high off relatively weak cannabis. It's only people who have a tolerance that need high quality cannabis to get a good high.

Amanitas ain't hard to find at all. They are very widespread and very easy to find and identify. Plus they if you consume ibotenic acid don't require any preparation. If you go by some of most walked forest trails in my county you can't miss them. I'm sure it's similar at countless woods all over the world. That people all over the world "forgot" it's used as a drug seems so weird. More so that it didn't gain popularity during 60s and 70s when some arguably very shitty drugs did.

I agree, it's weird and I am not really sure how it happened. However I know from experience how incredibly good amanita can be and we know ancient people used it. That's why I said earlier the mystery of how amanita was essentially forgotten is quite an interesting topic to speculate on.

For example, perhaps the biggest mystery is if amanita was the main ingredient in the hoama used in Iran and soma used in India how exactly was this tradition lost? In Hinduism you have the idea of the four yugas and we currently find ourselves in the kali yuga, which is the most degenerate and darkest age spiritually where most of the ancient wisdom has been forgotten so I would assume this has something to do with it. None the less, you have to wonder even if people became less interested in using soma, you would think they would still remember how to make it and yet now there is all this controversy over what was even in soma. I mean some scholars don't even think it was made from amanita and have proposed other plants. Personally I think it had to be amanita, but something must have happened to where the knowledge was lost somehow. If anyone has done any research on this topic I would be interested to hear it. It's not like India is an irreligious place, many other ancient traditions still exist in India but they forgot how to make soma apparently.

 

[LittleSeagull]

Sorry to go off track but how does your anxiety disorder effect your drug experiences for drugs other than muschrooms/acid?

When I used to go raving MDMA without uk speed amphetamine made me worry, paranoid and sketch right out, like feelings of fear, horrible amd a very bad comedown, I remember half the time I done pills back in the day I'd have a rubbish night and I didn't know why, turns out those pills was mostly MDMA as speedy pills was alright, took like 6 years to figure that one out lol

Even my favourite which is ketamine gets affected but my mental health its strange as it helps my anxiety most of the time but if I'm worried about something K makes it worse just if it's just regular anxiety like social anxiety K can help it, thing is I never know if the next gram of K will be good or like its been lately I don't have a good time anymore and it barely works so I stopped as I had a little bit of a problem with it

Took 2cb a few times but that doesn't really work on me, very strange as I knew they was good as I sold the ones I had and the people loved them

As for pills like valium, other benzos, tramadol, codeine, zopiclone and many other different pills I took for anxiety, pain and insomnia, they helped at first, till they did not help and made me much much worse, was addicted to quite a few different pills over the years, don't take them anymore

 

[swilow]

I also used to ritualistically drink my urine after consuming them,

Is ritualistic urine drinking different to good ole regular urine drinking?

 

[Frog Dreams]

Yes.

 

[Neuroprotection]

is it true that Muscimol has resulted in many instances of bizarre, self injurious and violent behaviour as suggested by historical records of people eating these mushrooms and more recently by the Joe Rogan podcast to which I posted a link earlier. One of the really interesting properties of Muscimol is that at doses which don’t obviously impair cognition, it seems to act as a pleasant stimulant and apparently gave Russian soldiers The strength and resilience to march for miles in the Arctic cold. no wonder Muscimol is so valued in neuroscience research. however, I think its value may go far beyond research into neuronal function and it may be able to teach us a lot about the neurology of relevant human behaviours and how deficits in these may be treated in a sustainable manner.