Drink_Tea_Love_Cat
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ps - nerve damage is listed as a negative side effect of DLPA toxicity, as is death. Of course, consume enough of anything and death could be on the cards...
-
BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Advice/Help - "ectopic beats"/irregular heart issues after taking DLPA - 84 hours +
- Thread starter Drink_Tea_Love_Cat
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Scrofula
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Hey there.
I get ectopic beats pretty often and usually never find a cause. They happen cold sober, and with every other drug and drug combo.
I have a prolapsed mitral valve, which means I get to feel every extra beat as the valve snaps like a backfire.
It is NOT pleasant.
But it's all harmless. At least for me. It's also associated with panic disorders (no, I don't understand those genetics, but there is literature on it).
So, consider asking about that. There's nothing to do for it, but then you might know.
If you get into an ectopic beat phase, I haven't found any remedy other than time. Brisk walking is probably best; gets rid of most, only for the time you're actually walking though. An activity that distracts is better than "relaxing", since reclining with a movie will make every extra beat feel like your chest will burst.
But they're harmless. You'll be fine.
I get ectopic beats pretty often and usually never find a cause. They happen cold sober, and with every other drug and drug combo.
I have a prolapsed mitral valve, which means I get to feel every extra beat as the valve snaps like a backfire.
It is NOT pleasant.
But it's all harmless. At least for me. It's also associated with panic disorders (no, I don't understand those genetics, but there is literature on it).
So, consider asking about that. There's nothing to do for it, but then you might know.
If you get into an ectopic beat phase, I haven't found any remedy other than time. Brisk walking is probably best; gets rid of most, only for the time you're actually walking though. An activity that distracts is better than "relaxing", since reclining with a movie will make every extra beat feel like your chest will burst.
But they're harmless. You'll be fine.
Drink_Tea_Love_Cat
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Could I ask you to describe the feeling more? Like, do you get occasional isolated beats, or do they come in multiples? Does it feel like a pounding in your solar plexus, or in the middle of your chest? Do you ever get twitches in other areas of your chest perhaps? and if there is any way to, could you describe the strength of the beat? I find that running or just getting a lot of adrenaline due to nerves gives me stronger beats (or palpitations) than any of the possible ectopic beats. Obviously I don't worry about high and strong heart rate when exercising, and nerves makes sense to have elevated heart rate...
I'm finding they come on stronger when sitting, especially hunched over, and after eating. I thought it was related to protein intake, but any food seems to affect the occurence afterwards and some times during.
I'm actually starting to wonder if it's a digestion thing... have read some peoples experiences linking a pulsating feeling above solar plexus in centre of chest linked to acid reflux etc. Seems to be a few physical symptoms that people link to heart that may not be irregular heart.
Alternatively muscle twitching of sorts due to changes in chest/exercise.
Whatever it is, doesn't help that I had massive panic as a result of the DLPA, or the increased heart rate that seems to be linked to DLPA/CBD interaction of sorts. I was in a very good place mentally until I took those 2 doses of DLPA. It's taking me nearly 10 days to get slightly comfortable, but still have these effects.
Have been making a lot of changes recently in diet and exercise, so my body is changing and I'm very aware of my body now... e.g. just noticed 2 floaters in my left eye, they could have been there for months or longer! I never noticed them so they weren't a problem... now I have to process that and normalise it again.
Obviously I will have to ask the Dr in about a week, but I get the feeling I might never know exactly, and the longer I am healthy with it the more I will be ok with it I guess. But I do want to know what it is, so I can identify it as it arises.
thanks
Scrofula
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Now, the LONG story is a bit closer, and I tell you this with the added info, to keep in mind with your doc, cause they don't always listen.
I went through this as a teenager, and I wasn't having just ectopic beats, I was having QT prolongation directly caused by a single medication that was later pulled off the shelf when people died (In the US called Seldane). I went through the diet concerns, and time of day and activity, and all kinds of supernatural associations before I got the nerve to mention the problem. I was quickly dismissed by the doc.
I read about people dying in the news, I never heard about it from my doc. I made a fuss, and eventually would up at a cardiologist where I got the MVP diagnosis. Sort of like missing bullet holes for a wart.
Point is, press him on these sensations.
To describe them? That's hard. But it's definitely the center of the chest, can be a k-POW after an absent beat, or steady, like a shoe in a dryer, sometimes it feels like a bird fluttering; single, multiple, a fuckin jazz drummer. Sometimes it's just pressure. For QT prolongation, the heart just STOPS mid-beat. I would listen to my heart STOP every minute, at night, while trying to get to sleep.
And like I said, I can find no real rhyme or reason to the bad sessions. I mean, I'm on this site for the methamphetamine I found and have utterly fucked myself with.. You'd think that would cause some heart rhythm issues, but everything's smooth as can be.
I was also a heavy drinker for many years, and low oh potassium on several blood tests. No relation. Fat, thin, cooking vegetarian, not eating at all on meth, chain-smoking couch sloth, non-smoking gym goer, they don't seem to care.
Good luck, tell the doc what he can do with his advice if he blows you off.
A burning sensation inthe middle of the chest sounds like my garbage stomach. For example one time it was so bad injust sat in bed trying to sleep in my 21st birthday.
I eventually had it so bad when they asknwhat is wrong i said i am dying i am having a heartattack i am going to die. Only for them to send me out and tell me im fine and give me a acid reducer
Supplement make it worse for me to as well as meds.
Also antianxiety meds make it go away xanax, diphenhydramine, hydroxyzine
Im not a doctor but is it possible the dpla is irritating your stomach if your taking 2 700mg or even one
Amino acids have a base group and a carboxylic acid group
In your stomach the ph is low so it has a nh2 group becomes nh3 but the carboxylic acid group still is protonated
Which is bssically a fancy way of saying cooh is what makes vinegar burn
Mol mass of acetic acid is 60
Mol mass phenylalanine is 160
Therefore 1400 mg of phenylalanine has roughly the same number of carboxylic groups in cooh+ at very low ph llike in your stomach of 1400/2.5 of like 560 mg of acetic acid
Vinegar is 5 percent acid
Therefore you might get the burning in your chest similar to like a table spoon of vinegar or so
I eventually had it so bad when they asknwhat is wrong i said i am dying i am having a heartattack i am going to die. Only for them to send me out and tell me im fine and give me a acid reducer
Supplement make it worse for me to as well as meds.
Also antianxiety meds make it go away xanax, diphenhydramine, hydroxyzine
Im not a doctor but is it possible the dpla is irritating your stomach if your taking 2 700mg or even one
Amino acids have a base group and a carboxylic acid group
In your stomach the ph is low so it has a nh2 group becomes nh3 but the carboxylic acid group still is protonated
Which is bssically a fancy way of saying cooh is what makes vinegar burn
Mol mass of acetic acid is 60
Mol mass phenylalanine is 160
Therefore 1400 mg of phenylalanine has roughly the same number of carboxylic groups in cooh+ at very low ph llike in your stomach of 1400/2.5 of like 560 mg of acetic acid
Vinegar is 5 percent acid
Therefore you might get the burning in your chest similar to like a table spoon of vinegar or so
Scrofula
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Not arguing with conclusion, just chem pedantry:
You have to take into account the form of the stuff you take. Pharms are adjusted or buffered as the salt of an acid or base, which is why you'll see "dot HCl" on the package sometimes. It just means they adjusted the final pH by adding acid to it, either for synthesis and purification or to go easier on your stomach.
You can't be sure the pH without knowing it's exact state, and the additives (not to mention your stomach varies a lot in volume and acidity). For instance, the "sodium" in monosodium glutamate, means one of the two acids is ionized (and needs a counter ion to crystallize). And of course, with supplements it might be all sawdust anyway.
Rx grade phen. comes in a non-ionized form, http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/78019?lang=en®ion=US and dissolving that in water wouldn't change the pH much at all. It would then even act as a buffer.
I'd be more concerned about taking this as a supplement and wasting money, if diet soda is cheaper (all that aspartame is full of phenyalanine).
Scrofula
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You OK?
Sure you didn't take niacin by mistake?
Maybe a neighbor can drive you to urgent care or something.
Unregulated. Could be an allergic rxn to the lawn clippings it's cut with, for all we know.
Yea im fine i get it everytime i take my meds and domt eat i dont why i said supplements i think it is all the binders and stuff though becayse i feel it before they could possibly take effect and normally i just ignore it or slowly eat till it goes away.
Ya i take them for multiple suicide attempts major depression and i went from yearly hospitalizations from attempting suicide to none in years so i kinda kinda deal with it. Its just kinda oo my skins red i feel burning in my chest actually its almost just like niacin. Thats how i look like i just ate a hot pepper. At first i actually thought i was having panic attacks and racing heart for seemingly no reason but it turns out i noticed it immediately after i swallow the pills. Well before they could do anything almost like a what is this? Do i reject it up? I actually think most people would puke but i am able to supress it because i know it is helpful
Scrofula
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Well, I hate to suggest anything against it if it's stopping those hospitalizations, but then, something's not right here, and you could be doing serious harm.
I can't tell where you live, but are you seeing a therapist/psychiatrist? Does she know about your reactions?
Speaking of peppers, actually, back when I drank like a fish, and still drank wine like a sophisticated gentleman, (but before it looked like Niagara, cause I guess hot gin under the carseat does NOT do this) I would get a pretty good ulcer going, and a bit of anything at the wrong time could knock me down in pain, kind of similar. Maybe want to try some Pepcid at night?
Drink_Tea_Love_Cat
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some new conclusions and theories
OK, sorry for lack of response - I now have come to some clearer conclusions and have some more infos. Comments are appreciated.
Went to doc, listened to heart, looked at me - said it didn't sound like an ectopic and my heart sounded nice and strong and regular. BP was a "bit high", HR was 73 - and I was anxious, so 73 not too bad IMO.
Had an ECG anyways, just a normal one, not 24 hour. Came back fine and normal. Dr says - it's anxiety.
But, I had a mega panic attack the day before, triggered by I don't know what.
I also now realise that I have intermittent twitches over my body, and the "ectopic" is probably muscle twitching in my chest. I just focused on that one and ignored the other twitches. I also have 24/7 twitching in my right calf, and some intermittent tremors. I get some fast tremors that come and go on my face, neck and left side. Also some squirming feelings.
I also have near 24/7 dizzyness, it gets worse when excited, anxious, angry etc. Exercise can help it go away.
All these can be symptoms of "just anxiety". They also point to nerve issues, which is one and the same with anxiety on many levels. MIND/BODY...
Evidence 1
I took more CBD oil for a few days, and one morning after woke up and had medium tremor in left hand/wrist for about 10 seconds, index fingers + other middle started spazzing out.
I need to point out one more time that DLPA - the D form in particular, is known to have lasting effects for 3-4 weeks therapeutically (and that doesn't mean that there is no more action after that). D forms are long lasting and many are toxic, I guess they make fundamental changes to proteins - I don't have the source right now sorry, but I am still feeling the effects from this I am certain. I spent some days walking around feeling high just after exercising or having a nice night with family etc. DLPA inhibits break down of these happy chemicals, and seems to for a long time.
DLPA and anti psychotics are known to cause and worsen tardive dyskinesia... AFAIK I have some early suggestive symptoms of early TD due to some dopaminergic action going on between the DLPA and the CBD.
Evidence 2
I took 200mg theanine, with some lemon balm, and I went into overdrive. Possibly on the edge of seizure. Walking in sunlight calmed me down a bit, but for about an hour or 2 I was in a very bad place, it was intensely physiological, worse than the anxiety of the DLPA night. I didn't measure my heart rate but it was very high.
Paradoxical reaction due to inability to break down dopamine or some such?
I then traced my previous mega panic attack and mania episode to a day of drinking tea and decaffinated green tea to get some extra theanine, but who knows it may have been "all in my mind". I doubt it.
Anyone who believes this is not a legitimate reaction to theanine, just google - some people have paradoxical reactions to things because their chemistry is messed up.
Evidence 3
I have numbness, tingling - "peripheral neuropathy" basically, since the DLPA and especially after the theanine and stress induced episodes.
Aspartame is linked to peripheral neuropathy.
Evidence 4
I've had these brain zap things for years and never knew what they were. I now started to realise they are nerves on the outside, not in my brain. So, I have pre-existing nerve damage from a toxic drug episode years ago, and they DLPA (+CBD?) combo has made it worse. Excitotoxicity, excess glutamate, inflammation, NMDA upregulation perhaps (I'm getting out of my depth here but feel free to elaborate on these ideas if you like).
I have discovered that anti inflammatories reduce the discomfort in my left hand side head and reduce the "brain zaps". I basically have brain or nerve inflammation already. Most of the tremors have occurred on my left hand side. Most of the supposed "ectopic beats" were on the left hand side or middle of chest.
The last piece of hypothesis, and I won't cite all of the evidence because it gets boring, is unproven and borders on OCD health anxiety - is that I have elevated copper levels and have done for some time. Much of my symptoms and reactions to drugs and in particular DLPA (+CBD) point to that being a possiblity. I'll just say I've had excessive stressors over the years, new copper taps in my bathroom that I drink out of all the time, and have eaten an insane amount of dark chocolate. Around +1 year of the time of the taps installation and the increased chocolate intake, I was very stressed and very busy, and I had my first major toxic drug episode that triggered the brain zaps and high anxiety I have had til this day.
I consistently have responded to drugs in a highly sensitive way over the last 5 years, which all point to an inability to break them down in a normal manner. My biochemistry is weird, could be copper related among other things.
Conclusion
So I have some sort of nerve damage and a messed up biochemistry... I'm going to have some biochemical/mineral tests done to start to figure out where the imbalance is. I should have done this years ago - I've been running around therapists and psychiatrists for 4 years trying to figure this out...
Ideally I want to repair my system and get rid of the tremors and twitches, brain zaps and peripheral neuropathy. Brain zaps and anxiety seem possible to deal with especially now I see the link with inflammation, and as this is all part of a nervous disorder or "anxiety disorder", one would hope the other symptoms go away too.
Any thoughts on this? Help and advice would be interesting on my ideas. I'm sorry but I'm not the type of guy to post scientific sources to all this, but I've been on my phone researching for over a week and also looking at other case studies etc... Also there's not exactly any info that's been researched on the interactions between "entourage" CBD and DLPA. Only standard antipsychotics...
I don't log in much at the moment as I'm trying to avoid triggering more health anxiety until I'm strong enough, so forgive me if I'm slow to reply.
And please don't go posting "dizzyness + nerve issues + X = Y disease", I know I am at elevated risk of many things right now, but I'm trying to be rational and cautious about jumping to conclusions. I will visit my doc and probably a neurologist soon too.
Thanks
OK, sorry for lack of response - I now have come to some clearer conclusions and have some more infos. Comments are appreciated.
Went to doc, listened to heart, looked at me - said it didn't sound like an ectopic and my heart sounded nice and strong and regular. BP was a "bit high", HR was 73 - and I was anxious, so 73 not too bad IMO.
Had an ECG anyways, just a normal one, not 24 hour. Came back fine and normal. Dr says - it's anxiety.
But, I had a mega panic attack the day before, triggered by I don't know what.
I also now realise that I have intermittent twitches over my body, and the "ectopic" is probably muscle twitching in my chest. I just focused on that one and ignored the other twitches. I also have 24/7 twitching in my right calf, and some intermittent tremors. I get some fast tremors that come and go on my face, neck and left side. Also some squirming feelings.
I also have near 24/7 dizzyness, it gets worse when excited, anxious, angry etc. Exercise can help it go away.
All these can be symptoms of "just anxiety". They also point to nerve issues, which is one and the same with anxiety on many levels. MIND/BODY...
Evidence 1
I took more CBD oil for a few days, and one morning after woke up and had medium tremor in left hand/wrist for about 10 seconds, index fingers + other middle started spazzing out.
I need to point out one more time that DLPA - the D form in particular, is known to have lasting effects for 3-4 weeks therapeutically (and that doesn't mean that there is no more action after that). D forms are long lasting and many are toxic, I guess they make fundamental changes to proteins - I don't have the source right now sorry, but I am still feeling the effects from this I am certain. I spent some days walking around feeling high just after exercising or having a nice night with family etc. DLPA inhibits break down of these happy chemicals, and seems to for a long time.
DLPA and anti psychotics are known to cause and worsen tardive dyskinesia... AFAIK I have some early suggestive symptoms of early TD due to some dopaminergic action going on between the DLPA and the CBD.
Evidence 2
I took 200mg theanine, with some lemon balm, and I went into overdrive. Possibly on the edge of seizure. Walking in sunlight calmed me down a bit, but for about an hour or 2 I was in a very bad place, it was intensely physiological, worse than the anxiety of the DLPA night. I didn't measure my heart rate but it was very high.
Paradoxical reaction due to inability to break down dopamine or some such?
I then traced my previous mega panic attack and mania episode to a day of drinking tea and decaffinated green tea to get some extra theanine, but who knows it may have been "all in my mind". I doubt it.
Anyone who believes this is not a legitimate reaction to theanine, just google - some people have paradoxical reactions to things because their chemistry is messed up.
Evidence 3
I have numbness, tingling - "peripheral neuropathy" basically, since the DLPA and especially after the theanine and stress induced episodes.
Aspartame is linked to peripheral neuropathy.
Evidence 4
I've had these brain zap things for years and never knew what they were. I now started to realise they are nerves on the outside, not in my brain. So, I have pre-existing nerve damage from a toxic drug episode years ago, and they DLPA (+CBD?) combo has made it worse. Excitotoxicity, excess glutamate, inflammation, NMDA upregulation perhaps (I'm getting out of my depth here but feel free to elaborate on these ideas if you like).
I have discovered that anti inflammatories reduce the discomfort in my left hand side head and reduce the "brain zaps". I basically have brain or nerve inflammation already. Most of the tremors have occurred on my left hand side. Most of the supposed "ectopic beats" were on the left hand side or middle of chest.
The last piece of hypothesis, and I won't cite all of the evidence because it gets boring, is unproven and borders on OCD health anxiety - is that I have elevated copper levels and have done for some time. Much of my symptoms and reactions to drugs and in particular DLPA (+CBD) point to that being a possiblity. I'll just say I've had excessive stressors over the years, new copper taps in my bathroom that I drink out of all the time, and have eaten an insane amount of dark chocolate. Around +1 year of the time of the taps installation and the increased chocolate intake, I was very stressed and very busy, and I had my first major toxic drug episode that triggered the brain zaps and high anxiety I have had til this day.
I consistently have responded to drugs in a highly sensitive way over the last 5 years, which all point to an inability to break them down in a normal manner. My biochemistry is weird, could be copper related among other things.
Conclusion
So I have some sort of nerve damage and a messed up biochemistry... I'm going to have some biochemical/mineral tests done to start to figure out where the imbalance is. I should have done this years ago - I've been running around therapists and psychiatrists for 4 years trying to figure this out...
Ideally I want to repair my system and get rid of the tremors and twitches, brain zaps and peripheral neuropathy. Brain zaps and anxiety seem possible to deal with especially now I see the link with inflammation, and as this is all part of a nervous disorder or "anxiety disorder", one would hope the other symptoms go away too.
Any thoughts on this? Help and advice would be interesting on my ideas. I'm sorry but I'm not the type of guy to post scientific sources to all this, but I've been on my phone researching for over a week and also looking at other case studies etc... Also there's not exactly any info that's been researched on the interactions between "entourage" CBD and DLPA. Only standard antipsychotics...
I don't log in much at the moment as I'm trying to avoid triggering more health anxiety until I'm strong enough, so forgive me if I'm slow to reply.
And please don't go posting "dizzyness + nerve issues + X = Y disease", I know I am at elevated risk of many things right now, but I'm trying to be rational and cautious about jumping to conclusions. I will visit my doc and probably a neurologist soon too.
Thanks
Scrofula
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Well, I'm glad you're OK, sorry I didn't reply sooner, I got distracted by another d1nach near-death experience.
I don't know what to tell you. I know that if I search pubmed.com for "phenylalanine supplementation anxiety" I don't get any results. I know that eating even a slice of toast will have as much Phe as a supplement. (http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/info/books-phds/books/foodfacts/html/data/data2e.html). So I doubt there's any interaction between it and CBD. As for the D-form, it doesn't seem to have much activity, barely gets into your brain.
Then again, obsession with things is a symptom of dopaminergic excess. Your anxiety might be more obsessional. I'd try quitting the supplements for a good long while, and consider increasing the CBD dose. I don't want to be dismissive by saying "obsessional" but there's a possibility none of your symptoms are related, and there is no underlying pathology. Trust me, I've been using meth daily for a few months, I know how that makes conspiratorial connections.
I mean, I get each of your symptoms on occasion, including brain zaps. For those, I think the medical community knows fuck-all. You see them show up a lot with SSRI discontinuation. So the docs say, well it's a serotonin thing. Somewhere else, it's a somewhere-else thing. Unfortunately some mysteries can't be solved.
I don't know what to tell you. I know that if I search pubmed.com for "phenylalanine supplementation anxiety" I don't get any results. I know that eating even a slice of toast will have as much Phe as a supplement. (http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/info/books-phds/books/foodfacts/html/data/data2e.html). So I doubt there's any interaction between it and CBD. As for the D-form, it doesn't seem to have much activity, barely gets into your brain.
Then again, obsession with things is a symptom of dopaminergic excess. Your anxiety might be more obsessional. I'd try quitting the supplements for a good long while, and consider increasing the CBD dose. I don't want to be dismissive by saying "obsessional" but there's a possibility none of your symptoms are related, and there is no underlying pathology. Trust me, I've been using meth daily for a few months, I know how that makes conspiratorial connections.
I mean, I get each of your symptoms on occasion, including brain zaps. For those, I think the medical community knows fuck-all. You see them show up a lot with SSRI discontinuation. So the docs say, well it's a serotonin thing. Somewhere else, it's a somewhere-else thing. Unfortunately some mysteries can't be solved.
Drink_Tea_Love_Cat
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OK - I avoided logging in for ages cos this was all too distressing, forgive me for not replying until now. I was kind of hoping there would be more of a discussion.
Coming to terms with it all now. I know what these threads read like - obsessive/anxious person worrying about their symptoms and making it all worse. I am far more collected and rational now, but symptoms continue.
Went to GP - had full bloods, have been referred to a Neurologist for 4th Sept.
Found out I have Gilbert's Syndrome, a slightly dysfunctional liver, which explains a lot of my sensitivities to drugs and alcohol in general - I never had been one for high doses of anything.
The anxiety is obsessional for sure. But the DLPA and later the Theanine definitely had their own sort of physiological effects. I can tell you neither were pleasant, and no amount of typical relaxation techniques sorted me out for days or weeks after.
Symptoms of nerve damage continue, I have a 24/7 tremor down my back, some call it an "internal tremor". Peripheral numbness, tingling, sharp pains - all kind of along the lines of fibromyalgia.
Basically I believe some sort of toxicity plus concurrent toxic events and a weak liver led to this. I strongly believe anxiety is a physiological problem, not a thinking problem. So it doesn't really matter what comes first, the chicken or the egg, it's all a feedback loop. Training your thinking and your relaxation skills will make physiological changes over time so you become less anxious. Toxic drug events or just a bad dose of drugs in general will make sudden physiological changes which mess up your ability to control your thinking or your anxiety.
I'm not saying DLPA or Theanine are demons on their own, but I am saying that with my brain chemistry, whatever is up with it after everything I've put myself through, I had some pretty adverse reactions to them both and am still feeling the damage now. I have however, also read of people suffering with anxiety alone, PTSD, fibro etc, who all have similar symptoms to mine. I believe their toxicity may have come from any number of other sources plus their well cemented anxiety/obsessional fear and trauma loops and physiological changes in their brain and nervous system.
My main hope now is with long term healthy living and relaxation, I can heal my nervous system.
Trying to learn to self regulate through some very experiential therapy, and trying to cultivate a gabaminergic system again, without drugs if possible. Any advice would be appreciated. Also my dopamine system is totally shot, I'm still getting this random euphoria after exercise that leaves me very uncomfortable, and very sad I have to avoid tea now due to the theanine. Have considered iboga in a year or 2 depending on my progress in the next few months. Apart from that maybe low dose Lithium.
Coming to terms with it all now. I know what these threads read like - obsessive/anxious person worrying about their symptoms and making it all worse. I am far more collected and rational now, but symptoms continue.
Went to GP - had full bloods, have been referred to a Neurologist for 4th Sept.
Found out I have Gilbert's Syndrome, a slightly dysfunctional liver, which explains a lot of my sensitivities to drugs and alcohol in general - I never had been one for high doses of anything.
The anxiety is obsessional for sure. But the DLPA and later the Theanine definitely had their own sort of physiological effects. I can tell you neither were pleasant, and no amount of typical relaxation techniques sorted me out for days or weeks after.
Symptoms of nerve damage continue, I have a 24/7 tremor down my back, some call it an "internal tremor". Peripheral numbness, tingling, sharp pains - all kind of along the lines of fibromyalgia.
Basically I believe some sort of toxicity plus concurrent toxic events and a weak liver led to this. I strongly believe anxiety is a physiological problem, not a thinking problem. So it doesn't really matter what comes first, the chicken or the egg, it's all a feedback loop. Training your thinking and your relaxation skills will make physiological changes over time so you become less anxious. Toxic drug events or just a bad dose of drugs in general will make sudden physiological changes which mess up your ability to control your thinking or your anxiety.
I'm not saying DLPA or Theanine are demons on their own, but I am saying that with my brain chemistry, whatever is up with it after everything I've put myself through, I had some pretty adverse reactions to them both and am still feeling the damage now. I have however, also read of people suffering with anxiety alone, PTSD, fibro etc, who all have similar symptoms to mine. I believe their toxicity may have come from any number of other sources plus their well cemented anxiety/obsessional fear and trauma loops and physiological changes in their brain and nervous system.
My main hope now is with long term healthy living and relaxation, I can heal my nervous system.
Trying to learn to self regulate through some very experiential therapy, and trying to cultivate a gabaminergic system again, without drugs if possible. Any advice would be appreciated. Also my dopamine system is totally shot, I'm still getting this random euphoria after exercise that leaves me very uncomfortable, and very sad I have to avoid tea now due to the theanine. Have considered iboga in a year or 2 depending on my progress in the next few months. Apart from that maybe low dose Lithium.
Scrofula
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Well I read this whole thing: UGTLecture and understand why I didn't want to be a pharmacist.
Well it blows they can't even predict what might be a substrate of UGT1A1, which could leave you forever anxious about things building up unexcreted in your body. Things like the toxins the natural foods people talk about.
But it won't, right? Because you know things like DLPA and theanine, being amino acids, aren't going to be UGT targets. Most things that are targets of UGT enzymes, can get taken care of by all the other methods of elimination. And with this syndrome, we're talking about one form of a dozen in your liver.
In fact, I learned today that cats don't have your possibly defective subform of UGT1A1 to begin with:
Molecular genetic basis for deficient acetaminophen glucuronidation by cats: UGT1A6 is a pseudogene, and evidence for reduced diversity of expressed hepatic UGT1A isoforms.
But you need some therapist time, in my unlearned opinion, to deal with the anxiety.
For instance, random euphoria is usually a plus for people. I'd exercise if that happened.
If your dopamine system was shot, you would look like my uncle with Parkinson's, or frozen in place, or in the other direction, hallucinating vivid shadow people and conversing with voices.
I also think you'd be fine drinking tea, as the trace amounts of theanine don't require any bilirubin or UGT1A1.
I'll add that I really think it a bad idea to try a powerful often illegal hallucinogen (iboga) when you aren't suffering a debilitating heroin addiction. There are other NMDA antagonists out there besides that and ketamine, like nitrous or the DXM in cough syrup. If you want kappa-opiate receptor agonism, well Salvia is also hallucinogenic, or you could try breathing a lot of menthol.
And lithium is terrible for you, and will ruin your kidneys in the long run. Be very careful with that one.
Bottom line is you're OK and you'll be fine.
Well it blows they can't even predict what might be a substrate of UGT1A1, which could leave you forever anxious about things building up unexcreted in your body. Things like the toxins the natural foods people talk about.
But it won't, right? Because you know things like DLPA and theanine, being amino acids, aren't going to be UGT targets. Most things that are targets of UGT enzymes, can get taken care of by all the other methods of elimination. And with this syndrome, we're talking about one form of a dozen in your liver.
In fact, I learned today that cats don't have your possibly defective subform of UGT1A1 to begin with:
Molecular genetic basis for deficient acetaminophen glucuronidation by cats: UGT1A6 is a pseudogene, and evidence for reduced diversity of expressed hepatic UGT1A isoforms.
But you need some therapist time, in my unlearned opinion, to deal with the anxiety.
For instance, random euphoria is usually a plus for people. I'd exercise if that happened.
If your dopamine system was shot, you would look like my uncle with Parkinson's, or frozen in place, or in the other direction, hallucinating vivid shadow people and conversing with voices.
I also think you'd be fine drinking tea, as the trace amounts of theanine don't require any bilirubin or UGT1A1.
I'll add that I really think it a bad idea to try a powerful often illegal hallucinogen (iboga) when you aren't suffering a debilitating heroin addiction. There are other NMDA antagonists out there besides that and ketamine, like nitrous or the DXM in cough syrup. If you want kappa-opiate receptor agonism, well Salvia is also hallucinogenic, or you could try breathing a lot of menthol.
And lithium is terrible for you, and will ruin your kidneys in the long run. Be very careful with that one.
Bottom line is you're OK and you'll be fine.
Drink_Tea_Love_Cat
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2016
- Messages
- 167
Thanks - bottom line is, I'm not OK, but I'm alive and it's possible to find a quality of life beyond this. So I should ultimately be fine
Therapy alone is not enough for something that seems to be a physiological problem. I have come to realise that most mental health is manifest in the body somewhere. These are not thinking problems, these are physiological problems that experience and thinking over time can worsen and make further more ingrained physiological changes. Stress states affect so many parts of the body, and in turn create a feedback loop.
I do have tremors, I do have a 24/7 "internal tremor", I may have to learn to live with it. You might as well call it mild Parkinson's. But I am thankful it's not the real deal and it's not progressing.
It's interesting what you say about being "forever anxious about thing building up in your body". I never considered it before until a couple months ago. I do believe there may be some issue with heavy metals like copper/manganese, when coupled with the years of drug use and stress and my Gilbert's liver issue. The picture kind of makes sense. The DLPA/Theanine alone weren't going to suddenly cause those reactions, there's clearly something going on already and probably has been for some time.
Random euphoria was good for a bit. But then I realised it was causing me to be disoriented and that occasionally became too much and bordered on mania. Also mental confusion is not really a plus if you don't want it, no matter how euphoric you are. It's hard work understanding what's going on here, but it's the kind of thing that no specialist is going to really figure out for me. I don't want to buy into the natural food quackery, but I believe there is some points that make sense about diet and toxins for my case.
Drugs overload liver, liver can't process toxins. Makes sense. I'll post back here later if I start to find anything conclusive instead of just speculating.
I did do a mens group thing last weekend all weekend, tribal shouting mad shit. It was pretty ridiculous, but I can tell you it was fucking amazing to let that shit out.
Drink_Tea_Love_Cat
Bluelighter
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- Dec 25, 2016
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- 167
even low dose lithium? I am considering using it medium term, a year or 2. I would use it over any pharma any day.
Scrofula
Bluelight Crew
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- Apr 27, 2017
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I don't know what doses are required; obviously there's lithium present in the environment. My understanding is therapeutic doses are enough to damage kidneys after like decades of use, not short term.
But the main problem with it is the narrow therapeutic window, lethal overdose, and the fact it's a mineral. So your levels will change by things like sweating and how much water you drink. Those together make it a risky med. But I'll let wikipedia tell you:
"Those who use lithium should receive regular serum level tests and should monitor thyroid and kidney function for abnormalities, as it interferes with the regulation of sodium and water levels in the body, and can cause dehydration. Dehydration, which is compounded by heat, can result in increasing lithium levels. The dehydration is due to lithium inhibition of the action of antidiuretic hormone, which normally enables the kidney to reabsorb water from urine. This causes an inability to concentrate urine, leading to consequent loss of body water and thirst."
Not only that but just changing elevation can effect it (although I guess that's more important here than in the UK).
Anyway, it just doesn't seem like one of those make-your-own gelcaps kind of med.
But the main problem with it is the narrow therapeutic window, lethal overdose, and the fact it's a mineral. So your levels will change by things like sweating and how much water you drink. Those together make it a risky med. But I'll let wikipedia tell you:
"Those who use lithium should receive regular serum level tests and should monitor thyroid and kidney function for abnormalities, as it interferes with the regulation of sodium and water levels in the body, and can cause dehydration. Dehydration, which is compounded by heat, can result in increasing lithium levels. The dehydration is due to lithium inhibition of the action of antidiuretic hormone, which normally enables the kidney to reabsorb water from urine. This causes an inability to concentrate urine, leading to consequent loss of body water and thirst."
Not only that but just changing elevation can effect it (although I guess that's more important here than in the UK).
Anyway, it just doesn't seem like one of those make-your-own gelcaps kind of med.