Addiction Is Not a Disease and Rehab Is Bullshit

[Jabberwocky]

Meeeeeee great book. And the vast, vast majority of Americans treatment is shit compared to the care provided in more mature cultures, so I tend to agree with him.

 

[My3sons]

The medical industry is all about money. Most Dr.s, not all, honestly don't give a shit about their patients. It kills me when they come in to our office and want his opinion on what they need. It's always going to be the most expensive treatment. People fail to realize it's a business like everything else. They put so much trust into him and honestly believe he cares. As soon as they walk out the door he's all over us to sell, sell, sell! An example: all gastros will sell lap band and weight loss surgery based on the impression of perfection after. They tell the patients when the weight is gone they can get all the extra skin removed by a plastic through insurance. Completely untrue.... then they come into our office and become heartbroken. You literally need feet of hanging skin and many infections in order for insurance to consider it. Kinda got side tracked but the point is that the industry is a joke in the US. What happens when you can't afford insurance like myself? They won't touch you! Nothing is done for the good of the patients. It's all about the money.

 

[CfZrx]

Meeeeeee great book. And the vast, vast majority of Americans treatment is shit compared to the care provided in more mature cultures, so I tend to agree with him.

I have been an intern in a USA rehab facility for most of 2016 and get to see firsthand how it all works. One counselor told me that in ten years she has had less than ten people who call her and let her know things turned out well. I like the idea he presents about giving addicts dignity with housing, free drugs, and injection sites.

 

[Ne0]

Thats exactly what I'm thinking. I've quited two years of hard use of strong opioids and its not disease, its about habit psychical addiction. Never ever have I felt I had some disease, I felt that I was psychically addicted to opiates when I didn't take them I felt sick, how the hell is that a "disease"? People who say addiction is disease mock people who have real disease like cancer. Drug addiction is not disease, the need to experience something what feels good over and over again is totally natural for human. You look the western rehabs that think addiction is disease, about 95% will fail at quiting, because they think addiction as disease. If you want to quit using drugs you just must to stop using them, I used opiates to regulate my mood swings, now when I have mood swing I might feel that I should get some opiates to make my mood better, but because I realize that it might go back to addiction I will not take them because I hate being depended on something. Where the hell is this "disease" in that? It's all about human condition need to avoid bad emotion and go toward nice emotion.

Also I think most of western rehab is bullshit, I quited opiates by myself and with help with other drugs (mainly amphetamine and GHB) which I quited after WD's, cold turkey in my mind is not successful way to quit opiates.

 

[bltc]

Article = great read, thanks! I dont have it all figured out & find that a lot of this is about semantics. So for me: Addiction = isolation, regret, +/- handcuffs.

 

[Moreaux]

Good article. I do agree with most of it with respect to many rehabs are inadequate in their "treatment". Even though I am not against 12 step programs, it disgusts me that so many facilities are based upon that model as they don't work for everyone. I do owe my sobriety to AA simply because there were no other resources in my town and it was a great way to learn about other resources, however, working the steps didn't get me sober. I feel like 12 step programs keep people hostage - they teach the basics on addiction and provide enough support to keep people in the community accountable and sober, but they do not teach people how to move beyond their addiction so they end up always dependent on the program, which I find bothersome. I also don't appreciate the spirituality piece.

I also agree with addiction not being a disease in an of itself, to some extent. I feel that addiction is a symptom of a larger mental health issue, and it's the larger issue that needs to be addressed so the addict is no longer compelled to self medicate. However, if the addict is left to use certain substances (specifically think of alcohol and benzos), I think later stage use absolutely falls under the disease model because of phisiological changes that take place in the brain, but that's not necessarily addiction as a disease, merely a consequent - dementia for instance.

Regarding the medical system in America - it's absolutely disgusting. I have lost all faith in it. I have been fortunate to have had some caring doctors but their hands are also tied. We need a complete overhaul. Prices on drugs, supplies, and w equipment need to be capped (looking at the epipen and now narcan), what doctor's can charge need to be capped, and pharmaceuticals should not have patents.

I had foot surgery earlier this year. I ruined my feet with ridiculous shoes and ballet and they were ugly. They hurt, but the surgery wasn't going to do anything for the pain, I just wanted pretty feet. I had two toes on each feet worked on, bones removed and pins inserted. The surgery took three hours - nothing major. I received a bill because they reported my social incorrectly to my insurance so they were going to hold me accountable for payment. I nearly fainted - $20,500 just to the facility, not including the specialist. I was also charged over $500 for gauze...$500 for two rolls of gauze which cost less than $5 at the store. There is something seriously wrong with the system and it's going to collapse if it is not changed.

 

[Ne0]

Rehabs are useless, I've quit everything by myself. In here rehab centers don't even offer any help (like benzos or lyricas for opiate WD), so I bought medicine from black market. If you believe addiction being disease you are sheep who can't think for yourself. NA/AA are totally useless what use there is for gathering to talk about drugs? You need to move on in you're life.

 

[Jabberwocky]

If I didn't know better I'd say you are trolling this thread Ne0. Take it elsewhere.

 

[Ne0]

If I didn't know better I'd say you are trolling this thread Ne0. Take it elsewhere.

I'm not trolling I actually think that way. I just don't think addiction is disease, ofc in long term use any drug will change brains that it seeks the drug, and also with many drugs you´re body gets dependent on it. But thats just the way drugs works, even SSRIs and antipsyhotics works that way even that they dont produce any nice effects. The urge to use drugs again is totally normal and natural for human mind, people seek to eat foods that cause great pleasure again and again, thats why people like trashfood, people seek to have sex again because it products great pleasure, people like to listen their favorite music because it realease dopamine. Everything that releases dopamine people will want to do it again, when it becomes problem then you need teach youre brains not to go to do that again. I can't see any disease in that, disease is something that comes and goes worse, but the need to do pleasurable things again and again have always been part of human nature.

 

[2minuteSnoots]

You gotta find the right rehab treatment for it to work, I'm not religious so 12step backfired with, but works wonders for some people, but sitting in a AA/NA is extremely fuckin helpful, I mean your sitting with people that got the same problems as you. I would say addiction is more of a condition than a disease. I also think it's heriditary, I'm a 5th generation opiate abuser, that has loomed over my head everyday since my little boy was born, I hope he's stronger than the rest of the family tree

 

[Ne0]

You gotta find the right rehab treatment for it to work, I'm not religious so 12step backfired with, but works wonders for some people, but sitting in a AA/NA is extremely fuckin helpful, I mean your sitting with people that got the same problems as you. I would say addiction is more of a condition than a disease. I also think it's heriditary, I'm a 5th generation opiate abuser, that has loomed over my head everyday since my little boy was born, I hope he's stronger than the rest of the family tree

The thing is I dont need rehab, and Im not interested to talk about drugs or anything other in AA/NA. Everytime I had problems with any drug I quited it by myself why should I go to anywhere?

 

[2minuteSnoots]

"The question is frequently asked: Why does a man become a drug addict?
The answer is that he usually does not intend to become an addict. You don’t wake up one morning and decide to be a drug addict. It takes at least three months’ shooting twice a day to get any habit at all. And you don’t really know what junk sickness is until you have had several habits. It took me almost six months to get my first habit, and then the withdrawal symptoms were mild. I think it no exaggeration to say it takes about a year and several hundred injections to make an addict."- William S. Burroughs

Im glad your confident in your will power, just be carefull or you'll never realize one day that confidence turned into the little voice backstabbing reasoning in your head. Eventually it will, it may take years, but it happens to us all. Have you ever seen a full blown herion addict or alcoholic go into WDs? They don't get "sick" or depressed, they'll die right if they don't get a fix.. I saw a junkie fall out up in Vermont years ago, some lady called 911, another junkie started a rig right there beside us, this chick was calling him all sorts of trash and he never broke concentration. He hopped up and stuck the guy that layed out right in the neck, slapped his face and took off running. We freaked, thought he just murdered this dude, but paramedics told us he saved his life, a shot to his arm wouldn't have circulated fast enough to save him. He was awake when they wheeled him off.

rehabs can help restore your life.... Detox centers can save it

 

[Ne0]

"The question is frequently asked: Why does a man become a drug addict?
The answer is that he usually does not intend to become an addict. You don’t wake up one morning and decide to be a drug addict. It takes at least three months’ shooting twice a day to get any habit at all. And you don’t really know what junk sickness is until you have had several habits. It took me almost six months to get my first habit, and then the withdrawal symptoms were mild. I think it no exaggeration to say it takes about a year and several hundred injections to make an addict."- William S. Burroughs

Im glad your confident in your will power, just be carefull or you'll never realize one day that confidence turned into the little voice backstabbing reasoning in your head. Eventually it will, it may take years, but it happens to us all. Have you ever seen a full blown herion addict or alcoholic go into WDs? They don't get "sick" or depressed, they'll die right if they don't get a fix.. I saw a junkie fall out up in Vermont years ago, some lady called 911, another junkie started a rig right there beside us, this chick was calling him all sorts of trash and he never broke concentration. He hopped up and stuck the guy that layed out right in the neck, slapped his face and took off running. We freaked, thought he just murdered this dude, but paramedics told us he saved his life, a shot to his arm wouldn't have circulated fast enough to save him. He was awake when they wheeled him off.

rehabs can help restore your life.... Detox centers can save it

I dont buy this. I myself decided to become opiate addict, in that point I thought using opiates every day is good for me bause I had lots of mental problem, and believe me if i didnt start using opiates daily I would most likely kill myself. So yes I decided to get addicted to opiates. I don't think I cant get addicted. I used opiates for 3 years daily, and the wd made me hope that I die, I would have killed myself if I didn't have very useful speed and GHB on my hand, thanks to these drugs. You seem to like thinking like every people is like you? I don't have any more plans to use drugs excessively not opiates at least, If I do its not becasue of disease but because my mistake, im not blaming drugs for it. Rehabs can restore someones life but not mine, detox center don't save me but maybe it saves someone other life. I didn't say that these are useless for every people. I actually don't like addicts crying and blaming the drug. I don't have any voice in my head that telling me I don't get addicted I can quit anything for myself, why do you think so? Somehow it seems many addicts just want to blame drugs for everything and they think they are sick and have disease, no supprise that they "relapse".

 

[2minuteSnoots]

So you don't think the programs are useless?

Rehabs are useless, I've quit everything by myself. In here rehab centers don't even offer any help (like benzos or lyricas for opiate WD), so I bought medicine from black market. If you believe addiction being disease you are sheep who can't think for yourself. NA/AA are totally useless what use there is for gathering to talk about drugs? You need to move on in you're life.

This must have been a long ass typo jeez.

I was never doubting or against method to get yourself off drugs, just wanted to open your eyes a little bit too see the programs help thousands everyday. I was able to quit Benzo's without help, but would have never broke free from opiates without AA.. But it's great you would never obviously go.. I would hate too see the MAN trying to open up and talk to others about his problems just to have a simple mind like you try to bring him down. And people wonder why the West is so violent?
If you say you can beat any addiction all by yourself then cool beans bro knock yourself out. But I'm Man enough to say no fuckin way, I've been through physical addiction, this bag of bones won't hold out on another ride down those tracks.
enjoy your drugs bro, don't be a dick
USA!

 

[Jabberwocky]

Damn, I really need to learn to bite my tongue sometimes. . .

Ne0 - we are 100% on the same page now, I can see. Rehabs and detoxes rarely do more than fail patients in America, and then they end up turning around and blaming the client for relapsing! Disgusting.

I blame prohibition and the War on Drugs. Makes scapegoating drugs, making them out to be the bad guy, when in fact there is no bad guy (except perhaps the mafia, cartels and gangsters! but even they are a product of the War on Drugs) has done so, so much harm. It turns treatment into a three ring circus, making it impotent and generally counterproductive.

That all said, there are good treatments out there. They are just super hard to find. And they still have a long way to go. The state of treatment in America is pretty sad.

Play nice guys. I really, really don't want to have to close this thread.

 

[2minuteSnoots]

Damn, I really need to learn to bite my tongue sometimes. . .

Ne0 - we are 100% on the same page now, I can see. Rehabs and detoxes rarely do more than fail patients in America, and then they end up turning around and blaming the client for relapsing! Disgusting.

I blame prohibition and the War on Drugs. Makes scapegoating drugs, making them out to be the bad guy, when in fact there is no bad guy (except perhaps the mafia, cartels and gangsters! but even they are a product of the War on Drugs) has done so, so much harm. It turns treatment into a three ring circus, making it impotent and generally counterproductive.

That all said, there are good treatments out there. They are just super hard to find. And they still have a long way to go. The state of treatment in America is pretty sad.

Play nice guys. I really, really don't want to have to close this thread.

I understood what NeO was trying say, I just don't agree that the programs are completely useless, they may be a cash grab by the states, but they can help some peols

 

[Moreaux]

I understood what NeO was trying say, I just don't agree that the programs are completely useless, they may be a cash grab by the states, but they can help some peols

I agree. AA connected me to an inpatient treatment facility. When I went to that facility I learned about addiction and was kept in a controlled environment so I couldn't use. I didn't agree with a lot of their philosophies, but I was able to focus on my problems and dry out. It wasn't pleasant, it was expensive, the success rate was 5 - 10%, but it did what I needed it to do for me which was to get me sober. It also gave me unlimited access to Vivitrol which was a godsend in early recovery. I couldn't get Vivitrol any other way as insurance would t cover it and it was $4000.00 a shot per month privately. It's almost 3 years and I am still sober and still grateful for the opportunity to regain my life. I know I was lucky, and I know there are scams out there, bit there are also legitimate facilities. I think it's important to do research to choose a facility that works for you (if you have that luxury).

 

[cj]

I think alot of the problem with rehabs is the difficulty of separating the good programs that maintain a 7 percent success rate from the awful programs that struggle to get 3 percent sober. I know 4 percent seems trivial but the difference is night and day. The good programs teach you the basis for living a manageble life that you don't simply forget when you relapse. I didn't take the advice of the first rehab I went too but evertime I need to clean up I use some of the stuff I learned there which to me makes it a success. The other rehab I went too was a joke that I am still working to forget about. It made me want to never get sober.

I don't know if that awakes sense. It's a complicated issue.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Now I hear you, I think that is a legitimate point. The "good" rehabs still end up failing 93% of people, but that is a lot better than failing 96% of clients when the total pool is in the tens if not hundreds of thousands. The difference between the good and the bad could be as much as 300 more successful treatment outcomes. However, considering that these folks have a good likelihood of working in treatment themselves, and the treatment they have known as former clients most intimately is an overwhelming failure doesn't paint the most hopeful picture.

LOL now I wonder if that made any sense. It's still early it was good to sleep in today though.

 

[Moreaux]

I think alot of the problem with rehabs is the difficulty of separating the good programs that maintain a 7 percent success rate from the awful programs that struggle to get 3 percent sober. I know 4 percent seems trivial but the difference is night and day. The good programs teach you the basis for living a manageble life that you don't simply forget when you relapse. I didn't take the advice of the first rehab I went too but evertime I need to clean up I use some of the stuff I learned there which to me makes it a success. The other rehab I went too was a joke that I am still working to forget about. It made me want to never get sober.

I don't know if that awakes sense. It's a complicated issue.

Good points, however, defining what constitutes a good rehab is very subjective, unless it's an outright scam. Honestly, the one I went to was a recovery mill - very over populated primarily concerned with the bottom line. Addicts got five minutes tops with the psychiatrist, treatment was standardized for all of use, DOC or mental health issues didn't matter, we all got the same group treatment. We had counselors which we saw twice - once during admissions and once prior to leaving. Patients had to take the initiative to become educated or take advantage or resources. It was not ideal but I was desperate and figured out how to work the system early on so I was able to make my situation "about me" instead of mindlessly shuffling along with the crowd. I advised all the other patients to do the same. Their success rate is abysmal, but it worked for some of us. Having them available was certainly better than nothing.

I do think most people don't realize that it takes being very proactive in your own recovery to attain sobriety. I think a lot of people expect professional to go in and fix their lives and then get frustrated when that doesn't happen. My first experience in rehab my expectations were similar and I was pissed when I relapsed as they were supposed to "fix me." I think programs need to set expectations up front, and advertise that people will get out of the program what they put into the program.