A very dark topic...Read at your own risk.

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Frat:
1)Your first statement is what's known as circular reasoning "If you believe it is true, you'll see it is true, and when you see it is true, you'll believe it is true".
2)You seem to have placed some sort of special significance on "Faith". Faith is not some kind of magical power, It's belief in something for which there is no supporting evidence.
3)Everyone who is religious shares your 'feelings' not just Christians. Which leads to the question: "How did you determine what you felt was the Christian God, and not something else?"
4)Where do Christians get off thinking you can't be happy without God? Life if full of ups and downs, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist or whatever.
5)If you don't believe a lot of stuff in the bible, why do you bother? Is it 5% true and 95% false, or the reverse? And how did you come to your conclusion. The Resurrection is just as unrealistic as Noah's ark and talking donkeys.
6)How do we 'choose' to let Satan into our lives? Romans 5:11 Stats clearly that our decent into sin was the result of Adam, and that ALL have sinned. It's central to Christian belief that we are born miserible sinners and need to seek salvation, not the reverse.
7)Romans 13:11 NRSV: "Let every person be subject to the governing athorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those athorities that exist have been instituted by God" Now who was it that is causing War?
Skye:
1) I'm assuming you mean "Heaven" when you refer to eternal life. Lets examine that: Rev. 12:7 there was a war in heaven, 19:14 there are indeed armies in heaven, Matt: 11:12 shows heaven is constantly suffering violence, Matt 11:11 shows inequality in heaven. Matt. 24:35 says "Heaven and earth shall pass away..." I could go on, but It doesn't sound like paradise.
2)Not everyone has any sort of choice for Salvation, not everyone has heard of Jesus. And since "All have sinned" they appear to be unfairly going to hell. John 3:18 is particularly harsh in this reguards, "He that believeth not is condemned already".
Ok I'll shut up now, but if your in the mood for an email discussion my mail is [email protected]
 
Science doesnt explain anything. IT shows us how we percieve the world, but it doesnt show us how the world actually is. It is nothing but observational statistics and generalistations that we formed by our thinking. Once you get into quantum science, or the theory of chaos you see that science is only something we use in order to interact with the world. It is not an explination of the world, of the universe, and it will NEVER explain everything simply because it fails to see the unseen, and human beings can only see like 0.5% of what is in the world around us.
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"Your understanding of life extends as far as the questions your prepared to ask."
 
I can't make anyone who doesn't believe change their mind, but I suggest that anyone who is wondering read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. He used to be an atheist and when he was trying to logically explain why there couldn't be a God he discovered that there HAD to be a God. If there were no higher power, then why would we have any concept of good and bad? And why would there be a million stories around the world in African tribes and other places that Christians aren't about a god who comes down to earth in human form and dies for his people? You can believe what you want to, but remember that choosing Christianity is a big intellectual responsibility. You must be prepared to learn if you want to believe. Also, there is a lot of evil in the world. God gave us free will. From that free will, all the ways we are trying to seek happiness without God (because whether I like it or not, there is NO true happiness without God)like money and sex, they are where evil springs from. Why, then would God give us free will?? Because then we couldn't freely choose to love Him. And that's what he wanted in the first place. Evil sprang from good. I hate to sound like a bringer of doom, and I respect others' opinions. I have friends who are satanists and I never attack their views (unless they want me to!) All I am saying is that before you decide what you believe, you must think logically about it from both sides of the argument. And in my opinion the most clear and logical Christian opinion is Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. I know I do a lot of things God doesn't approve of. But He loves me anyway. And He is giving us all a chance to freely choose Him. When He comes back to earth someday (and He will), there will be no more chances to choose. Light will be dark, reason will be chaos. It will be too late.
 
I can't make anyone who doesn't believe change their mind, but I suggest that anyone who is wondering read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. He used to be an atheist and when he was trying to logically explain why there couldn't be a God he discovered that there HAD to be a God. If there were no higher power, then why would we have any concept of good and bad? And why would there be a million stories around the world in African tribes and other places that Christians aren't about a god who comes down to earth in human form and dies for his people? You can believe what you want to, but remember that choosing Christianity is a big intellectual responsibility. You must be prepared to learn if you want to believe. Also, there is a lot of evil in the world. God gave us free will. From that free will, all the ways we are trying to seek happiness without God (because whether I like it or not, there is NO true happiness without God)like money and sex, they are where evil springs from. Why, then would God give us free will?? Because then we couldn't freely choose to love Him. And that's what he wanted in the first place. Evil sprang from good. I hate to sound like a bringer of doom, and I respect others' opinions. I have friends who are satanists and I never attack their views (unless they want me to!) All I am saying is that before you decide what you believe, you must think logically about it from both sides of the argument. And in my opinion the most clear and logical Christian opinion is Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. I know I do a lot of things God doesn't approve of. But He loves me anyway. And He is giving us all a chance to freely choose Him. When He comes back to earth someday (and He will), there will be no more chances to choose. Light will be dark, reason will be chaos. It will be too late.
 
Excellent SublimeRoll!!! Ok SolarFlare6 I have no idea why you attacked me in that manner, no wait, I do know, you are trying to prove something to yourself, not to me. Lets go through these points you made one at a time....
1)The "circuler" argument you mentioned.. The only way you can know Him or feel Him is to open your heart and believe, so logically that would be the only way to know.
2)The kind of Faith I am talking about is a Spiritual and profound experience, so no its not like having faith that my football team will win the National Championship, it is a very real and tangible thing.
3)Ok, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will come to people in a way that they can understand it, so if their religon is their version of Christianity then they will recieve the Holy Spirit.
4)No matter what religion you are you are going to have good and bad times, but in a Holy persons situation they have someone to catch them when they fall, and it makes getting up a whole lot easier.
5)I believe in the basic rules in the Bible, but you have to realize that the Bible started as a bunch of Hebrew scrolls, then was translated into Greek, then into Latin, then ole King James assembled poets, theologins, and religous leaders to assemble a new Bible and put it in the vernacular. So I generally don't listen to some parts, that is where my relationship with God comes in, I know in my heart if what I am doing is right or wrong. Example; Leviticus 11:10 says that we can't eat shellfish, now who do you know that follows that one?
6)Everyday we make decisions that aren't with God's Will, like when you pass that homeless man without giving him change, getting wasted, just in general acting like the selfish people humans inherently are.
7)Good point, but what he means by that verse is that we shouldn't put too much faith in government because he is the true ruler in our lives.
Ok to round it out I will finish with a saying that my Minister used to say, "Even the Devil can use the Bible to justify his own means." I really hope that I don't come accross as a crazy zealot, I am just a mild mannered guy that likes to party and have fun, but I also know the Truth and I hope all of you skeptics will take 10 or 15 minutes out of your day to just pray with a open heart and mind, if you are right and there is no God then what harm have you done? And if there is a God then you may be suprised at what you find...
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"Nobody's romancing cause its too early for dancing, but here comes the music..."
 
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Did you guys even bother to read ANY of the other posts on the previous ten pages? We've already dissected Christianity and other myths. There is a LOT you guys don't understand about why you believe what you do.
I suggest you start here: Dead Link
Free your minds.
 
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Hey, try having an OPEN mind. That's the only way I was able to choose Christianity in the first place. Fratraver and I were not attacking anyone. We are just being logical and stating our point of view. You are all welcome to do the same. But don't openly attack us. That's really not the intellectual way to form your beliefs.
 
Oh I see, by asking you to read the previous ten pages of this post I'm attacking you, and you asking us to read Mere Christianity is a friendly gesture? So you think that by reading Mere Christianity we will all of a sudden accept Christian beliefs and disregard all the other research we have done?
I actually read the first couple of chapters of that book. It was just as far fetched as the Bible itself. I was hoping to find some real logic there that could be applied to the Bible. I was dissappointed.
Since we're trading book suggestions, I suggest you read "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold", or "Why People Believe Weird Things".
You fail to realize that we have already been down the Christian path. Like SolarFlare said, it wasn't until we actually read the Bible that we realized Christianity was complete bunk. Personally, I see Christianity as a complete and utter insult to whatever higher power that may exist. I'd rather let that higher power define itself than just choose early man's definition.
"If there were no higher power, then why would we have any concept of good and bad?"
Erase man from the face of this planet and you will also erase this concept. As long as man exists, you can't have good without evil. Survival of the fittest requires what you consider "evil". So in other words, without "evil", we wouldn't be here.
"...like money and sex, they are where evil springs from."
You've got to be kidding. Basic Christian belief: Procreation is EVIL!! Like I said, it's a necessary evil, get over it.
Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.
"And why would there be a million stories around the world in African tribes and other places that Christians aren't about a god who comes down to earth in human form and dies for his people?"
I explain how this is inevitable through the passing of genes and memes in this thread: Dead Link
Just take a look, it won't hurt you.
(also, please delete some of your double posts above)
[This message has been edited by Stasis (edited 23 September 2000).]
 
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Oh, and Fratraver, you said your Minister used to tell you, "Even the Devil can use the Bible to justify his own means."
That's right, that's why you need not believe in anything other than yourself, your conscience is all you need.
Warn your Minister of this: "It is of course always best to be led by god, and have him personally whisper into your ear. Only, when it is the devil talking he will tell you he is god, for the devil is a crafty liar. So you never know who is talking to you." - German-born Theologian Franz Bibfeldt
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In religion we believe only what we do not understand, except in the instance of an intelligible doctrine that contradicts an incomprehensible one. In that case we believe the former as part of the latter.
Like all religions, the Holy Religion of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both Logic and Faith. We have Faith that She is Pink; and we Logically know that She is Invisible, because we can't see Her.
A theologian is like a blind man in a dark room searching for a black cat which isn't there - and finding it!
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
 
Neurons were created by "man"- it is just a word to describe an abstract, as is every word in all of our languages. Man did not create anything... we interpret everything (or try to). In every century a new "scientific theory" , which is not REALITY but mans creation, has been replaced by a new one. A Neuron could be god, but we choose to name it a neuron.. The point being, we will never cease to exist, but rather go back to our natural state- which is going back to our source... everything that is us... god...we are all one, believe it.
E
 
Someone emailed me this, hope you all get a kick out of it...
For those of you not following the controversial Dr. Laura Schlessinger:

She is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Paramount Television Group is currently producing a "Dr. Laura" television show. She is a convert, a self-proclaimed expert on Judaism, and has made some statements that have caused the Canadian anti-hate laws to censure her.

The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, Which was posted on the Internet.... ENJOY.

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I Have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge With as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you,however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates
a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours.

They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is,how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.

Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like We do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14).

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident You can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Michael D. Lore
Shellist, Lore & Lazarz, P.C.
 
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OK,...I could go on and on all night, but I've noticed from a lot of posts that a lot of reference from the bible comes from the OLD TESTAMENT---like the shellfish eating---Don't you see that's why it's called the OLD---BEFORE JESUS---think of it like this (IF U WANT) Ok we all know the part about ADAM and EVE and CREATION depicted from the bible, well before ADAm and EVE Satan was already thrown out of heaven. He wanted to be like the most high (GOD) 1/3 of the angels fell with him and God basicaly said ok, then RULE the EARTH, but not my kingdom. So of course Satan has dominion over the earth and heavens but not the third heaven! Where God's throne is!

Solarflare6:

You are referring to Rev. from the bible, or the book of what is yet to come. Yes there are wars, Satan and his followers, the same 1/3 of the angels that fell with him are constantly trying to get into heaven to rule, it's just like the wars we have here...one land is forever always trying to conquer another! HEAVEN and EARTH will be no more, but if you read carefully there will be God's new kingdom---the NEW Jerusalem, where he will reign forever of course after Satan is cast into the lake of fire! Just as a king has loyal subjects and that king needs to BE SURE of his people's LOYALTY, so does the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS---thats why we have a choice---we prove our loyalty to God that we will not let the problems of this world overcome us to deny him! GOD and his children will fight ARMAGEDDON--his children will be in the spirit---YES there WILL BE THE GREATEST WAR YET TO COME! He knows that we live with constant oppression---we are always being attacked in the spirit---but we don't realize that we are fighting principalities of the air---in the spirit, but with the Holy Spirit we can overcome---God knows we are not perfect---that's why he died for our sins--you see when Satan (the serpent) tricked Eve to eat the fruit, he thought he won, but no God is far greater and by far more patient than you might think---(this is almost like a game of chess) when Satan made his move, God can never go back on his word--so he had to think of the ULTIMATE SACRIFICE TO SAVE HIS PEOPLE---which brings us back to the OLD TESTAMENT--there were many sacrifices---WELL God had to play the rules of the OT--he sacrificed himself IN THE FLESH ON EARTH! Then again Satan thought HE WON---HE WAS THINKING--OH YES< GOODY GOODY, GOD IS DEAD, HAHAHAAA---I WON,...BUT WAIT----from among the shadows of his darkened pitt(HELL) there came a light so bright and HE DID FEAR AND HE KNELT AS GOD TOOK THE KEYS OF HELL FROM HIM, thereby releasing all of his loyal people who had died to be brought up into heaven---During the time of the Old testament everyone went down in the pitt---but GOD made his move and in a way said CHECK MATE to Satan!

I guess in a way that this might be a little too deep for some people to fully comprehend, but it used to be the same for me, it even says in the bible that the wise men of the world will not be able to understand GOD'S WORD--the holy spirit helps me to unlock the mystery hidden within the parables of the bible! I've also noticed that the one's trying to share what happiness they have gained from GOD (if u will) are always saying that they do not mean to impose on any one's belief--they are not judging you, trying to change you or getting hostile with those who do not believe, but the one's who are (in my opinion) in DENIAL--are IGNORRANTLY attacking them back ---ATTACKING they're beliefs---HELLO that is NOT RESPECT---It OBVIOUSLY SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, HMMMM?

IT doesn't matter who replies back to this with SPITE, it doesn't SURPRISE ME ONE BIT, I FULLY EXPECT IT! BUT you need to get over your high selves, actually TRY to flex your spiritual MUSCLES and stop following others in the WORLD just because it's safe and easy--it is way harder to be persecuted and mocked for one's belief and stay true to one's self then it is to conform to the world, there are just way to many followers that are afraid of being the target of someone else's spite, so they cower and and allow others to lead them on a leash, just because they want to fit in!

There is ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING ANYONE CAN SAY TO MAKE ME BELIEVE ANY DIFFERENT, I HAVE MY OWN EXPERIENCE TO GO BY AND I WILL NOT CONFORM TO OTHERS, I WILL BE DIFFERENT AND I WILL DIE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE IN!!! I KNOW THAT I AM A SINNER AND NO BETTER BUT I HAVE SALVATION! GET OVER YOUR ARROGANT PRIDE AND REALIZE THAT MAN DID NOT CREATE MAN, AND WE DID NOT SPONTANEOUSLY CREATE FROM ABSOLUTLEY NO WHERE. If man were that intelligent to do this, then why can't we rule in PEACE?

SKYE*
 
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Oh and STASIS--IF YOU ACTUALLY TRY (COME ON IT'S NOT THAT HARD) TO FLEX SOME SPIRITUALITY MUSCLES you would KNOW that YES you can tell the difference between GOD and SATAN talking to you, since YOU TALK FROM THE MIND and NOT THE SPIRIT it SHOWS YOU WOULD NOT KNOW SATAN IF HE WAS STARING IN YOUR FACE (MAYBE HE IS)---SATAN ATTACKS THE FLESH---LET ME R-E-P-E-A-T that one more time---SATAN ATTACKS THE FLESH---THE MIND. GOD SOFTLY WHISERS TO YOUR SOUL--he has a direct line to your HEART if you only allow him--(LET HIM IN) REMEMBER IN GENESIS--HE BREATHED LIFE INTO ADAM? HE GAVE US A SPIRIT! IN HIS OWN IMAGE THAT IS!!! See that wasn't so hard to understand now was it?
SO YES YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE!
BUT I GUESS THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN THOUGH DID IT! WELL YOU SEEM TO HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS,
THAT'S ANOTHER THING---YOU ALL DO NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE BUT YOU SURE AS HECK CAN FIND LITTLE VERSES IN THE BIBLE TO SUPPORT YOUR REASONING and usually the verses you refer to are really short--( IT ACTUALLY LOKS LIKE YOU SCAN THROUGH THE PAGES JUST TO FIND SOME LITTLE SENTENCE THAT CAN AID YOU, BUT I'VE NOTICED IT'S JUST THAT A SMALL VERSE, YOU DON'T CROSS REFERENCE OR ADD THE REST OF WHAT THAT VERSE REFERS TO!)----IF YOU THINK THE BIBLE IS A BUNCH OF CRAP THEN DON'T USE IT AT ALL FOR YOUR OPPOSING VIEWS!
EITHER BELIEVE OR DON'T BUT DON'T MANIPULATE THE BIBLE TO GAIN AN ADVANTAGE FOR YOURSELVES and THEN CALL THE BIBLE A BUNCH OF GARBAGE! SOUNDS LIKE HYPOCRISY TO ME!
SKYE*
 
HAHAHA!!! That's all u got? WOW! Let's be a little more attentive TO our CAPS!
Oh, I'm truly SORRY if my CAPS offend you! I IMPLORE YOU TO FORGIVE ME OF MY OFFENSES, OH, what shall I DO? I CAN'T SEEM TO HELP MYSELF! MY CAPS WILL TRULY BE THE END OF MY EXISISTENCE! THERE I GO AGAIN WITH THE CAPS! DAMN, I have to say you got me--you WON!!!
SKYE*
CAPS CAPS CAPS CAPS CAPS CAPS CAPS CAPS
 
Hey, I'm not trying to mock you! Sorry if (SERIOUSLY) I came off a bit SARCASTIC!
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU!
SKYE*
The Caps are a bit excessive though, huh?
 
Stasis, I don't think you need to continue attacking the people on this board. As I said before it's very immature and also not the intellectual way to go about things.
 
Attacking? Can you point out where I was attacking?
It must be all part of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy!! LOL
This thread has been going on for a long while now. You chose to inject some of your own personal mysticism as truth... don't blame me for your dislike of what is being said here. You have every right to ignore it.
Did you even have the courtesy to read the REST of the thread? Did you read ANY of 2sense's posts?
If you're not going to offer up any intelligent rebuttals to what has been said, no need to post!
I'm not the one who felt the need to SHOUT.
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"Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, "yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down. down.
Amen!" If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it."
-Dan Barker
 
Ok, so the "old" testament can be ignored? Cool. Thats half of that silly book, now we need to work on the other half.
"they are not judging you, trying to change you or getting hostile with those who do not believe"
If you actually believe that, there is no point in even trying to debate you... you are beyond delusional
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Guys, seriously, there is a much less heated discussion about this topic currently going on here: Dead Link
 
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