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A safe and simple way to use noids

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FrogWarrior

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EDIT: Turns out it depends on which noid ones using, and it seems to be necessary to dissolve in a co-solvent first. The best solvent appears to be IPA, ethanol and acetone due to their low toxicity, low BP and the fact that they actually dissolve the material. May be necessary to heat to about 40C first.

The dissolved noid can be mixed with pure propylene glycol, at first it looks like a suspension is forming, but it eventually forms a uniform mixture. From there, one can evaporate the IPA before adding to cartridge, or just add it to the cartridge(s) and give it a day or so before use (to let soak into the foam and to let some of the IPA evaporate).
 
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Yeah its a bastard to dissolve lipophilic compounds in polar solvents and I think in this case, I'm thinking theres a tight limit to how concentrated one can it without adding an additional less polar solvent (problem there would be finding a non toxic one). Ideally you'd want it a bit more concentrated. I don't think shaking and sitting for days at warm temperature would even do it. Its not necessary for it to be dissolved to vaporise it (your average noid has a BP of around 300C which is similar to nicotine) since the heat will well and vapourise it, the main issue is its a lot harder to disperse it the the cartridge if its not in solution, also emulsions are more viscious so it'd be harder to get it into the cartridge. A mixture with small, finely dispersed particles should would fine. Alternatively one could heat the propylene glycol to about 100C, then dissolve as nuch as possible so you get a supersaturated solution. Ethanol and IPA are relatively polar solvents but often they dissolve things you'd least expect them to so thats another idea.

Vegetable glycerin might work better, Anyone know of any "relateively" volatile/, non viscious and non toxic oils? Something like olive oil would be way too viscous, and it won't evaporate, over time it'll become oxidised to nasty crap (if you don't know already, look up toxic lipid oxidation products, thats one pretty good reason never to use deep fat friers). Another idea is to dissolve the noids in acetone, pull the absorbant paper out of the cartridge, soak it in the acetone, let it dry, then roll it up and put it back in the cartridge. BTW I'm talking about the cheap ones with the disposable e-cigarettes. They're not really disposable though, to refill them all you have to do is pop off the white ring, and pour the nicotine/PG solution around the edges to let it soak into the paper, and letting it sit overnight. Pouring it down the tube causes it to leak out the bottom but tipping the cartridge on its side will sort that out, and that makes it easier to distribute the liquid.

EDIT: Another food grade solvent is DMSO, but it'd probably make the solution even more polaar. Theories just theory though. In practice (in chemistry), things don't always work the way you'd expect. Might turn out that ethanol, IPA or DMSO (or any other food grade solvents) but dissolve it fine.Afterall ethanols used in cannabis oil extractionss. Maybe a few drops of food grade limonene or an essential oil might up the solubility significantly. As an added bonus, one could add various flavors that way. I'd go for peppermint oil. Maybe a bit of clove oil too, which has an insanely high concentration of antioxidants. I had a dream about that once though, and neither peppermint, lavender or frankincense oil dissolve these compounds at all, they form a cloudy suspension. My intuition tells me ethanol will do the trick. Some people add a bit of ethanol to their e-cig liquid to add a bit of extra throat burn to it.
 
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I did a quick test of this with some hash yesterday, I really like it, tastes like nibbling on raw hash :)

Propylene glycol should be less polar than glycerol because it's got one less alcohol group, so I'd use that. Limonene's the first thing I thought of that could be a good co-solvent, but now I'm not so sure - it's probably not very soluble in propylene glycol either so it could hurt solubility more than help. Plus I've no idea about the safety.

You don't want to inhale DMSO mist, a drop of the stuff on your skin even and you can taste it for hours... I'd just try something like 10% ethanol or IPA in propylene glycol if you need more solubility.

The problem with having undissolved bits is e-cigs work by wicking the liquid onto the heating element, any solids will be wasted and eventually probably clog the wick.
 
Shit I thought I wrote another reply yesterday, musta got deleted. Was it actual solid hash or hash oil? How well did it dissolve in the propylene glycol? Thanks for informing me about how e-cigs work, I never got around to learning that. In this case, if its anything like thin layer chromatography then it should still work since the solvent should still carry small insoluble particles. Small is the keyword there though, small enough that they just make the solution cloudy, as opposed to big chunks floating around in the solvent. This works for TLC at least, I don't know if it would apply to this wicking phenomenon.

Yeah you're right about glycerol being more polar than PG. In case you don't already know though, its not the number of hydroxy groups that determines the polarity, but rather how they're distributed around the molecule. For example, dichloromethane is pretty non polar and chloroform is more polar because it has an extra chlorine atom. One might assume carbon tetrachloride would be even more polar since it has 4 chlorine atoms, but its actually way less polar than chloroform and DCM. Its all about dipole moments. CCl4 has its Cl atoms evenly distributed around the molecule so the change in electron densities cancel each other out. The reason water is so polar is because the molecule is bent so the O atom sticks out along the y axis creating a dipole. If water was linear, it'd be non polar like CO2. Sorry for the brain dump if you already knew that (which Im guessing you did since you know your shit), I just like explaining shit like this.

Yeah you're right about DMSO, intentionally inhaling that would be insane. God knows what it'd do to the lungs. Yeah, a bit of ethanol is probably the way to go. Only problem is its relatively low boiling point. Its only around 80C so it'd evaporate much faster than PG or glycerol which boil at around 300C. You'd need a non polar with a similar boiling point. First thing that comes to mind are fatty acids. Palmitic acid boils at around 350C. Its probably viscous as hell though, and I don't know if its even miscible with ethylene glycol. Unsaturated fatty acids are generally less viscous. Oleic acid boils at around 360C but according to the wiki page, one of its uses is inducing lung damage in animals, so fuck that, back to the drawing board lol.

Ethanols or IPA are definitely worth a try. The low boiling point might not even be an issue at all.
 
Yeah I just broke up a little chunk (0.2g maybe) and tried to dissolve it in some e-liquid (~45% PG, 45% VG, 9% water apparently). Hardly dissolved at all so I scooped out the hash bits, dissolved them in a couple of mL IPA and poured it back into the e-liquid. Then boiled it till it didn't smell of IPA any more and tried, not very successfully, to squeeze it through a bit of cotton into the cartridge.

If I'd had more time I'd have extracted it with some naphtha and filtered that, evap, thin it out a bit with IPA and dissolved in neat PG.

You're probably right about the particles actually, I guess the wicks are fairly loose and porous since the liquid's pretty thick. I knew about the polarity, it gets a bit complicated to imagine how that might all play out with glycerol and PG though! How do you know PG is less polar?

Hehe, yeah it's hard to think of much that meets those requirements! I think alcohol will work fine, it probably won't need much and I don't think the boiling point difference will matter.
 
I'd love to hear updates or "best practices" on this. I currently use a meth pipe. It works just fine, but I don't like the idea of carrying it or someone seeing it and getting the wrong idea. Ecig seems perfect. I've never used one and am a bit concerned about laying out cash and finding out it's hard to fill, doesn't vape right for our purposes, etc. Any suggestions for equipment or concentration? I have pg and JWH, but haven't tried mixing them.
 
The noids vape, thats for certain. Sounds like skillet has the right idea with the IPA. If one were to make it sufficiently concentrated, then very small amounts would be needed so any toxicity caused by IPA or ethanol in the lungs would be negligible so boiling off the IPA shouldn't even be necessary. If alcohols work, then they're pretty ideal since they're relatively polar too, so theres much less chance of things crashing out of solution when the two solvents are mixed. To be on the safe side though, its best to mix the solvents slowly while stirring, and warm both solvents slightly first. But if one wants to boil off the solvent like skillet mentioned, then acetone might work better. Less reactive than IPA, boils at 60C and easily dissolves noids.

The cheap, rechargeable e-cigs here cost around $20 and come with 2 cartridges. The cartridges can be refilled but its handy to have a few of them to experiment with. They cost about $10 for a pack of 3 around here. Food grade propylene glycol is dirt cheap since such a small amount is needed. Food grade glycerol is also available but glycerol is too viscous, I wouldn't even consider it a liquid, its something in between solid and liquid. It wouldn't work for this ghetto cartridge refill method, unless theres a way to thin it out. PG works fine for this.

As for ideal concentrations, can't map that out until we know how to dissolve the stuff properly in PG. I think skillet nailed that one though. Next thing to determine is how well IPA dissolves synthetics.
 
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skillet said:
You're probably right about the particles actually, I guess the wicks are fairly loose and porous since the liquid's pretty thick. I knew about the polarity, it gets a bit complicated to imagine how that might all play out with glycerol and PG though! How do you know PG is less polar?

Hehe, yeah it's hard to think of much that meets those requirements! I think alcohol will work fine, it probably won't need much and I don't think the boiling point difference will matter.
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I think I had it wrong about the particles, I was assuming that the insolubles mix with PG to form a suspension, but I later found out the particles eventually settle at the bottom so its not a suspension. I shoulda expected that, in my experience, if somethings completely insoluble in a solvent, it'll remain clumped together, whereas a more soluble material gets dispersed as fine particles. I can't remember the terminology for the different kinds of suspensions, the really fine ones are called colloids, but can't remember the names for the other ones like milk.

PG is an easy one to think about, just compare ethylene glycol to ethanol. One end of ethanol has that electron rich oxygen atom, while the other end of the molecule is relatively electron deficient so this creates a dipole along the x-axis. Ethylene glycol on the other hand:
200px-Ethylene_glycol.svg.png

doesn't have an electron deficient tail. Both ends are electron rich, so no dipole. Now take glycerol:
images

no dipole along the x-axis, but that additional OH group on the top of the molecule means theres a dipole along the y-axis. If glycerol had longer carbon chains, then it would be more flexible and could adopt a less polar conformation (staggered conformations aren't always the most stable), but it doesn't so that dipole along the y-axis is there for good. In chemistry theres rarely just one factor involved in a phenomenon, this is no different. From what I remember, ethylene glycol is actually more polar than ethanol. I don't know the reason, but its probably due to greater ability to form hydrogen bonds.

Sorry, I meant to use PG and n-propanol as an example, but the explanation applies equally. PG should be even better at forming hydrogen bonds because long chain length means greater flexibility.

So is the wick the word for that paper stuff inside the cartridge, or is it the tube down the center of it? I looked up e-cig wicks and I heard talk about making your own with silica. I'd be careful there, polars like methanol dissolve silica.
 
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I have no pure alcohols to experiment with, so I tried 40% vodka and it didn't work at all. So then I played around with other solvents, acetone and chloroform easily dissolve them. Chloroform seems to dissolve it quicker. I tried adding acetone to the propylene glycol containing the undissolved particles, at first it formed two layers like the two solvents were immiscible. Shaking it up mixed the layers together permanently. The acetone didn't dissolve the material at all, but it did change the liquid to a finer suspension. Chloroform is too hard to evaporate (80C) for these kinds of experiments, DCM would work better. Plus, any residual chloroform in there could cause big problems since heat converts it into phosgene gas.

I can't imagine IPA working better than acetone, so maybe the key is dissolving it in the non polar before adding it to the propylene glycol. A complication I should mention though, is I've been testing all this on PG that contains nicotine (20mg/mL). That probably doesn't help the solubility of other compounds. Also, who knows what kinda reactions could occur between nicotine and noids at high temps like 300C. Food grade PG is the way to go.
 
Yeah I think dissolving it in acetone first will work a lot better.

For tanks the wick usually looks like a little piece of string (I guess it's actually glass fiber) going into or through the atomizer. The 510, and maybe other carto-style atomizers, uses a V-shaped piece of metal mesh to do the same thing.
 
Alright, I figured it out. It depends entirely on the compound itself, I was looking at a weird one thats insoluble in just about everything. I tried a different noid and about 15mL of warm IPA easily dissolved 100mg of the substance. Tested out UR-144 and JWH-018 and they're both easy to dissolve too, cold acetone dissolves them no problem.
 
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Anyone else experimenting with this? Acetone, IPA and EtOH dissolve most noids, and it mixes in with PG easily. Doesn't take long for the solvent to evaporate especially acetone. How well do the noids get vaped is the next question. It works, that much is certain.
 
It works, have to be careful because it takes time for it to reach the wick, so make sure your not casually smoking the e-cig in a place that you wouldn't want to get high in. Acetone is probably the way to go because it evaporates much easier than IPA, but IPA would be less toxic. Ethanol would be the best, because you wouldn't need to remove it. Some people add ethanol to the e-liquids to add a bit of throat burn to it. The downside of all this is that if it catches on, it would give the tobacco companies a good rallying point to get e-cigs banned. They are a god send in my opinion, I never smoked and I hate the smell of it. I hope more people switch over to e-cigs but I think tobacco should always remain available.
 
Yes, I know this is an old thread, but it seemed more appropriate here than starting a new thread.

Has anyone been using synthetic noids in e-cigs for an extended time? Are you using the methods described here, or is something better? I'm specifically interested in JWH-018, but any experience you can share is of interest.

I'm confused about the idea of dissolving in acetone, mixing with PG and then allowing the acetone to evaporate. Once the acetone is gone, wouldn't the JWH precipitate back out in time? It would be ideal if I could make a large batch of solution, but I'm wondering if it's necessary to do small batches that would be consumed over a few days instead.

I get dizzy looking at all the ecig buying options out there. I'm not asking for a specific source (forum rules), but what type of ecig works best for this application, or does it much matter?
 
Can someone give me a hint? Is the answer to my question obvious, does nobody know, or does nobody care? I tried to USFSE without success.
 
IMHO: Use no noids. Noids are not save in my opinion. The can really fuck you up. Every had withdrawals? I know two ppl who must go to a psychiatry and many that suffer months after using it. Despite the cancer thing? Noids makes you freaking high, tolerance build up quickly. And after some weeks you smoked the whole bag. The bag that could least for years if you smoke it for the first time. Or are you trying to refine Cannabis?
 
LifeIsStrange said:
IMHO: Use no noids. Noids are not save in my opinion. The can really fuck you up. Every had withdrawals? I know two ppl who must go to a psychiatry and many that suffer months after using it. Despite the cancer thing? Noids makes you freaking high, tolerance build up quickly. And after some weeks you smoked the whole bag. The bag that could least for years if you smoke it for the first time. Or are you trying to refine Cannabis?
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I've used less than a gram over the last 5 years. While very effective, I dislike owning a meth pipe for it. Sure, I'd use it more if I had a more convenient and less sketchy way to use it, but I still wouldn't be using it daily. I'm over 40 years old and I've never suffered withdrawals from anything. So, back to my question... who knows about using JWH in an ecig, or why is this a bad or poorly placed question?
 
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