4-methyl-methcathione and 5HT2b agonism

[Available]

Hi there,

First of all, sorry if this has been posted elsewhere! I've done searches and tried to built up some info on 5HT2b agonism, but am sure you more chestry-aware people could help!

A friend offered me a "neo dove" and because i'm a bit of a girl when it comes to drugs, i turned them down, as i like to look after my body!

I did some research and found out they contain 4-methyl-methcathione/mephedrone, and apparently it's the addition of alkyl halide substitutions in the 4 category (referring to 4-methyl?) that make the otherwise non-5HT2b-agonistic methcathion into an agonist!

My understanding of 5HT2b agonists derives from the slimming drug fenfluramine, which spent 25 years on the market (73-98?) before being withdrawn due to links with heart valve problems (due to there being lots of 5HT2b receptors in the heart cells, and hence they divide rapidly when in contact with an agonist).

The stats i read on that were worrying. with about 25% of people on the drug for 3-12 months having heart problems! And this is what worries me about my friend taking "neo doves".

Is it dangerous for someone to take one or two of these every two weeks or maybe even each week?

After 3 months or so of taking one each week, could you be susceptible to similar heart damage of fenfluramine patients? Or is it the fact that they took this fenfluramine every day for months on end that caused the mutations, and hence recreational use, and recreational doses will have little effect on the heart valves. After all, isn't MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine) also posession a alkyl halide in the 4 position?

I read a couple of reports somewhere saying MDMA was similarly a 5HT2b agonist! Based around a study done on heart cells, which was monitored, and the results showed that it caused similar growth to those mixed with fenfluramine.

SO, MDMA hasn't caused much of a heart stir up, and it was introduced to the majority at the same time as fenfluramine (give or take a few years). Does this mean that it's only chronic usage that can result in heart valve conditions, and hence taking it once a fortnight won't have much of a long term problem?

ALSO, can this 4-Methyl-methcathione perhaps have a greater affinity to the 5HT2b receptors than Fenfluramine, and MDMA, making it very hard to judge how dangerous it is?

And finally, is the damage caused relative more-so to :

-Taking a high dose (10 capsules a night, if thats possible?) yet only doing them once every 2 months

OR

-Taking 1-2 capsules every 1-2 weeks

Sorry for a strange and possibly repetative question! But this has just caught my interest, as i want to try one, but am not sure of the dangers for both me, and my much more reckless friend, who has never had a second thought about what they consume >.<

Thanks!

 

[egor]

I am trying to find the same info and the search is pretty fruitless. Its just too new of a chemical to have had any real clinical studies done on it. Maybe in a year or 2...

 

[Available]

mmm! annoying, isn't it.

Can we not draw conclusions from similar chemicals, with the same alkyl halide composition (isn't that what's suspected of causing the agonism?)

Or does it not work that way.

It's very annoying to have such little information! I feel like were i to try it i'd be a lab rat!!

 

[Ham-milton]

There's no alkylhalide on 4-m-MCAT. An alkylhalide group is something like a fluoromethyl or other halo-alkyl combo (ie: any halogen + methyl, ethyl, butyl, etc).

But still, I wouldn't worry too much of 5HT2b agonism with this one. Even if it is a 5HT2b agonist, it's likely that it isn't potent, and even if it is, as long as it's not used frequently you'll be fine.

 

[Available]

There's no alkylhalide on 4-m-MCAT. An alkylhalide group is something like a fluoromethyl or other halo-alkyl combo (ie: any halogen + methyl, ethyl, butyl, etc).

But still, I wouldn't worry too much of 5HT2b agonism with this one. Even if it is a 5HT2b agonist, it's likely that it isn't potent, and even if it is, as long as it's not used frequently you'll be fine.

mmm, i remember something called Fluro.... being in the SC's and ND's but not the spirits (which are pure 4MMcat)

Thanks for clearing up what an alkylhalide group is though!

But there are still many people saying that 2-Methylamino-1-p-tolylpropan-1-one/Mephedron/4-methyl-methcathione (all the same thing, and also ingredients in the neo range according to tests) are very likely to be 5HT2b agonists!

Is the thing said about MDMA being a 5ht2b agonist as well true and proven? Do many is this community accept that it is also a 5HT2b agonist? And hence that through irregular use, perhaps weekly in moderate doses they will not cause severe heart problems (or any heart problems!) as that has been my main concern.

I guess there would be other dangers involved with this stuff, or is 4-MMCAT relatively stable and un-harming stuff, hence merely looked down on in this forum due to its short -lived effects, expensiveness and moreishnes!? Some threads i read seemed to tell people to stay well away from it, and if they had to, only consume a small amount (which did set me off worrying!). I'm pretty sure it was in a thread about 2-Methylamino-1-p-tolylpropan-1-one but it might have been a chemical that looked similar (i'm not familiar with all these names!)

It's so hard to really find out about this stuff

Thanks for your input and help!

 

[Ham-milton]

Yeah, MDMA is a 5HT2b agonist on par with Fenfluramine. Scary stuff, huh. So is MDA.

I still don't think that 4mmcat will be though. I don't know of any beta-ketone that is. Or am I simply unimformed?

 

[Available]

ooh! Wow! I thought it could be more speculative government propaganda that MDMA and MDA were agonists!!

That's put my mind at ease! Fenfluramine must've caused the problems it did due to its continual and prolonged use!

In the 80/90s people were taking pure MDMA every week weren't they (?), and i haven't heard of many heart problems for MDMA users later down the line!

Are Beta Ketones pretty much analogues of other drugs (in this case methcathione)

I'm amazed at how much you all know about these chemicals! I find it fascinating, but sadly was never a good chemistry student, so doubt i'd be able to get fully to grasp with all of the things you talk about here! Impressive stuff thought!

 

[Ham-milton]

Methcathinone is a beta-ketone. all cathinones and priopions are.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Are Beta Ketones pretty much analogues of other drugs (in this case methcathione)

A beta-ketone is basically a functional group in chemistry, a functional group being a part of a chemical that gives it certain characteristics in chemical reactions.

A ketone group means that there is an oxygen (O) double bonded to a carbon (C) and that carbon is then bonded to either two other carbons or the rest of the compound.

Beta means that the ketone is attached to the secondary carbon, as opposed to the primary carbon (look it up on wikipedia).

Look up acetone on wikipedia and you'll see it. Hell, just look up ketone and you'll see what I mean.

It doesn't imply an analogue, it just describes the placement of the ketone on the molecule.

 

[Ham-milton]

generally though, when you see something referred to as a beta-ketone, they're referring to a ketone on the beta carbon of a PEA. bk-MBDB, bk-MDMA, etc. The bk-variants of stimulants are known as cathinones or propions, depending on how much they're used in medicine.

That seems to be the only deciding factor.

 

[Available]

aaah! ok then.

Most of that is similarly lost on me, who's chemically challenged brain finds mole calculations to be over their head! Couldn't even manage them back in school!

So, unless anyone has any other input, could i be accurate in saying this (?) :

4-methyl-methcathion has little/not very potent, to none 5HT2b agonising properties. And even were it to be a fair agonist, take a relatively low dose once every week would not pose a direct threat to to the heart valves.

4-Fluoromethamphetamine however, due to it posessing the "4-fluro" group (an alkyl halide?) could pose agonistic properties (but not for sure). This chemical was also found in SOME neos upon analysis.

The original statement saying that Mephedrone/4-methyl-methcathione was more of a suspiscion that was echoed throughout a few forums, yet never founded on much, to any fact

(please not for anyone skim-reading, the above italics are NOT fact, but my perceptions, and i am asking the more knowledgable people here whether what's written in italics could be true!)

 

[stirfry]

both MDMA and LSD have been proven to be 5-HT2B agonists, and i would guess that all serotongenic stimulants and hallucinogens are to some degree. i think heart valve problems arise when the drug is taken everyday for extended periods of time, as in the case of fenfluramine (which i would guess would make a decent empathogenic stimulant in high enough doses).

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1571597 has a little info about hallucinogenic drugs and their relative affinities at different serotonin receptors.

 

[stirfry]

P.S. i'm not trying top imply that 4-methyl-methcathinone is safe, because nobody knows. i don't think i would bother trying it.

 

[Available]

P.S. i'm not trying top imply that 4-methyl-methcathinone is safe, because nobody knows. i don't think i would bother trying it.

Hmmm, ok. It's just attracted me being one of the legal things out there, plus my friends have told me it's very good and great euphoria/talkativeness!!

Are there any other probable/suspect problems to health that could arise through this (i know nobody knows, but i mean by taking guesses, by its chemical structure, and past beta ketones of cathione !?)

Sorry to seem like such a fool!

 

[stirfry]

its very unscientific, but i would be more worried about body temperature fluctuations than 5-HT2B agonism. compare the structure of mephedrone (4-methyl-methacathinone) to the known deadly PMA (4-methoxy-amphetamine). its a bit of a stretch though. i still think this chem is probably safer than PMA though, as the experience reports mention high doses with boosters, so its not as immediately deadly.

just remember if you do try it, to work up slowly and try not to redose too much. this isn't MDMA with a 20+ year history of a drug of abuse, you don't want to be the one to figure out what a toxic dose of the stuff is.

 

[Available]

mmm, yes! I know people who've taken 20 in a night, and 36 in 5 days, etc. on these forums, yet i'm naturally not one to give into moreishness, etc. so would easily plod along with 1-2 a night and do it once every 2 weeks! I have very strong willpower!

So, the lethal dose isn't what worries me! But i'll bear that in mind and of course will not be complacent!

My main concerns lay with the long-term affects, as finding out 5 years down the line that i'll need a pace-maker or something due to holes in the heart or something strange like that caused by the use of mephedrone would just really be a kick in the ass!!

But still, thanks for informing me and helping me reach a more definate conclusion! You lot have been a great help

 

[Ham-milton]

its very unscientific, but i would be more worried about body temperature fluctuations than 5-HT2B agonism. compare the structure of mephedrone (4-methyl-methacathinone) to the known deadly PMA (4-methoxy-amphetamine). its a bit of a stretch though. i still think this chem is probably safer than PMA though, as the experience reports mention high doses with boosters, so its not as immediately deadly.

just remember if you do try it, to work up slowly and try not to redose too much. this isn't MDMA with a 20+ year history of a drug of abuse, you don't want to be the one to figure out what a toxic dose of the stuff is.

There should be absolutely no risk of serotonin syndrome from 4MMCAT. The reason Para-Methoxy-Amp is so dangerous is because it causes the release of serotonin fairly potently, while at the same time exerting a potent MAOI effect. This makes it serotonin syndrome in one drug.

There are lots of PEAs with methyls and methoxy's para to the amine (ie: Mescaline, TMA-1,2,3,6, Symbescaline, MME, 2,4-DMA, etc). AFAIK, only the mono methoxy located para to the amphetamine is dangerous. Even PMMAs dangers are greatly reduced.

Being that this is a secondary amine (like methamphetamine) and has that beta-ketone, I don't think there's any reason to begin to suspect that it's dangerous.

At least for occasional use. Don't use anything like this often.

LSD is actually a more potent 5HT2b agonist than it is a 5HT2a agonist (partial, however it may be).

 

[Mona Lisa]

Logic would suggest that if an 5HT2b agonist causes extra cell division in the heart valves, that it would be more of a risk to take it longterm even in smallish doses (as with fenflurmine) than to take it just occassionally, as with most MDMA users who if sensible would only take about once a month. This might explain why there hasn't been a significant risk for MDMA users. But of course, these same people could develop heart trouble as they age, while not being noticeable yet (since most users, even those who started in the 80s, are still under 65). There might a higher percentage of this group suffering heart trouble in their 70s/80s, etc.