Tryptamines 4-AcO vs 4-HO Compound Effect Differences v. Settling the Eternal 4-sub Tryptamine Debate

[Didgital]

Thanks for the mini report! Gives me a bit of a judge to try some of the psilocin I squirreled away almost a decade ago. Never got around to it somehow.

Def check it out, hope you've been storing it well!!! Away from light, and not in solution I hope. It's very unstable in etoh or h2o

 

[Xorkoth]

So... I recently got to try true synthetic 4-HO-DMT fumarate (Psilocin) and I've had some experience with 4-ACO-DMT fumarate (acetylpsilocin).

I found them different from eachother and psilocybe mushrooms.

The psilocin I could feel in 15-20 min and at about 40 min mark it was like getting hit by a truck. It was extremely visual at even 15mg but more like a less hectic ayahuasca trip. It was kind of like a rocketship up and a rocketship down. Main effects were dimishing by hour 3.

The acetylpsilocin was more reminiscent of mushrooms, hitting a little bit slower and in waves. I'm probably an outlier here but 4 aco is more likely to cause GI distress for me than either mushrooms or the 4-HO. 4-HO was extremely smooth on my body though I did actually puke, it was more of a spiritual purge. There was no nausea whatsoever.

I had the same experience. Pure 4-HO-DMT was different from mushrooms, though it was far more like mushrooms than 4-AcO-DDMT and I am not confident that I would be able to reliably tell it apart from mushrooms in a blind test. However I am very confident I could easily tell 4-AcO-DMT and 4-HO-DMT or mushrooms apart in a blind test.

 

[Didgital]

I had the same experience. Pure 4-HO-DMT was different from mushrooms, though it was far more like mushrooms than 4-AcO-DDMT and I am not confident that I would be able to reliably tell it apart from mushrooms in a blind test. However I am very confident I could easily tell 4-AcO-DMT and 4-HO-DMT or mushrooms apart in a blind test.

I'm confident that I could but mainly due to duration and waviness. I suppose in the single but monumental trial with the 4-ho-DMT, I was especially careful of diet and other substances, however as I stated it was rocket up rocket down, very parabolic. I personally find 4 aco and mushrooms to have a more jagged but linear come up and come down.

"wow I am rocked"
"I guess I'm not that rocked" only to say again "I'm rocked!" A bit later.

The 4 HO I never had that, I was rocked until I wasnt!

Both mushrooms and to a lesser extent 4 aco I get the waves. Mushrooms especially! I suspect it's a combination of diet, digestion/absorption, and metabolism. My highest dose mushroom trip (7g powdered swallowed all at once) lasted well over 12 hours and my peak didnt occur til about hour 8.

This has been a very interesting thread to read for me tho, tho I still dont find anything truly definitive here. Some folks find the acetoxy compounds smoother, some find the 4 ho's.

I dunno if its different materials or different physiology but its fascinating to me.

I guess I should try the 4 acos of MET MIPT and DIPT, I will likely have a better frame of reference. I've tried almost every n substitution, but only in the case of nn dimethyl have I tried both 4 ho and 4 aco

I absolutely love both 4 ho met and 4 ho mipt, but didnt really love 4 aco det or 4 ho dipt.... but that's for another discussion

 

[Didgital]

I am however very experienced with different double bond isomers of THCs and their acetylated counterparts, ime, the initial high of the acetoxy derivatives is quite a bit different, but ultimately the effects settle into their parent compound's effects.

Dont believe the hype when they say Thc-o-acetate is more potent than THC. Marketing gimmick 100%

 

[Xorkoth]

Agreed, I don't find it more potent, either, but I do like it quite a bit.

 

[Neuroborean]

Yea my only experience with tryptamine pro-drugs also is 4-AcO-DMT compared with a wide variety of psilocybin/psilocin mushrooms. They honestly feel like two different drugs to me.

4-AcO-DMT is much easier to handle overall, the visuals and thought process resembles DMT more so than mushrooms, the duration is often much shorter, and the depth not quite as rich n deep.

Mushrooms I need much more preparation, it takes my mind into places 4-AcO never has. Can be a little rough and frightening at times in comparison. Also the duration just keeps going and going, mushrooms don’t seem to like to let go of my brain.

Kinda sad I’m down to the last of my 4-AcO.. I regret giving it all away now Sometimes I give a little too much. I think I’d prefer it for some chill camping adventures over mushrooms.

-GC

Hi GC,
that was an interesting post...
I would like to know how do you compare AcO-DMT to DMT. Do you mean in oral ROA (pharmahuasca) or ayahuasca or you also compare it to vaped DMT?

I've had shrooms that made me feel I was going insane, it happened specially the first time, maybe because I was not used to the psychedelic experience yet, but I think there's some kind of alien-weirdness that comes with the shrooms themselves that are not present in 4-ho's, but well, I only tried the met and mipt versions and never tried AcO's...

 

[Neuroborean]

I have only tried 4 ho met and 4 aco met, the former once and the latter thrice. With so little experience it is hard to say, but I found 20mg of aco way more visual than 20mg of ho, both eyes closed and open. I also had lovely body shivers with the aco. The ho I found way less interesting, more shallow. But perhaps the ho, which was a pill pressed by a RC company, was just less accurately dosed, or had lost potency, compared to my aco which I bought as fumurate. In any case I will re up on 4 ho in fumurate form, and get back to you in a year or so… more research necessary!

I had 2 different trips with the ho-met, both at 20mg with those blue/grey pills that quite likely are the same you took.
My 2 different trips were very distant in time from each other. I noticed a very noticeable loss of power on the second trip and it was also very different, with no "nervous" reaction (hysterical laughter occurring on the first trip), nor euphoria of any kind.
The second trip was in fact quite bland and boring, synthetic feeling and very little organic (contrary to the first one).
Instead with an incredibly cheap 4-ho-mipt powder the trips have always been decent, fun and completely "predictable" in terms of potency with respect to the dose consumed, much better and richer, in my opinion.

 

[Smokeymcbongwater]

I noticed I get more effects from 4-ACO-DMT from injecting it in a vein or snorting is the second best way(horrible tasting and painful be warned). I also noticed 4-HO-MET felt very clean and I felt very happy. I think mushrooms are the most powerful psychedelic I have tried I smoked DMT that was homemade and I never got the NMT out so never really broke through but I ate Syrian rue seeds with mushrooms and broke through 5 grams with 3 tablespoons.

I remember more of the trip from mushrooms once I injected 25-30mg 4-ACO-DMT with 300mg harmala full spectrum HCL crystals eaten 20 minutes prior. I remember hitting the ground twitching uncontrollably within 90 seconds. I remember color however I might get some 4-ACO-MET I really enjoy 4-HO-MET I would like to know the difference.

 

[JackARoe]

I figured I'd throw my thought out on the effects of 4-ACO-DMT and mushrooms. I do think they are different. Mushrooms seem to last about 2 hours longer also. I think the 4-ACO-DMT trip is done at the 4-5 hour mark. I mean I may be bug eyed at that point but down from the trip after about 4 hours. I can get 6-7 hours out of mushrooms and it is not as rounded and smooth as 4-ACO-DMT. i also think it unfolds different. The first two hours are the main effects like DMT then it trails off quicker than mushrooms.

Of course it could be opinion and all in my head but I too think I can tell the difference between mushrooms and 4-ACO-DMT. Never had synthetic 4-HO-DMT although it is in the mushrooms. Also I have to keep in mind it has been about 7-8 years since I had mushrooms and a friend sent me some freshly dried Azurecens from Oregon the last time I had them. So 1/2 of a gram zooted me hard. And the Azurescens did seem different from Cubensis in some aspects, a little more colder like Salvia. I get the feeling Azurecens have to like you like Salvia for a good trip. (Bah! totally unscientific I know but none the less, a "Jackaroe" data point. lol)

At least with mushrooms we know they can have different levels of different alkaloids to cause a difference. But I also think that it is possible to discern the difference between mushrooms and 4-ACO-DMT. 4-ACO-DMT shorter for sure, at least for me. Also i t did not matter if it was 15 mgs or 25 mgs. 25mgs had me holding on watching the colorful DMT type patters but still ended after about 4 -5 hours.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Psilocybin was way different than 4-AcO-DMT for me, or any other 4-sub for that matter. The visual effects were unlike anything I've encountered since, almost like viewing the world through a distorted fish-eye lens. Completely devoid of color, everything took on shades of dark grey. It also felt much more insightful and more stripping of cultural associations. 4-AcO-DMT felt much dreamier and more like the other 4-subs I've tried.

I saw a study where psilocybin cannot be detected in the bloodstream when taken orally (first blood samples taken 15 minutes in), so I question how much of a pharmacological difference there is here. Definitely would help to better understand the activity of other alkaloids present as @arrall suggested.

From a REBUS perspective it makes sense that plant material vs. powder could lead to differently perceived experiences even if the active components are the same. Once you start relaxing a lot of other high-level beliefs, suddenly the distinction between a plant and powder gains influence and could more strongly impact how the experience is interpreted/constructed. Although for many people the distinction of plant vs. powder probably carries a large influence to begin with.


The sentiment I've encountered is that esterases are present in the bloodstream, and if their concentration and/or rate is high enough, you still wouldn't have a significant amount of the ester reaching the brain. Succinylcholine administered IV is 90-95% hydrolyzed before it reaches tissue, so the reaction can happen quickly, at least in some cases.

Interesting paper in 2020 on 4-sub SAR showed that 4-AcO-DPT and 4-AcO-MPT are more potent in mice than their hydroxy counterparts. To your point, this can't be explained if the ester was rapidly hydrolyzed, so at the very least there can be significant differences in AcO vs. HO brain uptake (caveat: species differences exist w.r.t esterase activity). They also showed the AcO esters of all major 4-subs have 5-HT2A Gq efficacy, although it was generally over an order of magnitude weaker than the corresponding hydroxy.

At least for the AcO's vs. HO's, this supports the notion that there is a distinction and that it might not just be kinetic either.

I know this is blasphemy to say for some, but ive done mushrooms many times and my experience is that the visuals can be quite different depending on what kind of mushrooms you eat.
I can pick liberty caps here and they are the best.
But ive also done various kinds of cubensis "strains" and idk.
They just feel alot different depending on what type.
B+ and Maztapec always gave me good dmtish visuals.
But ive had some cubensis that had way different types of visuals.
Could be anything really and placebo is always possible.
But i beleive nature is complicated and its not strange if a cubensis mushroom with mexican genetics will have a different effect then a cubensis from Asia etc.
We know different land races exist with cannabis.
So why wouldnt cubensis mushrooms be slightly different depending on climate, region etc?

 

[JackARoe]

I know this is blasphemy to say for some, but ive done mushrooms many times and my experience is that the visuals can be quite different depending on what kind of mushrooms you eat.

Totally agree. Dried Azurecens (fresh) were to me very different from dried Cubensis. I could probably tell them apart from taking a half gram of one or the other. But i also think I can tell the difference between 4-ACO-DMT and mushrooms.

I for sure think different rations of what is in the mushrooms can vary and effect the visuals. I think even different batches of the same strain are different. I have had Amazonian Cubensis (back in the 90's) that were very strong and did not resemble regular Cubensis. I am not sure that is just psilocybin and set and setting but actual difference between the ratio of the contents.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Totally agree. Dried Azurecens (fresh) were to me very different from dried Cubensis. I could probably tell them apart from taking a half gram of one or the other. But i also think I can tell the difference between 4-ACO-DMT and mushrooms.

I for sure think different rations of what is in the mushrooms can vary and effect the visuals. I think even different batches of the same strain are different. I have had Amazonian Cubensis (back in the 90's) that were very strong and did not resemble regular Cubensis. I am not sure that is just psilocybin and set and setting but actual difference between the ratio of the contents.

Good point about dried vs fresh also...
Ive had fresh cubensis a few times, and that was also a different experience then the exact same mushrooms when dried.

 

[Tranced]

4-aco-dmt is noticebly different to mushrooms at least. So friendly, introspective and dreamy.
4-ho-mipt is way more lucious than 4-aco-mipt

Not quite on the mark but MDMA converts to MDA and the latter is way more commective, psychecelic, hedonistic, introspective and life changing.

IMO, generally the idea they should be the same is flawed. Snorting a bit would prove that.

 

[arrall]

IMO, generally the idea they should be the same is flawed. Snorting a bit would prove that.

Shulgin seemed to be convinced that hydroxy, acetate, and phosphate esters of 4-sub-tryptamines were identical.
He said it a few times throughout the chemistry section of TiHKaL.
I have yet to compare then myself, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that a person could differentiate the three in a blind trial.

 

[Ismene2]

4-aco-dmt was a total winner for sure. It´s a pity that is not available ATM. The psychodelic chemist of the moment are getting lazy...

I haven tried the 4-x-met versions yet but seems promising

And whast the point on the fumaric salts? Are just less potent by weight but more stable, Isnt? So it can last years in a drawer without losing potency... isnt?

Any ideas why 4-aco is dying out in Europe? Looks more available in the USA.

 

[Freeotrope]

Any ideas why 4-aco is dying out in Europe? Looks more available in the USA.

I think that 4-aco-dmt production went way down when china banned it

 

[Ismene2]

I think that 4-aco-dmt production went way down when china banned it

Did they ever ban it? There was some rumour about 6 years ago that it was getting banned but there's still plenty of it in America.

 

[Ismene2]

Apparantly it was banned after 3 or 4 chinese chemists fell into the vat. Only one survived - pulled from the bubbling vat by the heel of his left brogue. Tragically every hair on his body had been removed - like some bizarre electrolysis accident. He recently found a girlfriend understanding enough to love him for himself and we all wish him well.

 

[Pfafffed]

I think it's interesting that several of us have found 4-AcO-MET to be much more visual than 4-HO-MET

 

[Ismene2]

I think it's interesting that several of us have found 4-AcO-MET to be much more visual than 4-HO-MET

I think 4-aco-dmt is a world unto itself. Not exactly like psilocin or DMT. The -aco does something to else to it.