RCs 3F-Phenmetrazine (3-FPM)

[crOOk]

SERT isn't a receptor, and cannot be inhibited indirectly...

You are of course right. It is a transporter protein which doesn't serve to cause serotonin mediated intracellular reactions.

However, please explain what you mean by "cannot be inhibited indirectly". Afaik there are various ways to reduce SERT activity:
-Orthosteric/competitive inhibition (SSRIs)
-Allosteric/non-competitive inhibition (SSRIs)
-Dopaminergic pathways (d1 as well as d2 antagonists, but also tyrosine hydroxylase inhibitors can attenuate meth induced reduction of sert activity)
-Hyperthermia seems to be another mechanism responsible for meth induced sert inhibition
-There seems to be at least one additional yet unknown DA and hyperthermia independent mechanism by which Methamphetamine administration inhibits SERT
-I suppose the countless ways to downregulate SERT by inhibiting its expression don't belong here

So what exactly do you mean by your statement? I want to understand!

And as far as recreational drug effects go, there is a huge, huge difference between something increasing the release/firing of 5-HT downstream because of its actions on DA/NE; and being a SERT inhibitor or releasing agent.

Absolutely.

IME there is nothing that stands out as serotonergic about the 3-FPM experience, although I agree it is less paranoia/anxiety inducing than many stims, I would attribute this more to its almost equal action at DA and NE as opposed to most stims having about double the EC50 for NE and also which areas of the brain is targets the most.

Agree to disagree? Keep in mind the responses to 3FPM vary wildly, both dose-dependent and between subjects.

 

[crOOk]

No, I'm way back up there with "more potent than cocaine" still. I thnk phenylmorpholines must have toxic effects on central cholinergic circuits. Maybe peripheral too, since it only takes a middle finger to scroll up the page and read. Definitely not a thread endorsing the stuff.

You still can not conclude that lower EC50 = higher potency. I will again reference DMT and S1r here. Well you can, but should keep in mind that there is an off chance your conclusion is wrong.

I will just ignore the insult if it was directed towards me since my brain is indeed broken beyond repair.

Immodium crackdown? Got a link? I've used it recreationally, even IV in PG solution. It elicits central effects, that's for damn sure. The histamine reaction is as brutal for me as it is with IV morphine, the gastrointestinal effects are not half as pronounced as they are when I take morphine though. It's a shitty opiate, but still more pleasurable than codeine to me. Neither is worth a 5min walk to the pharmacy.

 

[Scrofula]

C'mon, it's about the only thing that number tells you. Potency being obviously related to concentration.

 

[Coolwhip]

I think you are confusing SERT for 5-HT and its receptors, which is extra confusing because you keep saying inhibiting SERT in reference to increasing 5-HT activity(which is correct) but implies that you understand it is a transporter and not a receptor.

Regardless, none of the things you are talking about are going to have anywhere near enough effect to back up describing a drug as serotonergic, even if they applied to 3-FPM, which they don't. I'm not going to get into this with you, I honestly don't think you have half a clue what you are talking about and I don't care to try to change your mind(and I know the more someones tries the harder you will cling to your warped views). I just wanted to throw my weight against your argument for other readers who come across this thread.

 

[Scrofula]

I'll just assume you were talking to me there, coolwhip. The otherguy deleted one of his, which is what I was responding to.

It's true, I've maintained neither phenmetrazine, methamphetamine, or cathinones generally, are serotonergic. They do not appreciably increase the amount of 5-HT in synapses, unlike cocaine.

Now, here's the final word on this: don't bullshit me about inhibiting SERT, unless you start with pharma, and the broad class of drugs known as reuptake inhibitors. Seems they feel something is being inhibited. Perhaps a transporter, you think?

 

[Coolwhip]

My posts were directed at cr00k, when he says SERT I can't tell if he means the transporter, or 5-HT in general. I agree with everything you've said. The terms he is using seem to imply he is talking about the transporter, but then he is talking about downstream action on 5-HT(he says SERT but I don't think he actually means the transporter, despite saying precisely that) from DA/NE agonism which would be related to increased 5-HT release, not any effect on the transporter. Or perhaps he is conflating increasing 5-HT release through downstream mechanisms, and being a SRA by reversing the transporter. And while downstream effects such as those may be applicable when talking about the therapeutic effect of psychiatric drugs such as anti-depressants, they generally don't have much role in discerning recreational effects and definitely aren't considered when classifying one as serotonergic or not.

I mean I thought we could all agree that if a substance has no affinity for SERT, then it isn't inhibiting the transporter.

 

[Scrofula]

Yes we are (in agreement). Sorry if I've been a little rough lately, btw. Some minor stressors going on here and there, should be resolved soon.

 

[Ziiirp]

Wow, this is still so popular ? I must admit I miss it, too. But I could not handle it moderately. 0.5g - 1g a night sessions are not exactly sustainable.

Are there any reports of perceived heart problems, yet ? I always attribute cardiac issues to 3-F-substituted-substances abuse.

 

[gymstud]

I never has it feel bad on my heart only felt jittery next day

 

[Volsam]

I have numerous toxic side-effects from doses above 40mg of 3-FPM (orally), including chest tightness, seriously uncomfortable pain in balls, brain zapping, body aches. Lasting for another day or so.

IME, 3-FPM is best used in low doses (10-20mg) coupled with something else, I find a small addition of Hexen (10mg or so orally) or PPAP (about 40mg) and Phenibut makes it shine for me as a functional empathetic stim.

 

[gymstud]

I used to sniff more like 50mg repeatedly but I got through grams per week

It did make my dick tight

 

[gymstud]

The drip I loved but it was burning my nose to hell

 

[Volsam]

The drip I loved but it was burning my nose to hell

Man, I dont know how would you put up with grams per week up the nose!...
20mg nose bump would literally make me cry and it would be like someone just pulled on all my hairs inside the nose with a truck force or something and then pricked it with thousands needles... the only way to put 3-FPM up the nose is to really powder it small and make a solution with water but still!..

 

[sekio]

plug it yo

 

[Volsam]

plug it yo

For sure! Best route for most stims, totally agree. :D

 

[gymstud]

Man, I dont know how would you put up with grams per week up the nose!...
20mg nose bump would literally make me cry and it would be like someone just pulled on all my hairs inside the nose with a truck force or something and then pricked it with thousands needles... the only way to put 3-FPM up the nose is to really powder it small and make a solution with water but still!..

I must be masochistic

 

[gymstud]

Plus I associated the pain the pleasure that kicked in in seconds

 

[Ziiirp]

Ditto. It was part of the experience. If there is no hardcore sting (as long as it is not 2c-e-hardcorish) , something is missing. 8(

 

[gymstud]

I still can't smell properly and I've not had any since UK ban

 

[Ziiirp]

I can smell just fine. You should go to a plastic surgeon and upgrade to a proper snorter nose. I can donate some stem cells, if the price is right.

You should always put some nose balm on/in it after sessions.