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2g of MDMA = still dizzy 2.5 years on (brain damage?)

shugenja said:
Because a small (very small) percentage of people cannot withstand an emotional or HPA axis challenge. ANd it is extremely likely that a large percentage of LTC -- is in actuality an undisclosed or unknown pre-existing mood disorder.

Some people just cannot deal with the "my life is really crap" sledgehammer to the psyche that happens during the post-MDMA introspection. Instead of rising to the challenge and demanding change from themselves

they resign themselves to defeat.

Others don't seek treatment for the PTDS/HPA axis dysregulation (caused by the inability of their physiology to respond favorably to the catecholamine and other neurotransmitter flood) and the reinforcing nature of the fight-or-flight rresponse leads to a persistent hyper-adrenalized or persistent depressive state.

My words may be harsh -- but they are true.
Click to expand...

It's obvious from what you write here that you're not conversant with the entirety of the LTC condition. "resign themselves to defeat", what kind of symptoms would arise from this supposed lack of psychological resilience? Bruxism? HPPD? Chemical intolerance? Realize that depression and anxiety isn't even a symptom for many many sufferers of this condition. (For instance the OP of this very thread)

At some point this discussion ends up being about semantics it seems to me. Whether the word "damage" is applicable to solely cases of axonal loss/cell death (or what ever other definition) or not. When someone suffers for multiple years continually after MDMA use, with symptoms all consistent with serotonin dysfunction it's natural to consider using the word "damage".
 
Could someone please give me any indication of what's wrong with my eyes/brain.
My eyes are so sensitive to any kind of movement, when I say sensitive I mean ultra sensitive. When I walk I can see my surrounding Bob up and down with my head, along with this everytime I plant my foot on the ground, the vibration stems up my body and everything momentarily vibrates, this happens everything.
When I pan my head across from side to side, it is not smooth, everything sways then suddenly skips. Like my eyes can't process the image, so it skips. When I walk and keep my head down and look at the pavement, my eyes don't track it, it just keeps skipping, like seeing multiple photos back up against each other. These makes things impossible to do. I went to a DVD store, I couldn't properly look for any DVDs because my eyes just keep skipping. My brain is obviously trying to compensated for my eye movement which throws me off balance all the time.
Before anyone says anything
1. It was caused by MDMA. when i came down I immediately noticed it.
2. Before MDMA I was completely fine.
3. It's been almost 4 months with no change.
5. I can't live like this,
 
ScaredFirstTimer said:
At some point this discussion ends up being about semantics it seems to me. Whether the word "damage" is applicable to solely cases of axonal loss/cell death (or what ever other definition) or not. When someone suffers for multiple years continually after MDMA use, with symptoms all consistent with serotonin dysfunction it's natural to consider using the word "damage".
Click to expand...

These "symptoms all consistent with serotonin dysfunction" are evident in every non-MDMA user that is prescribed an

SSRI
SSNRI
SNDRA

for mood disorders.


Like I said -- it may have been triggered by the EXPERIENCE of MDMA -- but it isn't damage in any way.
 
@HPPDOFF, I would see an ophthalmologist and see if they can test the tracking of your eyes. Could be something to do with the muscles of the eye rather than neurological coordination, but an eye doc should be able to tell you more and do some testing. The visual system is pretty complex and I imagine it will just take some time as it did for me.

I used to have a lot of issues with fluid eye movement but I think it was more neurological/sleep deprivation-ish, I had a really hard time reading because my eyes didn't fluidly move across the words.. Its hard to explain but it was very hard to read for about a year. I would somewhat manually have to move my eyes from word to word. My issues with HPPD visuals got better around the same time my reading got better.

Alternatively it could be a really weird variant of acephalgic migraine.
 
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HPPDOFF said:
Could someone please give me any indication of what's wrong with my eyes/brain.
My eyes are so sensitive to any kind of movement, when I say sensitive I mean ultra sensitive. When I walk I can see my surrounding Bob up and down with my head, along with this everytime I plant my foot on the ground, the vibration stems up my body and everything momentarily vibrates, this happens everything.
When I pan my head across from side to side, it is not smooth, everything sways then suddenly skips. Like my eyes can't process the image, so it skips. When I walk and keep my head down and look at the pavement, my eyes don't track it, it just keeps skipping, like seeing multiple photos back up against each other. These makes things impossible to do. I went to a DVD store, I couldn't properly look for any DVDs because my eyes just keep skipping. My brain is obviously trying to compensated for my eye movement which throws me off balance all the time.
Before anyone says anything
1. It was caused by MDMA. when i came down I immediately noticed it.
2. Before MDMA I was completely fine.
3. It's been almost 4 months with no change.
5. I can't live like this,
Click to expand...


Your description makes one think of symptoms associated with multiple sclerosis.

Perhaps the substance you took (unless you had it tested in a lab using GCMS you can't be sure WHAT it was) caused a reaction where your body:

1. has started to attack the myelin sheath (like MS)
2. has developed optical neuritis
3. has developed lesions that affect the optic nerve

go see an opthalmologist

many people have found relief from HPPD by taking megadoses (8-12 grams) of ascorbate (buffered vitamin c poder) daily for a few to several weeks
 
shugenja said:
Your description makes one think of symptoms associated with multiple sclerosis.

Perhaps the substance you took (unless you had it tested in a lab using GCMS you can't be sure WHAT it was) caused a reaction where your body:

1. has started to attack the myelin sheath (like MS)
2. has developed optical neuritis
3. has developed lesions that affect the optic nerve

go see an opthalmologist

many people have found relief from HPPD by taking megadoses (8-12 grams) of ascorbate (buffered vitamin c poder) daily for a few to several weeks
Click to expand...
They're not reporting color loss et cetera though, I don't know if I would freak out someone by telling them they might have MS just because their eyes may not be tracking very well...
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
They're not reporting color loss et cetera though, I don't know if I would freak out someone by telling them they might have MS just because their eyes may not be tracking very well...
Click to expand...


Never said they has MS -- I said it is similar to MS related symptoms.

(FYI - uncontrolled/uncontrollable nystagmus is what is being described -- and that is a classic MS symptom)

Demyelination occurs for may reasons. In guillane barre syndrome, for instance, it can be a response to borrelia/ehrlichia (from a tick bite) -- as the body creates substances to attack the bacteria that attack the myelin.

It is not out of the ordinary that such a process is at work here.

If it was adulterated, there are many substances that can cause a marked oxidative response in the brain and CNS.
 
HPPDOFF said:
Could someone please give me any indication of what's wrong with my eyes/brain.
My eyes are so sensitive to any kind of movement, when I say sensitive I mean ultra sensitive. When I walk I can see my surrounding Bob up and down with my head, along with this everytime I plant my foot on the ground, the vibration stems up my body and everything momentarily vibrates, this happens everything.
When I pan my head across from side to side, it is not smooth, everything sways then suddenly skips. Like my eyes can't process the image, so it skips. When I walk and keep my head down and look at the pavement, my eyes don't track it, it just keeps skipping, like seeing multiple photos back up against each other. These makes things impossible to do. I went to a DVD store, I couldn't properly look for any DVDs because my eyes just keep skipping. My brain is obviously trying to compensated for my eye movement which throws me off balance all the time.
Before anyone says anything
1. It was caused by MDMA. when i came down I immediately noticed it.
2. Before MDMA I was completely fine.
3. It's been almost 4 months with no change.
5. I can't live like this,
Click to expand...


How old are you?

What is your biological gender?

I'm not saying you have MS -- I am saying the symptoms are a hallmark of MS.

MS can be triggered by many substances.

There is also a case in the literature of ACUTE demyelination in a person wityh amphetamine abuse

[h=2]Acute Demyelination in a Person with Amphetamine Abuse[/h]
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cripa/2011/514613/

There is also the possibility that the onset of MS or a demyelinating disease is simply coincidental in time with your MDMA/substance use.
 
shugenja said:
Never said they has MS -- I said it is similar to MS related symptoms.
(FYI - uncontrolled/uncontrollable nystagmus is what is being described -- and that is a classic MS symptom)
Demyelination occurs for may reasons. In guillane barre syndrome, for instance, it can be a response to borrelia/ehrlichia (from a tick bite) -- as the body creates substances to attack the bacteria that attack the myelin.
It is not out of the ordinary that such a process is at work here.
If it was adulterated, there are many substances that can cause a marked oxidative response in the brain and CNS.
Click to expand...
While I certainly agree that it requires investigation with an ophthalmologist, I don't agree with putting the thought of demyelination in somebody's mind, especially if they're also having HPPD while some MDMA users have abnormal activation of visual cortex.

There is a lot of talk about permanent damage etc and I just don't think that somebody fearing and catastrophizing over such things needs help jumping to the thought that its demyelination/optic neuritis (without an explicit report of vision loss) when others have had visual coordination issues coinciding with HPPD, but by all means it should be checked out
 
shugenja said:
How old are you?
What is your biological gender?
I'm not saying you have MS -- I am saying the symptoms are a hallmark of MS.
MS can be triggered by many substances.
There is also a case in the literature of ACUTE demyelination in a person wityh amphetamine abuse
Acute Demyelination in a Person with Amphetamine Abuse
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cripa/2011/514613/
There is also the possibility that the onset of MS or a demyelinating disease is simply coincidental in time with your MDMA/substance use.
Click to expand...

It sounds like they thought their patient was a chronic abuser. Anyways, demyelination occurring within a trip of using MDMA and (haven't heard this explicitly, but I'm making this assumption) not continuing to worsen is kind of a weird time frame for demyelination. I'm also under the impression that the notion is starting to shift away from microglial destruction of myelin but rather microglial destruction of oligodendrocytes (that make myelin), so I assume there would be more lag in the latter scenario as well, whereas HPPD issues have pretty fast onset on the comedown.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered by the doctor, I just don't know if I would put the thought in somebody's head.
 
He said valium helps him tremendously.... To me that speaks HPPD? It came on immediately after his roll!
 
To shugenja's credit, most of us on here got LTCs from non-tested MDMA or poly drug use
 
To be honest it would be my luck if MDMA caused the onset of MS.
My doctor has been running tests on me for months, I spoke about MS and she thinks it's highly unlikely. I've had extensive blood work, and they've found nothing wrong. I haven't been getting worse that for sure, I've actually been getting better, abit, very very very slowly. I remember at first, lines would wiggle, or huge signs, above shops would vibrate this has basically gone. Cotcha, when you mentioned your problems about reading, you've hit the nail on the head, I'm experiencing exactly that, combined with the headaches I get. Directly after my MDMA experience, I had daily headaches, from morning to night, fast forward to present day, I only get headaches now and again and they aren't as painful as they were. So that's getting better.
 
With regards to the likelyhood or even possibility of demyelination. In no way shape or form have I abused MDMA, I took 0.15g then another 0.15g around 2 hours later. Is that 'abuse''? Afterall there are many people on this board who have take much more than that weekly or even monthly. That's the only MDMA I have ever taken. My age is 22and I'm male.
 
shugenja said:
These "symptoms all consistent with serotonin dysfunction" are evident in every non-MDMA user that is prescribed an

SSRI
SSNRI
SNDRA

for mood disorders.


Like I said -- it may have been triggered by the EXPERIENCE of MDMA -- but it isn't damage in any way.
Click to expand...

Ok lets just put aside the damage word.

How can an LTC be triggered by the mere experience of MDMA if the "trip" itself was positive and did not have any adverse effects but the adverse effects only came after the MDMA trip itself was over and the comedown started. What causes the comedown to persist in the first place. How come people don't recover quickly within at most a week?

What even causes a comedown to occur in the first place? Maybe the answer to this can help answer what causes an LTC?
 
shugenja said:
These "symptoms all consistent with serotonin dysfunction" are evident in every non-MDMA user that is prescribed an
SSRI
SSNRI
SNDRA
for mood disorders.
Like I said -- it may have been triggered by the EXPERIENCE of MDMA -- but it isn't damage in any way.
Click to expand...

I should point out that SSRIs are known to cause an initial decrease in the firing of serotonergic neurons in cortex of animals - this is because of inhibitory feedback due to autoreceptor activation (which eventually desensitizes).

So essentially what you're saying is that drugs like SSRIs that can at first decrease serotonergic activity in the cortex cause symptoms similar to what some LTC sufferers experience, although I think there are definitely differences between the symptoms of people initiating SSRI therapy and LTC sufferers.

Anyways, you seem to keep emphasizing that its the person's response to the "experience" that matters, seemingly distancing the resulting syndrome from the action of the drug - this doesn't make sense to me because the experience, including the person's "reaction" to the experience, is all being modulated heavily by the drug.

You don't get to choose how the drug modulates your response to the experience, or how the drug modulates your experience in the first place.
 
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socrilus said:
Ok lets just put aside the damage word.

How can an LTC be triggered by the mere experience of MDMA if the "trip" itself was positive and did not have any adverse effects but the adverse effects only came after the MDMA trip itself was over and the comedown started. What causes the comedown to persist in the first place. How come people don't recover quickly within at most a week?

What even causes a comedown to occur in the first place? Maybe the answer to this can help answer what causes an LTC?
Click to expand...


You conveniently ignored "or HPA axis challenge".

Some persons have an HPA axis that cannot withstand the challenge by neurotransmitter cascade.

Regardless if the trip was positive the flood of serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, oxytocin, and cortisol --- can wreak havoc with the HPA axis.


People can cause HPA axis dysregulation by exercising too much.

I guess there could be two mechanisms:

1. the body simply cannot deal with the disruption to neurotransmitter, electrolyte, other catecholamine, and neuro-steroid homeostasis

2. the body over-corrects for the disruption to neurotransmitter, electrolyte, other catecholamine, and neuro-steroid homeostasis


Some people are like myself -- approaching my 50th year, it is light work to go through 8 -10 standard drinks and 200 mg of 5-APB over a 24 hour excursion, sleep for 8 -10 hours, and then repeat -- with no ill effects other than physical tiredness

others are not so ?? blessed ??
 
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To give a little bit of illumination to my position and perspective:

I abused alcohol - severely for more than a decade( I actually didn't use MDMA often at all during that decade or so) . I drank daily, 1.5 liters of wine was light drinking. When I decided to quit I was drinking the equivalent of a liter of 80 proof liquor to stave off the tremors.

I had tapered to 1 bottle of wine over the course of a few weeks and I started to have minor seizures, my body temperature was 102 F and I was sweating constantly.

To prevent delerium tremens -- I was put on 25mg oxazepam every 4 hours, then they switched that to 15 mg diazepam 3 times a day 1 mg clonazepam and celexa (benzos during alcohol withdrawal can cause suicidal depression).

I KNOW INTIMATELY the effects of HPA axis dysregulation -- I also know how much ruminating thoughts can MAGNIFY symptoms.

Long term alcohol abuse definitively causes actual morphological changes to the grey matter and white matter of the brain -- shrinks brain volume, and causes peripheral nerve damage akin to diabetic neuropathy (different mechanism).

SO I know about true structural damage to the brain caused by substance abuse -- and I can confidently say that one or a few recreational doeses of MDMA does not cause it.

It took 3 years for the effects of alcohol abuse (damage and withdrawal) to resolve.. (for concerned readers, I can take alcohol or leave it -- no compulsion or need to drink -- I can go without for weeks or months without an issue -- magic some say -- I say will)


For those that may feel I am minimizing your situation -- I'm not -- your suffering is real - to you

All I am offering is the information and theories I have based on recovery from HPA axis and GABA/glutamate dysregulation.

Crushing anxiety
tremors
brain zaps
fasciculations
night sweats for 9 straight months -- to the point that I had to change nightclothes 3-4 times a night
in the beginning, if i got 2 hours of sleep at a time (or a night) even as doped up on benzos as I was -- it was a good night

Then came the benzo taper -- another year of night sweats and anxiety

HPA axis dysregulation is a bitch

and it is almost a certainty what you call LTC
 
@shugenja - out of interest have you ever personally experienced a 'LTC' and the plethora of symptoms which it encapsulates?
 
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