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2g of MDMA = still dizzy 2.5 years on (brain damage?)

LTP does not happen from a single dose or even a few doses of a substance.

Wow, okay, so ignoring conditioned place preference and enhanced locomotion persisting for months after a one time dose of amphetamine in rodents, you're completely misunderstanding glutamate/NMDA dependent LTP. This is a process happening all the time - and I hope you're not conflating molecular LTP (that is, strengthening of a synapse/cell) and brain region hypertrophy. Yes, brain region hypertrophy won't happen within one day of a single dose, but LTP is occurring all the time... It is the process that fundamentally underlies learning and memory.

There are different phases to LTP, early phase happens pretty darn rapidly. Late phase is more dependent on gene transcription rather than just protein synthesis. There are also mechanisms like receptor phosphorylation that can happen during acute use of a drug.

Diabetic neuropathy after chronically elevated blood sugar and LTP are horrible comparisons..

Here.. http://www.pnas.org/content/93/24/13445/F4.large.jpg
 
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Aside from the graph showing that siphon withdrawal sensitization after shocks actually doesn't return to baseline after 7 days of extinction in most sensitization regimens, I think you have no idea what you just posted.

"Habituation is a very simple type of learning which involves the loss in response to a repeated stimulus which fails to provide any form of reinforcement (reward or punishment). It allows animals to ignore unimportant stimuli so they can concentrate on reinforced stimuli. The Aplysia’s gill withdraws its siphon when stimulated by a water jet. With repeated stimulation, Ca2+ channels become less responsive so less Ca2+ crosses the presynaptic nerve. Because less neurotransmitter is released there is less depolarization of postsynaptic membrane, so no action potential is triggered in the motor neurones.

After several minutes of repeated stimulation of the siphon the gill no longer withdraws from the stimulus. Habituation of this involuntary, defensive reflex of withdrawing the siphon to non-threatening stimuli like water currents allows the sea slug to continue to use its siphon, a structure equipped with chemoreceptors, to ‘smell’ or ‘taste’ the water in order to hunt for food."

So the siphon retraction response to stimuli doesn't actually return to baseline even after 7 days, and the graph is after 4 days of training. So there could still be a sensitization to siphon withdrawal 30 days later.

But LTP in spatial memory etc is a different matter.

If you manage to remember something that happened one time one day a month ago, its because of hippocampus dependent LTP. Things like acute stress can enhance aversive memory formation even further.
 
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Aside from the graph showing that siphon withdrawal sensitization after shocks actually doesn't return to baseline after 7 days of extinction in most sensitization regimens,

That is just straight up not true.

The only regimen that doesn't return to baseline by DAY 7 is 4 days of 4 shock trains.

If you can't be truthful we don't need to continue any discussions.

The graph goes from day1 to day 7 after training
 
I will give you that siphon withdrawal sensitization is still *significant* by the author's notes in only one group after 7 days extinction, but after 4 days extinction the siphon withdrawal sensitization is still significant in two groups, and the length of significant sensitization is solely dependent on the shock regimen, so the mechanism of sensitization via LTP after a short course of a stimuli still stands.. My main point is that sensitization can occur over an acute period, and you said "LTP does not happen from a single dose or even a few doses of a substance."

The brain cannot afford to remember everything so it is a sign of a functional neural network if some signal strength was being lost over time - if no strength was lost upon lack of reinforcement it would be a recipe for an epileptic disaster. So part of what the brain "chooses" to remember has to do with attentional processes, see for example reduction of aversive memory formation with blockade of adrenoceptors in the amygdala. We should also remember that the sea slug model is measuring autonomic reflexes in a very simple creature. This is not akin to memory in humans. We can remember one simple detail that was briefly revealed to us a year ago if our hippocampus is properly functioning.

BIOPSYCHOLOGY7e-Fig-17-23-0.jpg



This is a classic experiment showing LTP in hippocampus after treatment with tetanus - the tetanus elicits a stable and long lasting increase in the size of the post-synaptic response.

Here is a study showing that blockade of mGlu5, known to be important for LTP, impairs spatial learning. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14704216
"Robust LTP which lasted for over 25 h was generated using 200 Hz tetanization. MPEP (mGlu5 antagonist), applied in concentrations which did not affect basal synaptic transmission, dose-dependently impaired the induction and expression of LTP. Application of MPEP 5 min after tetanization inhibited late LTP (>24 h). The effects of daily MPEP application on performance in an eight-arm radial maze were evaluated.

MPEP-treated rats showed deficits in reference and working memory performance compared to vehicle-treated controls. Rearing, grooming and locomotor activity were unaffected in MPEP-treated animals. These data highlight the importance of mGlu5 for both LTP and spatial learning and emphasize the significance of these receptors for information storage on both synaptic and behavioural levels."


You can see here the LTP is not even confined to a particular synapse.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4929000/ - "Cell-specific synaptic plasticity induced by network oscillations" (2016)

"Gamma rhythms are known to contribute to the process of memory encoding. However, little is known about the underlying mechanisms at the molecular, cellular and network levels. Using local field potential recording in awake behaving mice and concomitant field potential and whole-cell recordings in slice preparations we found that gamma rhythms lead to activity-dependent modification of hippocampal networks, including alterations in sharp wave-ripple complexes. Network plasticity, expressed as long-lasting increases in sharp wave-associated synaptic currents, exhibits enhanced excitatory synaptic strength in pyramidal cells that is induced postsynaptically and depends on metabotropic glutamate receptor-5 activation.

In sharp contrast, alteration of inhibitory synaptic strength is independent of postsynaptic activation and less pronounced. Further, we found a cell type-specific, directionally biased synaptic plasticity of two major types of GABAergic cells, parvalbumin- and cholecystokinin-expressing interneurons. Thus, we propose that gamma frequency oscillations represent a network state that introduces long-lasting synaptic plasticity in a cell-specific manner."
 
I have no doubt that there are neuroscientists rolling over in their grave
"Robust LTP which lasted for over 25 h"

LTP for one day is not really LTP

It would be called TRANSIENT

it certainly doesn't account for supposed LTC that persists for weeks

Please stop with the BULLSHIT
 
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You can see here the LTP is not even confined to a particular synapse.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4929000/ - "Cell-specific synaptic plasticity induced by network oscillations" (2016)

Thus, we propose that gamma frequency oscillations represent a network state that introduces long-lasting synaptic plasticity in a cell-specific manner."

Funny how they don't state how long the the "network state" persists.

It's because it is quite transient.

This research is about using brainwave entrainment to enhance the STORAGE of new memories. It requires the new information to be sensed DURING the ENTRAINMENT period.
 
Jonj3

Here is a little bit of self help you can try.

Exercise might be good for repairing the brain. I believe it helps stimulate various different nerves and pathways in the brain and if exercise is vigourous it will also raise your anandamide which will help you feel normal

Something else for you to google and try to buy and try is Cannabidiol or CBD oil. It is the non psychoactive kinda like opposite to THC in weed and this may also help you feel 'normal'

Lastly

Lions Mane Mushroom appears to improve cognitive function and short term memory and overall brain 'sharpness'

I hope this helps
 
"Robust LTP which lasted for over 25 h"
LTP for one day is not really LTP
It would be called TRANSIENT
it certainly doesn't account for supposed LTC that persists for weeks
Please stop with the BULLSHIT

I think you're confusing learning that is supported by "persistent" processes like LTP and genuinely "transient" memory such as working memory. If a rodent runs a maze a couple of times, wakes up the next day and runs the maze even faster, its because there was LTP. Whether or not there is continued reinforcement of this memory/learning determines whether or not the memory will go extinct given enough time.

If there is continued reinforcement of something like the name or face of a friend, the memory won't go extinct. If the original learning period is strong enough, ie memories of trauma in PTSD, they won't go extinct. But even consciously recalling the memory would be enough to strengthen it again and delay its extinction/LTD.

That doesn't mean that there aren't benefits to having someone with PTSD recall their trauma (exposure therapy) but the benefits of techniques are centered more around loss of the strong emotional response rather than immediate loss of the objective recollection of the details - once the strong emotional response is subdued, the memory can then begin to go extinct (fear enhances the formation of aversive memories, a process facilitated by the amygdala acting in concert with the hippocampus).

So your idea that strengthening the response of an individual synapse for 24 hours doesn't have a persistent effect shows complete disregard for the idea that the brain is a network.

Funny how they don't state how long the the "network state" persists.
It's because it is quite transient.
This research is about using brainwave entrainment to enhance the STORAGE of new memories. It requires the new information to be sensed DURING the ENTRAINMENT period.

....Gamma oscillations are natural network oscillations that allow neurons to communicate with each other by synchronizing activity (UP/DOWN states), these oscillations are produced by a resonant loop between pyramidal cells and inhibitory interneurons. Gamma oscillations are very important in higher cognition and memory, this isn't something just artificially induced in a laboratory that has no relevance to in vivo...

I wouldn't view gamma oscillations as inherently carrying the relevant info that is to be encoded into long term memory, but rather the network oscillations are playing a permissive role in allowing communication between brain cells by timing their firing.

(From that study) "Changes in the strength of synapses – the connections between neurons – form the basis of learning and memory. This process, which is known as synaptic plasticity, incorporates transient experiences into persistent memory traces. However, a single synapse should not be viewed in isolation. Neurons typically belong to extensive networks made up of large numbers of cells, which show coordinated patterns of activity. The synchronized firing of the neurons in such a network is referred to as a network oscillation.

~Analysis of the underlying molecular, cellular and synaptic mechanisms in vitro slice preparations showed changes in SWR-associated excitatory synaptic strength between pyramidal cells (PC) that are mediated postsynaptically and depend on metabotropic glutamate receptor-5 (mGluR5) activation. In stark contrast to excitation, alteration of inhibitory synaptic strength was independent of postsynaptic activation and less pronounced, reflecting an IN-specific, directionally biased synaptic plasticity, as demonstrated in our study for two major GABAergic inhibitory cell types, PV- and CCK-expressing INs.

Our results suggest that gamma frequency oscillations represent a network state that promotes the formation of long-lasting synaptic plasticity in the hippocampal area CA3, leading to modification of synaptic strengths in a cell-specific manner."


Here is from Stanford http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n1/full/1301559a.html - "Experiences, whether they be learning in a classroom, a stressful event, or ingestion of a psychoactive substance, impact the brain by modifying the activity and organization of specific neural circuitry.

A major mechanism by which the neural activity generated by an experience modifies brain function is via modifications of synaptic transmission; that is, synaptic plasticity. Here, we review current understanding of the mechanisms of the major forms of synaptic plasticity at excitatory synapses in the mammalian brain. We also provide examples of the possible developmental and behavioral functions of synaptic plasticity and how maladaptive synaptic plasticity may contribute to neuropsychiatric disorders."

"Furthermore, administration of a single dose of several different classes of drugs of abuse causes a significant increase in synaptic strength at excitatory synapses onto dopamine cells in the VTA (Faleiro et al, 2004; Saal et al, 2003; Ungless et al, 2001). This increase shares mechanisms with LTP in the VTA and appears to involve upregulation of AMPARs (Ungless et al, 2001). This drug-induced ‘LTP’ appears to play a functional role in triggering or mediating some drug-induced behavioral adaptations, as both conditioned place preference and behavioral sensitization are blocked by injection of glutamate receptor antagonists into the VTA (Harris and Aston-Jones, 2003; Vanderschuren and Kalivas, 2000)."


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669702/ "Sensitizing Regimens of MDMA (Ecstasy) Elicit Enduring and Differential Structural Alterations in the Brain Motive Circuit of the Rat"

"Following a 4-week drug-free period, MDMA-pretreated rats displayed behavioral sensitization, as well as large increases in spine density and the number of multiple-headed spines on medium spiny neurons in core and shell subregions of nucleus accumbens. In medial prefrontal cortex, the prelimbic subregion showed increased spine density on distal dendrites of layer V pyramidal neurons, while the anterior cingulate subregion showed a change in the distribution of dendritic material instead.

Collectively, our results show that long-lasting locomotor sensitization to MDMA is accompanied by reorganization of synaptic connectivity in limbic-cortico-striatal circuitry. The differential plasticity in cortical subregions, moreover, suggests that drug-induced structural changes are not homogeneous and may be specific to the circuitry underlying long-term changes in drug-seeking and drug-taking behavior."

nihms97470f4.jpg


Here are the neuroplastic changes to dendrites in the NAcc of rats 4 weeks after a 3 week sensitizing treatment protocol with MDMA.


To the OP: I'm sorry about all the debating :| Just to be clear, I'm not saying any of this debate is relevant to you, I still think you could be having problems with chronic deconditioning etc and that cardio is your best bet.
 
Idk much about all the neuro theory stuff but...

My point is lets say whatever it is (neuroplasticity, HPA dysregulation, a combo of various things, something else entirely, etc) is transient. Regardless of whether its transient or not isn't it still an adverse effect which is highly problematic?

Why do some people get absolutely no mood symptoms at all on the comedown whereas others do? And then a small proportion get the LTC symptoms right then and some others (still a small portion) get them later.

And then sure it can become a vicious cycle but how are you to even know which of the various groups you would fall in?? Transient still gives no indication of how long the symptoms will last.

Even if you claim "oh it unveiled a mood disorder" or HPA dysfunction well how would you know that it would do that in advance? And how is that psychological and how would it have occured in the absence of external stressors if you say MDMA isn't the trigger of it.

Imo though saying or implying "MDMA doesnt cause adverse effects" is wrong because effects even if supposedly impermanant or transient are still major issues.
 
I

Here are the neuroplastic changes to dendrites in the NAcc of rats 4 weeks after a 3 week sensitizing treatment protocol with MDMA.

"Rats received 2 daily injections of either 5.0 mg/kg (±)-MDMA or saline vehicle, ~6 hr apart, for 3 consecutive days, "

Thats injections of 30 mg/kg

Equivalent to over 30 pills in 3 days

Like I said -- it doesn't happen after a single dose.

Thanks for proving my point
 
Idk much about all the neuro theory stuff but...

My point is lets say whatever it is (neuroplasticity, HPA dysregulation, a combo of various things, something else entirely, etc) is transient. Regardless of whether its transient or not isn't it still an adverse effect which is highly problematic?

Why do some people get absolutely no mood symptoms at all on the comedown whereas others do? And then a small proportion get the LTC symptoms right then and some others (still a small portion) get them later.

.

Because a small (very small) percentage of people cannot withstand an emotional or HPA axis challenge. ANd it is extremely likely that a large percentage of LTC -- is in actuality an undisclosed or unknown pre-existing mood disorder.

Some people just cannot deal with the "my life is really crap" sledgehammer to the psyche that happens during the post-MDMA introspection. Instead of rising to the challenge and demanding change from themselves

they resign themselves to defeat.

Others don't seek treatment for the PTDS/HPA axis dysregulation (caused by the inability of their physiology to respond favorably to the catecholamine and other neurotransmitter flood) and the reinforcing nature of the fight-or-flight rresponse leads to a persistent hyper-adrenalized or persistent depressive state.

My words may be harsh -- but they are true.
 
Sounds like serotonin overload. Electric shock sensations, sleep paralysis, weird "sounds" when you move your eyes and other such things are often related to serotonergic drugs like 4-FA and MDMA (at least for me). I always get a lightheaded, dizzy and hot feeling on the comeup of MDMA as well. Sounds like you got stuck in some nasty version of that sensation for a long time. I'm sorry, that must be awful :(

Does that mean your brain is physically damaged? Maybe. If it's physically damaged, will it recover? Sadly, that's one of the things that's not known about MDMA and similar drugs. They appear to damage brain structures but it's not known exactly how that translates into real-world functioning or whether it's fully reversible. It's possible that with time and rest your brain will return to its baseline state if you avoid abusing drugs and take care of yourself. (I went through something similar with benzo abuse and it took 2.5 years to regain my cognitive and emotional homeostasis. But it did return). People can claim your experience is impossible based on animal studies and data, but ANYTHING is possible in vivo, as we all react differently to substances in the real world.

I would definitely recommend talking to a doctor about your symptoms. Be honest about when they started and why you believe they exist. That's your best hope for getting help. Maybe there's a medication or treatment out there that can alleviate the dizziness until your brain rights itself.

Feel better~
 
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"Rats received 2 daily injections of either 5.0 mg/kg (±)-MDMA or saline vehicle, ~6 hr apart, for 3 consecutive days, "
Thats injections of 30 mg/kg
Equivalent to over 30 pills in 3 days
Like I said -- it doesn't happen after a single dose.
Thanks for proving my point
Did you complete ignore these studies?

"Furthermore, administration of a single dose of several different classes of drugs of abuse causes a significant increase in synaptic strength at excitatory synapses onto dopamine cells in the VTA (Faleiro et al, 2004; Saal et al, 2003; Ungless et al, 2001). This increase shares mechanisms with LTP in the VTA and appears to involve upregulation of AMPARs (Ungless et al, 2001). This drug-induced ‘LTP’ appears to play a functional role in triggering or mediating some drug-induced behavioral adaptations, as both conditioned place preference and behavioral sensitization are blocked by injection of glutamate receptor antagonists into the VTA (Harris and Aston-Jones, 2003; Vanderschuren and Kalivas, 2000)."

I'll remind you that you said "LTP does not happen from a single dose or even a few doses of a substance", which is completely ridiculous on the face of it if you consider how many synapses are being potentiated every second of every day. Are you saying that MDMA or any psychoactive drug isn't going to lead to a single post-synaptic depolarization -> activation of an NMDA receptor -> trafficking of more AMPA receptors to that synapse? It happens all the time under normal neurotransmission and obviously MDMA is significantly influencing neurotransmission..

Now ignoring what I've been told regarding rats metabolizing MDMA faster (therefore higher dosages not being completely ridiculous), the dendritic morphology study I posted is more to due with addiction related neuroplastic genetics like DeltaFosB - that being said, I don't know why you would discount such a study completely if it shows vast changes to dendritic morphology after large doses. A more reasonable interpretation would be that you would just see less dendritic changes with lower dosages rather than zero change.. Not that the OP of this post didn't take 2g of MDMA in two days anyways by the way..
 
Some people just cannot deal with the "my life is really crap" sledgehammer to the psyche that happens during the post-MDMA introspection. Instead of rising to the challenge and demanding change from themselves

they resign themselves to defeat.
My words may be harsh -- but they are true.

Again with the new age Deepak Chopra stuff.

If people just "rise to the challenge and demand change from themselves" will they cure their HPPD? Will they grow another 6 inches too? What if the biological mechanisms by which they would "demand change from themselves" have been hindered by the drug?

Is somebody right in the thick of amphetamine psychosis or a bad psychedelic trip just going to "rise to the challenge" and they'll return to normal? I'm not saying that mindfulness and a good attitude isn't important but I'm not convinced that people should be blamed for developing an adverse reaction to xyz drug any more than they should be blamed for having a certain eye color.

See for example the surgeon general's statements about addiction "We must help everyone see that addiction is not a character flaw — it is a chronic illness that we must approach with the same skill and compassion with which we approach heart disease, diabetes, and cancer."
 
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I'd like to see evidence for this statement.

(hint: there is none, it's pure speculation)
Because a small (very small) percentage of people cannot withstand an emotional or HPA axis challenge. ANd it is extremely likely that a large percentage of LTC -- is in actuality an undisclosed or unknown pre-existing mood disorder.

Some people just cannot deal with the "my life is really crap" sledgehammer to the psyche that happens during the post-MDMA introspection. Instead of rising to the challenge and demanding change from themselves

they resign themselves to defeat.

Others don't seek treatment for the PTDS/HPA axis dysregulation (caused by the inability of their physiology to respond favorably to the catecholamine and other neurotransmitter flood) and the reinforcing nature of the fight-or-flight rresponse leads to a persistent hyper-adrenalized or persistent depressive state.

My words may be harsh -- but they are true.
You are so off the mark, it's laughable
 
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