16mg clonazepam a day...

[burn out]

there's nothing wrong with it. if you want to set a goal of reducing your dosage that is fine. that is actually what i did myself, since coming off seemed too difficult.

what i said was a warning because when you do finally get off, you will regret every single day you spent on benzos. so the gist of what i am saying is, you want to get off sooner rather than later, that's all. and there is no bias against benzos here, benzos actually are that bad.

as for what type of brain damage, i am talking about serious cognitive, emotional and neurological deficits that occasionally persist for many years after someone has withdrawn completely from the drugs. at your dosage level, you would be at high risk for these sorts of problems. imagine cognitive impairment so bad you cannot work for a few years. isn't the whole reason you created this thread because you were worried about the risks of taking such a high dose of clonazepam?

why is it approved by the FDA?

a lot of dangerous drugs were approved by the FDA and only got taken off the shelves when they started killing massive amounts of people. the relationship between the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA is anything but a healthy one.

 

[burn out]

anyway, surely there must be some commonly known info on "benzo brain damage" if it exists,

i posted some research in this thread: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=479520

still, it is a painfully under researched condition. dr ashton was denied the funding to carry out more sophisticated brain scans on former long term benzo users.

i understand how frightening and difficult this is. i went through all the same things you are and i am still going through them. it is very hard to accept the truth about these drugs. please try to remember i am only trying to help you though, as best i know how. keep in mind that not everyone who gets off benzos ends up permanently damaged. there are people who recover, even from high doses. there is certainly hope for you. it's just that the longer you continue taking them, the more of that hope sinks down the drain.

 

[FractalStructure]

Alright, its my second day on a decreased dose, and I guess just the symbolism of it is a good thing, although I am thoroughly frightened due to the claims of brain damage, my inability to just stop taking the drug (due to the consequences), and hell, every stressor in my life seems amplified. Today I cut a tiny bit more than .5 off, but thats just cuz breaking a 2mg teva into 4 is just impossible.

Anyway, what should I expect as I decrease my dose, lets say at a fairly slow-ish (SAFE) rate?
Thats really all I want to know. Am I gonna get psychotic, schizo-ish symptoms? I've heard that decreasing slowly isn't something to worry about.

 

[dsherman65]

addicted to clonazapam

HI i am new here i have been on clonazapam 0.5 twice a day more depends on my day i want to get off this drug as soon as possible can anyone here help give me some advice i have reduced down in the last 2 weeks to half of this having panic attacks but i was also having them when i took the full dosage i don"t go in public very much stay all to myself and my marriage has really suffered for this i want this drug out of my system the only thing this drug does is help me sleep if i take more of it then it does the opposite most of the time i just take it so i want give a shit about anything but i dont want this kind of life anymore i want to be able to handle my problems without drugs will i ever feel like myself again should i go to detox or continue at home if i do at home how long for i will be drug free

 

[burn out]

Alright, its my second day on a decreased dose, and I guess just the symbolism of it is a good thing, although I am thoroughly frightened due to the claims of brain damage, my inability to just stop taking the drug (due to the consequences), and hell, every stressor in my life seems amplified. Today I cut a tiny bit more than .5 off, but thats just cuz breaking a 2mg teva into 4 is just impossible.

Anyway, what should I expect as I decrease my dose, lets say at a fairly slow-ish (SAFE) rate?
Thats really all I want to know. Am I gonna get psychotic, schizo-ish symptoms? I've heard that decreasing slowly isn't something to worry about.

you can expect the typical benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms. usually you won't get all of them at once, rather different ones will crop up and disappear and come back for a while and you may have 3 or 4 that bother you the most. it is different for everyone. psychotic, schizo-ish type symptoms are extremely rare with a slow taper.

for me, i did not get any bad symptoms until i got under 2 mg. many people who have been on high doses are able to drop a significant portion of their dosage without any bad symptoms occurring, so i would not get too worried yet if i were you. the worst symptoms for me have been cognitive and memory impairment (feeling unable to think), depression, lack of emotions, sensitivity to sound, irritability, off balance feelings and overall weakness. i recommend reading the ashton manual for anyone beginning a taper off benzodiazepines. she lists all the common symptoms and gives tips on how to deal with some of them.

 

[burn out]

HI i am new here i have been on clonazapam 0.5 twice a day more depends on my day i want to get off this drug as soon as possible can anyone here help give me some advice i have reduced down in the last 2 weeks to half of this having panic attacks but i was also having them when i took the full dosage i don"t go in public very much stay all to myself and my marriage has really suffered for this i want this drug out of my system the only thing this drug does is help me sleep if i take more of it then it does the opposite most of the time i just take it so i want give a shit about anything but i dont want this kind of life anymore i want to be able to handle my problems without drugs will i ever feel like myself again should i go to detox or continue at home if i do at home how long for i will be drug free

have you read the ashton manual? she answers all those questions. in short, continue tapering down gradually, don't go to detox and you will feel like yourself again though it may take a while.

 

[Pegasus]

A benzo taper isn't really too unpleasant IMO until the last little bit (like the last 0.5 - 1mg clonazepam)... Up till that point, as long as I went slowly, there would be almost no unpleasantness at all, just slightly less effects when taking the reduced dose. Adjusting to not being medicated was truly the issue I faced, not withdrawal.

 

[bagochina]

16mg daily is a monster of a dose, fuck. I was taking 8mg klonopin and 2mg ativan for about 8 years and by far the hardest thing I have had to deal with my whole life was getting of those meds, ugh.

I was convinced or I convinced myself that I needed to take a benzo to function each day. I used them as an aid at first for kicking heroin and the anxiety that came with it. Than after awhile I couldn't function with out them and I was ok with that as I had some other issues on the burners and this one was fine, and I set it on the back burner. Finally I got around to dealing with my benzo issue/addiction and kicking the pills to the curb was just the beginning.

I took the pills because I was a dope fiend and I liked drugs, yeah I had some anxiety but my [un]natural solution to this dilemma was to medicate, and heavily over medicate at that. The aftermath of this was not good. My anxiety and self confidence issues skyrocketed [as to be expected] after ceasing pills. I was a bigger mess than I was when I first started those pills. They definitely put my through the wringer and out I came shaking, unsure, nervous, a grade A wreck, and to top it all of my most solid coping skill was gone.

Its been almost a year since I stopped taking those and I am finally starting to feel ALOT better. Time was what was needed for me and dedicating time to understand why I act the way I do and than taking steps and making a effort to change what I didn't like about myself. It is so nice not having to rely on benzos each day or any day for that matter. I am not feeling numb each day, each day my life is reminding me less of that dreary, muted toned, water colored wash picture that used to be.

Anyways I am starting to ramble but IME I always found that it was better to make large drastic cuts in the beginning because they were always less noticed and it is much easier to get down to a dosage that is manageable. A dose where there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If that is your goal.

I know at times I would be taking 10mg a day + others and I would cut my dose down to 4mgs and than stagger the dose up slightly the next couple days and than drop back down to 3-4mgs. Until I got where I needed to be to really start detoxing. I took a pretty aggressive detox once I was down to 2mgs and still am shaky some days.

That is a lot to read, sorry...

Peace,
Seedless

 

[FractalStructure]

^No, its not... thanks. Its sad that it took a year for you to feel better, and for the record, I've only been on them for about 2 years, maybe one year at high doses, i started out on just 30mg temazepam.... sigh, if i could turn back time.

was convinced or I convinced myself that I needed to take a benzo to function each day. I used them as an aid at first for kicking heroin and the anxiety that came with it. Than after awhile I couldn't function with out them and I was ok with that as I had some other issues on the burners and this one was fine, and I set it on the back burner. Finally I got around to dealing with my benzo issue/addiction and kicking the pills to the curb was just the beginning.

^This is how I started my first benzo: temazepam, and that description fits perfectly, only difference is i was using oxycodone (which i dont anymore, but I have to take suboxone, since I dont think I can handle decreasing both of these drugs at the same time, and KP currently takes priority)

I'd like to address the ways that it SEEMS (at least) benzos affect my life currently:

-Panic. I'm so scared that I'm taking a dose this high, I'm always wondering what its doing to me, I dont FEEL it too much, I'm afraid to even smoke weed lately, one of the few things that does usually help me, because I'll start thinking too much. On the other hand, I also get panicky REDUCING my dose cuz I wonder what going down on 16mg might do to me... (not to mention the fear of more panic)

-Urinary crap. I dont know if this is even truly related, I always feel like I have to go pee, but this is also just a sign of anxiety, which I've had lots of lately. It would scare the fuck out of me if it was actually CAUSED by the klonopin (i.e. if benzos actually fuck up your urinary tract directly)

-I feel like... even though everything "breaks through" to me, I am living with my head in the clouds. Im not as motivated as I was, I'm harder to excite (almost nothing excites me lately...) I sometimes feel callous and dissociated (even though, every here and there I'll have an INTENSE flood of emotions that will make me feel alive again, and make me cry usually).

Even when I started taking these insane doses, EVEN when they had more of a direct effect on me, and MIND YOU I'VE TAKEN 32MG/DAY FOR WEEKS SOMETIMES. I dont know what the fuck I was thinking, it was just due to my tolerance.... now my actual question is this:

Lets say I am actively decreasing my dose and all that shit, I have already started as I mentioned before, lets say that this takes a while, I will say that my goal is to be happy without these fucking meds by this time next new year's..

The fact that I have to continue taking them, will another year fuck me further, even if i am decreasing? I'm thinking, fuck it, I may try some crazy fast detox and if something goes wrong have my gf inject me with midazolam or something.... I'm running out of options.

Is there anything I can switch to, maybe like, half and half? Just as an example, what if i took 8mg of klonopin and instead of 8mg of more klonopin at night, I took 6mg xanax or maybe something with a long half life (the problem is... it prolly cant be valium cuz its not potent enough), this way, maybe I would risk less problems? Any ideas from people that know benzos would be very helpful!

Happy new year's, you can probably guess what my resolution is gonna be

PS: I do have GAD if that matters, or at least I'm diagnosed with it and have convinced myself I have it

 

[burn out]

-Panic. I'm so scared that I'm taking a dose this high, I'm always wondering what its doing to me, I dont FEEL it too much, I'm afraid to even smoke weed lately, one of the few things that does usually help me, because I'll start thinking too much. On the other hand, I also get panicky REDUCING my dose cuz I wonder what going down on 16mg might do to me... (not to mention the fear of more panic)

yeah its funny how when you're on benzos you end up worrying so much about what the benzo is doing to you that the idea of taking the benzo to help anxiety becomes absurd. worrying about benzos can become a major SOURCE of anxiety.

-Urinary crap. I dont know if this is even truly related, I always feel like I have to go pee, but this is also just a sign of anxiety, which I've had lots of lately. It would scare the fuck out of me if it was actually CAUSED by the klonopin (i.e. if benzos actually fuck up your urinary tract directly)

i'm almost sure it's the klonopin. i have had the same thing from xanax. i don't think it is actual damage to the urinary tract though, at least i don't think it's permanent. of course there's always the possibility that something else is wrong too, so don't hesitate to get it checked if you're so inclined. but like i said, i am almost sure it's the benzos.

Lets say I am actively decreasing my dose and all that shit, I have already started as I mentioned before, lets say that this takes a while, I will say that my goal is to be happy without these fucking meds by this time next new year's..

The fact that I have to continue taking them, will another year fuck me further, even if i am decreasing? I'm thinking, fuck it, I may try some crazy fast detox and if something goes wrong have my gf inject me with midazolam or something.... I'm running out of options.

basically, no. a crazy fast detox will not help you. when people do that, they often end up experiencing strong withdrawal symptoms for years to come. it doesn't speed up the process at all. the brain changes induced by benzos take a long time to reverse, so getting the benzos out of your system doesn't solve the problem. it is much more tolerable to go down slowly and hopefully your brain will begin to revert even while you're tapering. the only sort of quick detoxing i might recommend for you would be to try to make some large cuts now, since you're on such a high dose you might find your dose is higher than the amount your body actually needs to function and thus you could cut off some big chunks fairly easily. but you definitely want to go slowly once you're nearing getting off the klonopin.

Is there anything I can switch to, maybe like, half and half? Just as an example, what if i took 8mg of klonopin and instead of 8mg of more klonopin at night, I took 6mg xanax or maybe something with a long half life (the problem is... it prolly cant be valium cuz its not potent enough), this way, maybe I would risk less problems? Any ideas from people that know benzos would be very helpful!

the only things that would make sense to switch to would be valium or librium. valium isn't as "potent" but you can make up for that simply by increasing the amount you take. ashton says that 1 mg of klonopin is approximately equal to 20 mg of valium. so if you use that equivalency, it should work. right now though, i think you should focus on getting your dose down to a more manageable level and then you can decide whether or not you want to switch over to valium. simply replacing part of your dose with another benzo is not going to help at all.

 

[Colmes]

well, in worst case benzo WD ive heard of people having small to mild seizures. Ive also heard one hard part is the mental aspect of it. you just gotta keep strong and do shit like delete your dlrs numbers. good luck man

I can take so many benzos, and no anxiety relief.

And then we have this guy, who clearly knows jack about benzos - at least their extremely fucking dangerous withdraws.

WORST CASE SCENARIO IS DEATH.

Also you get rebound anxiety for like months upon months upon months.

"gotta stay strong" Thats like telling someone who is having a heart attack to relax and stay off the blood pressure medication.

God i'm sorry but you just dont know the horrors of benzo w/d . I cant fucking sleep I was supposed to sigh up for class I take 8mg of ativan, 6mg klonopin, 20mg valium and i'm still awake and still angry. Fun

 

[Wings of wax]

My thoughts:

1. Stop doing other drugs, especially weed. Doing illicit drugs, especially weed, wíll increase your anxiety levels and be counterproductive to your tapering. I cannot stress this enough.

2. You should really be doing this with your doctor, especially since you on bupe treatment. Please consider this very carefully, you really need supervision.

3. To the other posters: Be careful not to employ scare tactics, intentionally or unintentionally. This includes talk about brain damage and other bad long term effects. Firstly, there's very little science to back up these claims, secondly, everybody reacts differently, so there's no way to predict how the OP will come out of this, and thirdly, scaring the OP is directly counterproductive to his tapering.

OP, you can do this, and you can come out on the other side without long term effects. Many other people have done so, and with time, you will feel normal.

 

[Tommyboy]

I am tapering off xanax, so can tell you my experience. I was on 2mg daily from 2005-2006, then 3mg daily until september 2009. In september, I realized that the xanax wasn't helping much, however my anxiety wasn't that bad. Xananx and Klonopin are almost equivalent in terms of mg, but Klonopin has the longer half-life. You should defenitely taper somewhat, and in time your anxiety may subside allowing you to really work to get completely off of benzos. So in september I was having trouble finding a psychiatrist where I goto school, and a cancelled appointment made me have to stretch out my script. I calculated how much I could drop until I finally got to see a doctor (I no longer had health insurance so was relying on the school health insurace and no psych at my school). I managed to drop from 3 mg daily to 1.5-2mg daily. The first week was tough, but once my body got used to the lower dosage, it was just as effective as my previously higher dose. I finally found a psychiatrist and told him that my goal was to taper. He put me on xanax xr at 1.5mg daily which I started around thanksgiving. Since the XR formula has a slower onset I was taking 1.5 whereas I had gotten down to 1mg of the regular xanax a week prior to the appointment. Since my anxiety isnt as bad as it was, I am basically just consuming enough to have in my system to prevent w.d's. After the month on 1.5, I was put on 1mg daily (10 days ago)and experienced little discomfort. My next taper will be Jan 23rd and will reduce to .25mg 3xdaily so a total of .75mg a day. In the passed, I would not have been able to taper like this, but since my anxiety is not as bad as it was I am doing alright. That is why I suggest lowering your dosage, but not trying to get off of it completely until you anxiety gets better. I never thought that mine would, but it has. You may find the same affect at a lower dose once your body gets used to it. Lowering the dose may increase your anxiety but possibly only for 3-4 days until you get used to less. You may find that the lower dose has the same effect as the higher dose once you give yourself a chance to adjust. This way, when you taper to get off of the meds, you will be starting at a lower initial dose. Like I said, you may not be mentally prepared to taper off just yet, but you should try to get you dose lower so that when the time comes, you will be tapering off of a lower dose. I take my dose 2x daily, once at about 11am, and the second around 6pm since the XR formula doesnt have me anxious between doses. You may want to look into Xanax XR since it does have a very similar potency to Klonopin, but lasts longer due to the XR mechanism. Regular xanax has a very short half-life as i'm sure you know, so people tapering off of that usually swith to valium, but now with the XR version it in now being used to taper, and you don't have to convert mg's. Just my 2cents, I know everybody is different, but figured its always good to hear from somebody that actually knows 1st-hand.

 

[FractalStructure]

^ thats pretty much what I've been doing, I'm down by nearly a mg now (I'm doing this very slowly, its been 9 days since the past cut) in order to prevent any nasty problems. And yeah, thanks for not using scare tactics, they usually just backfire anyway, they're good for simply adding to my anxiety and nothing else.

Wings, I agree with everything you said except the thing about weed. Its one of the very few things that helps me quite a bit. I dont do any other drugs currently.

I'm also in the process of quitting cigs, which may add to my mood problems.

Tommyboy, my parents are in the medical field, so I AM supervised, plus I get klonopin from a doc (not my parents, lol, a psychiatrist) and I've told him about my self-detox, he thinks its a good idea as long as I go very slowly. And thanks for the first hand experience, I wish you luck as well, although I will say that I wish the dose I was taking regularly was as low as yours =/

 

[Wings of wax]

FS: Weed amplifies anxiety. It is an insidious drug, because it seems to relieve stress, and doesn't have an apparent comedown. But weed does cause anxiety in the long term, and people with anxiety problems should stay away from it. Completely.

If you don't stop smoking weed, you will have a very, very hard time tapering off the benzos. Quitting weed is imperative, if you have problems with anxiety.

 

[FractalStructure]

So, should I concentrate on quitting my pot use before I go down on the benzos? lol. Seriously, if weed gave me a problem I wouldnt use it. =/ I think you should understand that everyone is different and cannabis helps me alot in most instances.

 

[panic in paradise]

helps me and my anxiety, amongst many other things health related.

but my wife for instance, can not tolerate it, it sends her into a swirl of paranoia, it is different for everyone. CCBD's are actually being explored for use with or instead of neuroleptics in some cases, it sure gives me a healthy realistic 3rd person point of view while going through psychosis, depression, or anxiety.

but again, it has the opposite effect on some, and if you are suffering from a psychological d/o and you smoke pot chronically, try not smoking and see how you feel after a couple of months.

 

[Wings of wax]

If you suffer from anxiety, pot will make it worse in the long term. It may appear to "help", but it's helping on borrowed time. Sure, people are different, but if you are experiencing major anxiety and you smoke pot, the first suspect should be the pot itself.

Yes, you should definitely stop smoking weed before you continue your tapering further. I know you don't want to hear this, I have been there myself, but like PiP said, you should at least stop for a while and see if your anxiety gets better. I am almost 100% sure that it will, and that your tapering will seem a whole lot easier if you don't smoke weed.

Good luck!

 

[burn out]

^ thats pretty much what I've been doing, I'm down by nearly a mg now (I'm doing this very slowly, its been 9 days since the past cut) in order to prevent any nasty problems. And yeah, thanks for not using scare tactics, they usually just backfire anyway, they're good for simply adding to my anxiety and nothing else.

the only reason i used scare tactics was because you mentioned you were considering not getting off benzos right away. i just wanted to make sure you understood that in order to maximize your chances of recovery, you should not dilly dally. benzo withdrawal effects different people very differently and there are people who recover from high doses with no permanent damage.

as for weed, i agree that it is an insidious drug. it often starts out very positively with few negative effects but over time it increases anxiety levels, sometimes to extreme degrees. the severe anxiety i developed from weed is one of the things that caused me to take benzos. they gave me such wonderful relief from it, at first.

however, if you're not yet at the point where weed is causing you anxiety, i think it could be compatible with a benzo taper. i used weed to help me get off effexor xr before weed began giving me anxiety and it worked wonderfully. i barely even felt the withdrawal when i was stoned and it completely got rid of the nausea.

 

[FractalStructure]

^obviously the effect of cannabis varies widely from person to person, and does change a bit with time/frequency/etc. Anyway, for me usually it will just give me a more positive outlook on a situation that seems completely negative, something that psychedelics do as well.

I've been wanting to trip lately so bad, they are the only drugs i actually think are worth doing (and i dont even consider them "drugs" just "tools", if anything they show me what i actually NEED to do in order to better myself and my life)

IN FACT when i last tripped (i think last time was 4-aco-DMT) it really made me feel bad about being on any meds and all that, i felt like i had betrayed myself (and i guess i have)