Stimulants Caffeine, Safe but counter-productive stimulant?

[Redington]

I don't know about other stimulants, but caffeine in my past experience has been a double-edged sword. Meaning, It gave me energy but at the same time it stripped me of energy later on, on the same day. And of course, with regular use came tolerance and with tolerance came the need to drink more, and so, having at the end of the day even less energy.
I've had my periods of binge drinking, and last time, a few years back, I really overdid it, drinking from a big mug daily. I've managed to quit it, but afterwards I had one of the worst headaches of my life. If you really want to quit it, you can, you just have to hold on.

Also, I've found out that the only true way to get the same energy you get from coffee (and more) is with a healthy lifestyle: move your body regularly during the week, sleep about 7-8 hours per night, feed your body well, maybe do some meditation. That's what I'm doing anyway. Highly recommended!

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

This one research implied that caffeine does not cause any benefit on alertness or focus long-term if it is not consumed as coffee. Whether that is for coffees other ingredients or ritual was not studied, but it was hypothesized to be the latter-but apparently then caffeine use seemed to genuinely have some potential for benefitting ones life.

I have theory; low-dose amphetamine can be vastly better for individual than caffeine use if caffeine is not good fit. So bad people often end up increasing the dose over time, leading to episodes of abuse that are so terribly harmful and even dangerous, so, I can not exactly recommend trying it.

 

[Neuroprotection]

The only reason I use caffeine is to overcome sleepiness/drowsiness. It is counterproductive for anything related to productivity because it just raises my HR and anxiety--I'm most productive when I'm calm. Other than feeling less sleepy, I would never use caffeine. But amphetamines are different story--I take them daily for ADHD and they're way way superior, of course. I use to take modafinil and armodafinil instead of caffeine to overcome the anxiety/agitation/jittery and increased HR it causes--since both those drugs help overcome drowsiness but also don't give anxiety or agitation. I also used to get headaches with caffeine.

Totally agree. The only reasons I ever use caffeine is to fight off sleepiness and avoid severe withdrawal headaches. I do suspect I may have ADHD/ADD Which is a diagnosed, probably being must find my good grades. I got a university which is undiagnosed, probably being masked by my good grades I got at university and the fact that my family/parents don’t believe in ADHD as a common disorder or medication as the answer.
Interesting you mentioned modafinil, did that work just as well as amphetamine for you?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I don't know about other stimulants, but caffeine in my past experience has been a double-edged sword. Meaning, It gave me energy but at the same time it stripped me of energy later on, on the same day. And of course, with regular use came tolerance and with tolerance came the need to drink more, and so, having at the end of the day even less energy.
I've had my periods of binge drinking, and last time, a few years back, I really overdid it, drinking from a big mug daily. I've managed to quit it, but afterwards I had one of the worst headaches of my life. If you really want to quit it, you can, you just have to hold on.

Also, I've found out that the only true way to get the same energy you get from coffee (and more) is with a healthy lifestyle: move your body regularly during the week, sleep about 7-8 hours per night, feed your body well, maybe do some meditation. That's what I'm doing anyway. Highly recommended!

Very true. Actually, the process of quitting caffeine should be very easy for me and I can use ibuprofen to block the headaches on the first day. my main obstacle to quitting At the moment is my job and lifestyle. I live with a large family in a busy household and this job, which is my first is unfortunately a remote working Job. I now realise I might not be a morning person and my kronertype may be later since I’ve always felt more productive and focused later in the Day/evening. unfortunately, I’ve always been forced to wake up early and now, with the lack of stimulation and added grogginess caused by working from home, i’ve come to rely on caffeine just to get out of bed. once I finish my short-term employment contract, I will quit caffeine before starting a new job.

 

[Neuroprotection]

This one research implied that caffeine does not cause any benefit on alertness or focus long-term if it is not consumed as coffee. Whether that is for coffees other ingredients or ritual was not studied, but it was hypothesized to be the latter-but apparently then caffeine use seemed to genuinely have some potential for benefitting ones life.

I have theory; low-dose amphetamine can be vastly better for individual than caffeine use if caffeine is not good fit. So bad people often end up increasing the dose over time, leading to episodes of abuse that are so terribly harmful and even dangerous, so, I can not exactly recommend trying it.

In my opinion, at least I think caffeine is more beneficial for physical activity or simple mental tasks, but not complex mental tasks which require a lot of focus and thinking. caffeine, even independently of coffee, certainly has a lot of health benefits and I found it to really improve my mood on many occasions. unfortunately, it only seems to do so when I have no work to do and I’m free to pursue my hobbies. The nervous/excited energy it provides is perfect when I’m doing nothing and just need a bit of uplifting. however, as soon as I need to use my brain and do some work, that energy often turns into extreme anxiety and my mind can feel scattered. i’m sure caffeine works brilliantly for many people but I definitely think it’s affects can be over exaggerated in the media. some have attributed the stimulant effects of caffeine to the enlightenment period and the success of the industrial revolution. I have no doubt it probably helped, but other factors like the cultural importance of coffee and the exchange of ideas it brought about were probably more important. apparently, Thomas Edison was a big fan of caffeine and electronic bright light because he wrongly thought they could work together to eliminate sleep, which he wrongly believed was a waste of time and an impediment to human success.
In regards to amphetamine, I’m fully aware that the risk of addiction is much greater, but stringent monitoring and sticking only to oral administration along with use only on an as needed basis can prevent this. from what i’ve heard, amphetamine at reasonable doses promotes focus and optimism whilst working on a task. I actually read a study about methylphenidate doing the same thing, like amphetamine, it didn’t improve memory in healthy or ADHD students, but instead made their brains focus much more on the rewarding aspects of finishing the tasks, rather than on the difficulty and effort needed to initiate it.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7739593/ yes, it seems to support huge power output

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

In regards to amphetamine, I’m fully aware that the risk of addiction is much greater, but stringent monitoring and sticking only to oral administration along with use only on an as needed basis can prevent this.

yes, some people repeatedly tell they could maintain sane use for years or rest of their lives. Something which is not often said about methamphetamine. So, choose the correct stimulant.

 

[Neuroprotection]

yes, some people repeatedly tell they could maintain sane use for years or rest of their lives. Something which is not often said about methamphetamine. So, choose the correct stimulant.

Amphetamine addiction and the many negative effects it has often result from a cascade of poor choices, especially unnecessary dose escalation/binging and the associated loss of sleep. this then impairs cognition and triggers a cycle of poor decision-making, Usually the choice to take more and more amphetamine. I believe things get really bad when other substances are introduced or when amphetamines are taken bye ROAs other than oral ingestion. that’s one of the major problems with methamphetamine, it is mainly smoked, snorted or injected, with many peoples first experience with the drug being via these roots. with illicit methamphetamine pills, any benefits or even reduced side-effects are completely offset by the fact that these pills often contain massive doses of other substances especially caffeine, as is common in Thailand with the so-called crazy medicine pill. that’s not to say oral amphetamine is Safe by any means, with a significant number of people becoming addicted to things like Adderall. however, it’s probably much easier to manage addiction to pharmaceutical grade amphetamine, so long as it wasn’t snorted or injected.

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

did that work just as well as amphetamine for you?

Nope. For ADHD, amphetamines are superior in addressing the core ADHD symptoms. I liked armodafinil more than modafini, but it didn't really work for ADHD. I had to manually do a lot of mental workload to suppress my ADHD symptoms and most of the time it was just counterproductive, which is why I saved up enough money for a diagnosis from a psychiatrist and got diagnosed and prescribed. I knew amphetamines would work for me prior to the diagnosis because I self-medicated with low-dose crystal methamphetamine for a few months before getting an official diagnosis and being prescribed Vyvanse. Low-dose crystal methamphetamine was literally a blessing for me--I was able to get my life together finally (I have reverence for methamphetamine for this reason because if used properly it's literally poor man's way to get treated for ADHD without having to spend $2000 for an ADHD diagnosis and another ~$120 for a month of supply of Vyvanse--thankfully I have health insurance that covers pills, but I still had to pay $2000 for the diagnosis). I know most people ruin their life because of methamphetamine, but for me, it literally a life saver--I never abused it and always viewed the substance with the respect it deserved. So I think if people can't get good quality amphetamines (street "speed" is pure garbage), using low-dose (always below 20-23mg) crystal methamphetamine (oral route using capsules) is their best bet.

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

But as with coffee or caffeine, I haven't tried mixing it with some anxiolytics (specifically low-dose Propranolol, because L-Theanine doesn't really work for me).

I used to "self-medicate" with cigarettes when I was 13-14 until I was 18 when I had no idea I had ADHD--taking a puff or two gave me "focus" for a few minutes--then I switched to nicotine gums. But nicotine has a very shorter half-life so I eventually had to take something with a higher half-life. Interestingly, I quit cigarettes and nicotine cold turkey and never had the urge to go back.

 

[Neuroprotection]

i’ve noticed something very strange about caffeine which I’ve alluded to before but the past two days have confirmed it. previously I said that I regained the positive mood enhancing effects of caffeine months after my undiagnosed depression resolved. this is true, as is the fact that I remained more sensitive to caffeines negative effects. interestingly, in the past two days, I actually received quite a strong caffeine Rush from my morning black coffee with a stronger positive mood lift which is what I used to get before my depressive episode. this seems to be linked to slightly improved optimism regarding my job though it is still very stressful. Though I can’t complain about the improvements, its somewhat ironic that caffeine benefits me wonderfully when I need it least and stopped working/made things worse when I was depressed and in desperate need of a substance. until I’m financially independent and can start buying replacement substances, I guess I’m stuck with caffeine for now and I’m grateful to get its positive effects back.

 

[Neuroprotection]

In advance of quitting caffeine, i’d love your suggestions on any replacement stimulant substances/supplements. Here are my ideas:
L-Tyrosine to assist with dopamine production.
B vitamins, particularly B1, B6 and B12 all of which can help with neuronal function and catecholamine production.
Inositol for perceived stimulant and anti-depressant effects.

Drug/pharmaceuticals:
Nicotine, which I discussed in detail previously regarding superiority to caffeine for helping me Focus, as well as boosting my mood/well-being.
Selegiline, for a strong motivational boost and it’s undisputedly proven ability to raise dopamine levels.
Traditional psychostimulants(Methylphenidate/amphetamine), for their obvious benefits in treating attention disorders which me and many others strongly suspect I may have. of course, I would seek medical advice on this issue.

 

[CFC]

I guess I’m stuck with caffeine for now and I’m grateful to get its positive effects back.

No one drinks yerba mate in your family then? Maybe you can convince them to, bit better than coffee.

 

[Neuroprotection]

No one drinks yerba mate in your family then? Maybe you can convince them to, bit better than coffee.

Is it a source of caffeine? i’m sure I’ve heard that it is. whilst I’m still using caffeine I will definitely get my family members to buy it for me and we will all give it a try together.

 

[CFC]

Is it a source of caffeine? i’m sure I’ve heard that it is. whilst I’m still using caffeine I will definitely get my family members to buy it for me and we will all give it a try together.

Yep, caffeine, theophylline and theobromine. I found it decent for studying back in my pre-(prescribed)stimulant days.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Yep, caffeine, theophylline and theobromine. I found it decent for studying back in my pre-(prescribed)stimulant days.

So it doesn’t work for you anymore. That’s interesting, but I guess The stimulants do a much better job anyway. just on a sidenote, what stimulants have you been prescribed? also, are you still able to feel the effects of caffeine when not taking other stimulants? The reason I ask is because I came across a study that suggested caffeine produced a more dopaminergic type stimulation in former cocaine users, something that didn’t occur in people never exposed to psychostimulants.

 

[CFC]

So it doesn’t work for you anymore. That’s interesting, but I guess The stimulants do a much better job anyway. just on a sidenote, what stimulants have you been prescribed? also, are you still able to feel the effects of caffeine when not taking other stimulants? The reason I ask is because I came across a study that suggested caffeine produced a more dopaminergic type stimulation in former cocaine users, something that didn’t occur in people never exposed to psychostimulants.

I haven't had any yerba mate in a while - it's an acquired taste, I just remember its effect. I also don't do caffeine habitually - without tolerance, I find it too strong compared to other stimulants and not particularly pleasant (too anxiogenic - extremely so with amphetamines - and too many heart rhythm disturbances).

The only stimulant I've ever been prescribed is d-amp (elvanse/vyvanse). As an ADHD adult in the UK, my options are very limited.

Can you link the study?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I haven't had any yerba mate in a while - it's an acquired taste, I just remember its effect. I also don't do caffeine habitually - without tolerance, I find it too strong compared to other stimulants and not particularly pleasant (too anxiogenic - extremely so with amphetamines - and too many heart rhythm disturbances).

The only stimulant I've ever been prescribed is d-amp (elvanse/vyvanse). As an ADHD adult in the UK, my options are very limited.

Can you link the study?

Thank you for that description. since I’ve never tried traditional psychostimulants this is really interesting. I will try and find the Study and as soon as I do, I will post it for you.

 

[Frog Dreams]

Never liked caffeine much until recently. Now, most days I will have at least one cup of black coffee... but rarely more than two or three.

It's the only stimulant I consume now after stopping amphetamines and nicotine.

Amphetamines have lots of positive qualities and lots of negative qualities.

Coffee is pretty neutral and harmless. There is basically no potential for abuse because high doses are unpleasant. Gives me a short lasting boost when I need it.

Coffee with milk (or sugar) tastes like shit, IMO. Black is best.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Never liked caffeine much until recently. Now, most days I will have at least one cup of black coffee... but rarely more than two or three.

It's the only stimulant I consume now after stopping amphetamines and nicotine.

Amphetamines have lots of positive qualities and lots of negative qualities.

Coffee is pretty neutral and harmless. There is basically no potential for abuse because high doses are unpleasant. Gives me a short lasting boost when I need it.

Coffee with milk (or sugar) tastes like shit, IMO. Black is best.

That’s really interesting. In regards to your nicotine use, was that through smoking? I actually want to use nicotine as a replacement, if I ever do quit caffeine in the future. you’ve probably seen my previous posts about why I find nicotine superior to caffeine but I don’t mind repeating it if you haven’t.
Also, do you know if there is any link between caffeine and depression? by that, I don’t mean caffeine causing depression, but rather that it suddenly stops providing all positive effects and exacerbates negative effects especially anxiety.

Interestingly, I’ve heard caffeine be described as a “primitive stimulant “ which just excites the whole nervous system as opposed to amphetamines, which only activates certain brain regions. to be honest, I think the safety and weak nature of caffeine is the reason it’s such a popular psychoactive drug. if 90% of adults across the world consumed traditional psychostimulants, i’m sure we’d have our fair share of problems due to irresponsible use.