The Big & Dandy Ego Death Thread
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The Hebrew Hammer
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Why is it called a 'loss' when its more like gaining something?
because it is a loss of defined boundaries. you are losing your sense of self. That doesnt mean that you arent gaining THE UNIVERSE though!
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That's pretty much all my point Psychod. I get the impression that when people suggest they've experienced ego-loss they feel they're experiencing some profound truth beyond the usual psychedelic visions and feelings. That they've discovered some unique feature of the brain that they feel can be reinforced with quotes from ancient religions and Tim Leary's ramblings from the 60's when he was trying to make psychedelics sound respectable by linking them to standard religions. Instead of just tripping balls and having a wonderful time you were doing something "serious" like "losing your ego" and doing the same thing that they do in "respectable" religions. God bless Tim but you have to understand the era he was in when he was coming up with these theories. The buddhists and Hindus never accepted his ideas anyway - you read that book Buddhism and psychdelics (Zig zag zen) and all the buddhists are saying "Oh you can't compare what we experience to what a drug abuser experiences, they're worthless compared to us".
What's your take on ego-loss as compared to the other feelings and experiences you have on psychedelics? Do you think it has more depth and meaning than any other feeling or thought you have on psychedelics?
It is curious that cutting-edge western cognitive science is allied in this view so strongly with the oriental concept of "enlightenment" (and arguably with much other mysticism). Indeed, the analogies are often pointed out directly in the literature.
True, there's similarities in the literature if you're a drug user and you're looking for them but a lot of eastern religious people would disagree strongly If you tried to tell the average buddhist "I experienced what you experience while I was tripping my tits off". You try having this argument with a buddhist and he'd say that the very act of taking a drug puts you in a completely delusional state to begin with.
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Shambles
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I was under the impression that experimental evidence from scannning the brains of religious types (Buddhists at the deepest stages of meditation, Catholics in deep prayer and so on) and the effects psyches have on brain chemistry/function showed striking similarities. In both religious and psychedelic rapture there is a marked reduction in activity on the area of the brain known to deal primarily with issues of identity and "self". My memory is hardly perfect but sure I'm not totally imagining that. Pretty sure a psychedelic ego-loss experience has never been captured in scans but the evidence from the basic effects psyches (and religion) have on the brain suggest there is likely to be a strong correlation to me.
Shambles
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Indeed. Was going to mention that too but couldn't remember the details very well. There's also "The God Helmet" which 80% of subjects report sensing a presence they ascribe to "God" and/or other supernatural beings - including "Elves". I suspect the ego-death experience could be produced pretty much on demand with the right type of stimulation to the right areas. Tis a fascinating subject and I don't think science is all that far from working it out and demonstrating its reality and basis in biological fact.
for god's sake ismene I've been pretty patient but I can't fathom why you're still disputing this;
no one is making a claim about the validity of "ego loss" experiences as they pertain to reality/the universe in itself. we are only talking about the experience as we experience it.
it is only "meaningful" in so much as it is feels extremely meaningful at the moment it occurs. "divine truths" and all variations aren't truly obtained from experiences like ego loss (at least, in my opinion), but the incredible, novel, and awe-inspiring feeling of being totally disoriented with your constructed identity - a radical new perspective - is such a paradigm shift that merely experiencing it is "meaningful."
I mean, can you REALLY not understand that? according to the kind of view you're arguing, no one should use psychedelics because no one can really learn anything from them. people shouldn't enjoy listening to music on psychedelics because the enhanced perception/distortion of sound is "delusional." but this is clearly not true - no one should abase these sort of experiences simply on the ground that they don't correlate to reality. i think that is the point of psychedelia - to view reality through a new lens - not necessarily an accurate one, but a novel, incredible, and enjoyable one.
no one is making a claim about the validity of "ego loss" experiences as they pertain to reality/the universe in itself. we are only talking about the experience as we experience it.
it is only "meaningful" in so much as it is feels extremely meaningful at the moment it occurs. "divine truths" and all variations aren't truly obtained from experiences like ego loss (at least, in my opinion), but the incredible, novel, and awe-inspiring feeling of being totally disoriented with your constructed identity - a radical new perspective - is such a paradigm shift that merely experiencing it is "meaningful."
I mean, can you REALLY not understand that? according to the kind of view you're arguing, no one should use psychedelics because no one can really learn anything from them. people shouldn't enjoy listening to music on psychedelics because the enhanced perception/distortion of sound is "delusional." but this is clearly not true - no one should abase these sort of experiences simply on the ground that they don't correlate to reality. i think that is the point of psychedelia - to view reality through a new lens - not necessarily an accurate one, but a novel, incredible, and enjoyable one.
Shambles
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^ I disagree. Visuals are enjoyable simply cos they are gorgeous. That alone can be interpreted as a valuable, spiritual experience in its own right for me. The mental and emotional effects may be more "important" but nobody can deny the simple lushness and value of pretty things, in my opinion.
That's one of the most intriguing questions to me. Although psyches seem to strongly affect the part of the brain that seems to have evolved for dealing with "spiritual matters" (presumably evolved as a survival mechanism - it's comforting to feel an all-encompassing and loving "presence" in times of stress) the ego-death thing is a whole other level. It does seem to be way harder to replicate using drugs, religion or science. I think that more study into the whole subject will unravel it fairly soon and it will become possible to recreate it (or a very similar) state artificially. I also believe it will never be possible to recreate the state on demand with drugs or religion - some form of electronic/magnetic/other stimulation similar to the techniques currently employed in studies like the "God Helmet" thing seems most likely to work reliably and on demand to me.
That's one of the most intriguing questions to me. Although psyches seem to strongly affect the part of the brain that seems to have evolved for dealing with "spiritual matters" (presumably evolved as a survival mechanism - it's comforting to feel an all-encompassing and loving "presence" in times of stress) the ego-death thing is a whole other level. It does seem to be way harder to replicate using drugs, religion or science. I think that more study into the whole subject will unravel it fairly soon and it will become possible to recreate it (or a very similar) state artificially. I also believe it will never be possible to recreate the state on demand with drugs or religion - some form of electronic/magnetic/other stimulation similar to the techniques currently employed in studies like the "God Helmet" thing seems most likely to work reliably and on demand to me.
Steady on.
it is only "meaningful" in so much as it is feels extremely meaningful at the moment it occurs
So you don't put any more weight in"ego-loss" than you do to any other psychedelic feeling?
according to the kind of view you're arguing, no one should use psychedelics because no one can really learn anything from them. people shouldn't enjoy listening to music on psychedelics because the enhanced perception/distortion of sound is "delusional."
I'm perfectly happy to believe "ego-loss" is something you experience while on drugs. But there's an undercurrent that it's something "more" than the average psychedelic experience. If you're saying that there's nothing more to it than anything else you experience while tripping your tits off then fair enough. I thought people were claiming it was something more real than that - that it was something that the great masters have experienced for thousands of years.
Incidentally I'm not using the word delusional in any pejoritive sense. Something can still be of great value even if you can't relate it to what some eastern religious bloke said a thousand years ago.
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It'll be interesting to see if that ever happens Shammy. If you could recreate it on demand then that would suggest the ego and "ego-loss" are something to do with how the brain interprets reality. But if it's a delusion then you'll never be able to recreate it reliably - it's only ever going to happen in certain people under certain conditions.
I'm not sure I follow your logic there... delusion can be quite reliably replicated in a number of ways.
I mean, delusion is dictated by brain chemistry the same as any other state of mind. Cross-wire certain synapses and boom - you've created a replicable delusion. Every time you take datura or benadryl in large doses, you're creating delusion in a pretty consistent way...
I mean, delusion is dictated by brain chemistry the same as any other state of mind. Cross-wire certain synapses and boom - you've created a replicable delusion. Every time you take datura or benadryl in large doses, you're creating delusion in a pretty consistent way...
the outsider
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We are all one
Ego loss is when you realise that fact.
You clearly have no understanding of the psychedelic experience.
Ego loss is when you realise that fact.
You clearly have no understanding of the psychedelic experience.
ColtDan
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Jesusgreen
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You ever hear people referring to how psychedelics "remove the filters of the mind" - they don't really do that in a scientific sense, they bind to 5ht2a receptors and produce an altered perception.
Ego loss however, whether achieved via psychedelics, dissociatives, meditation, or whatever - does do exactly that.
Imagine you are a farmer, you have a plot of land, next to it, Bob has a plot of land, and on the other side, Jack also has a plot of land. This is like the ego, your land is different from Bob's land which is different from Jack's land. When you lose your ego, it's just land, and they're just people, there's no Bob, or Jack, or you, there are just three humans, and some land.
First as you start to break away from your ego you experience duality, black and white, yin and yang, good and evil, dark and light, everything has an equal opposite, all in balance. Then as you delve further you will experience the source, the one truth that is beyond our regular perception that all who experience it can agree on - we are all one, there is no you, no me, no him, no her, no that, no this, no there, no here - just one, the separation is an illusion produced by the ego. Now we can all argue what this means for us - many will agree that if we are all one, we are "God", and God is not some guy sitting in the clouds, but all of everything, and that one - us, you, me, everything, created the ego and the world as an experience for us to go through, the ego allowing us to experience it as if it was real and not just a game conjured up by us, and that after death we either indulge in another same or different experience, or return to the source.
The ego frees us from problems or worries, as there is no us in the first place, just one, and we are filled with the purest of love and happiness. The best part of all is speaking to someone else who has also experienced ego loss, both of you realise you are one and the same, and you can both be much more compassionate, accepting, and truthful people because of this.
If you're religious, the best way to look at ego loss is as the return to the Garden of Eden. I believe the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for this. Eve takes the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, eats it, and is thrown out of the Garden of Eden - I see this as the creation of the ego, Adam and Eve have been given ego and now cannot see or experience the Garden of Eden any more. But when one dissolves the ego, the beautiful garden can be experienced again.
Ego loss however, whether achieved via psychedelics, dissociatives, meditation, or whatever - does do exactly that.
Imagine you are a farmer, you have a plot of land, next to it, Bob has a plot of land, and on the other side, Jack also has a plot of land. This is like the ego, your land is different from Bob's land which is different from Jack's land. When you lose your ego, it's just land, and they're just people, there's no Bob, or Jack, or you, there are just three humans, and some land.
First as you start to break away from your ego you experience duality, black and white, yin and yang, good and evil, dark and light, everything has an equal opposite, all in balance. Then as you delve further you will experience the source, the one truth that is beyond our regular perception that all who experience it can agree on - we are all one, there is no you, no me, no him, no her, no that, no this, no there, no here - just one, the separation is an illusion produced by the ego. Now we can all argue what this means for us - many will agree that if we are all one, we are "God", and God is not some guy sitting in the clouds, but all of everything, and that one - us, you, me, everything, created the ego and the world as an experience for us to go through, the ego allowing us to experience it as if it was real and not just a game conjured up by us, and that after death we either indulge in another same or different experience, or return to the source.
The ego frees us from problems or worries, as there is no us in the first place, just one, and we are filled with the purest of love and happiness. The best part of all is speaking to someone else who has also experienced ego loss, both of you realise you are one and the same, and you can both be much more compassionate, accepting, and truthful people because of this.
If you're religious, the best way to look at ego loss is as the return to the Garden of Eden. I believe the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for this. Eve takes the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, eats it, and is thrown out of the Garden of Eden - I see this as the creation of the ego, Adam and Eve have been given ego and now cannot see or experience the Garden of Eden any more. But when one dissolves the ego, the beautiful garden can be experienced again.
vegan
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i just flew quickly through the thread and didn't notice the word ketamine.
if some posters have any doubts about the reality of ego loss, i would recommand of good dose of said drug
even though it's not my favourite, it's definitely the best i know at providing ego loss
imagine the brain as a mother board and hard drive
delete every program or data other than the bios
close all possible iexternal nput
and put the power on
that's your brain on ego loss
a consciousness with nothing else than the fact of being conscious
if some posters have any doubts about the reality of ego loss, i would recommand of good dose of said drug
even though it's not my favourite, it's definitely the best i know at providing ego loss
imagine the brain as a mother board and hard drive
delete every program or data other than the bios
close all possible iexternal nput
and put the power on
that's your brain on ego loss
a consciousness with nothing else than the fact of being conscious