The Big & Dandy Ego Death Thread

[Ismene]

I'm not so sure villian.

EDIT: I'm sure you've experienced it. It's just the explanation for it I question. I'm sure all the christians who claim they've heard the voice of Jesus heard a voice too. But that doesn't mean the explanation is really Jesus.

 

[villian]

I understand your quest for proof, but sadly I cannot provide it. The proof was given to me in an experience. If it is any consolation, I most likely would not have believed my claims had I not experienced them..

Happy holidays my friend

 

[DwayneHoover]

So, Ismene, you're saying you suspect that everyone claiming to have experienced something called by many professional psychologists for many years "ego loss" were just pretending or imagining that they were experienced it? You are saying this state of mind does not really exist but is only somehow "imaginary"? That reminds me of someone asserting: "This sentence is false." for some reason.

What is your basis and background for denying a mind-state that has been widely acknowledged to actually exist for many decades by many professionals and scholars as well as laypeople who have actually had the experience?

Did you have an apparent ego-loss event that you were able to dissect and realized it was just your same old ego-mind PRETENDING it was in an ego-less state, and that it what you are trying to report here? Honestly I don't get it.

Your arguments seem odd not a bit arrogant. People proclaim "I experienced a certain subjective state of mind X, which I describe thusly..." And along come you to say "No you didn't! Now *I* am going to tell *YOU* what subjective experience YOU really had inside YOUR mind". At least I think thats what you are doing. Perhaps I misunderstand. If not, wow, that's really nuts, man. No way you can say that and expect to be taken seriously. Peoples' subjective internal mental experiences ARE WHAT THEY ARE, period! Silly person (I think)!

 

[Shambles]

No, procedural memory does not have to be lost - obviously you can still move your body, even if you're unaware of it - but that's irrelevant.

I actually couldn't move my body on either occasion. Or maybe I could but just didn't. Was laying down the first time so not moving is quite reasonable. Second time I was sat at my computer - it's not exactly a comfy chair and very easy to fall off (GBL I'm looking at you ) so I suppose I must've been moving enough to keep my balance. I certainly wouldn't have been able to get up and walk about or interact with stuff though.

Issy: Hahahahaha! Yes, if you come in and asked me for me wallet I'd have fucked you off as a cheeky young scamp. If you'd come in, picked it up, waved it in my face and walked out I wouldn't have noticed you do it though.

 

[Survived Abortion]

I agree with Dwayne.

If you look on Erowid's /Plants and Drugs/Full Substance List page for experiences by substance, it has a quote at the top which says: "You cannot deny the experiences of others".

I will say this though: this thread cuts pretty close to the recent discussion on Shulgin's ++++ experiences. Some of the trouble with the arguements invovle definition of terms. However, we are talking about a felt experience, and theretofore everyone's experience has to be taken as valid, or else there is really no basis for discussion.

I might say that the psychedelic experience cannot be quantified in terms of increments such as +1, +2, +3, +4 (even though the scale was used primarily for Shulgin's inital bioassays). The +4 experience could be said to be equivalent to that described by some people as ego-loss, since by it's very definition as transcendental we cannot know the state of the subject's ego during the time of the experience. There is also no reason to believe that the subject loses awareness during the experience and has to piece it back together afterwards. The autonomic functions seem, to an observer, to be functioning as normal, as do other brain functions, meaning that there is still a 'you' somewhere inside the organism keeping you alive. Complete ego-death would literally mean death.

But I will also add that, given a consensus agreement on the 'idea' of ego as a sense of compartmentalized self-ness, with boundaries between 'Me', 'I', 'You, and 'Things', it should be obvious that a state of ego-loss is simply a "loss" of those boundaries; a state of empathogenic and divine one-ness with all that is, based upon the concept of dependent-arising, or all phenomena entangled in causality, with phenomena which we call 'things' being divine emanations.

As it pertains to memory, we have no way of knowing when or how our daily experiences are remembered - simply that we receive them with a mechanism called the body, quantize the emanations in to transmutable thought phenomena, and then manifest (or broadcast/emanate our own interpretations).

Maybe.

 

[Ismene]

So, Ismene, you're saying you suspect that everyone claiming to have experienced something called by many professional psychologists for many years "ego loss" were just pretending or imagining that they were experienced it?

Hold your horses Dwayne. Where did this bit about "Professional psychologists" believing in ego loss come from? Do you have any evidence to support this? The whole idea of the ego has been discredited for decades. Can you link us to a single case study to support your claims? I've been reading about ego-loss for years and 99% of the cases I've come across have been drug-related. The rest have been from blokes meditating and other religious types. And we’ve established in this thread that everyones idea of “ego-loss” can be different.


People proclaim "I experienced a certain subjective state of mind X, which I describe thusly..." And along come you to say "No you didn't! Now *I* am going to tell *YOU* what subjective experience YOU really had inside YOUR mind".

I see. So if someone claims they can hear the voice of Jesus in their heads then you're perfectly happy believing that they heard the voice of Jesus? As far as you're concerned it's a stone cold fact and no-one can possibly dispute the reality of Jesus? I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one Dwayne.

 

[Ismene]

But I will also add that, given a consensus agreement on the 'idea' of ego as a sense of compartmentalized self-ness, with boundaries between 'Me', 'I', 'You, and 'Things', it should be obvious that a state of ego-loss is simply a "loss" of those boundaries; a state of empathogenic and divine one-ness with all that is, based upon the concept of dependent-arising, or all phenomena entangled in causality, with phenomena which we call 'things' being divine emanations.

I admit it sounds good in theory. The question is whether the human brain actually works in such a simplistic way conforming to religious ideas that were suggested hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago.

Brain science suggests it doesn't.

Incidentally I'm not saying you can't feel "at one with the universe" when you're high on drugs. I feel it often, well I feel my interpretation of being at one with the universe - we all probably have our own different interpretation of such a vague sounding idea. The point is whether it's got anything to do with theories like "ego-loss".

EDIT: "You cannot deny the experiences of others".

You can interpret this in a thousand different ways can't you. If we take it literally then we're going to believe everyone who claims they've seen ghosts, Allah, UFO's etc.

 

[Shambles]

It really is a totally diffferent kettle o' fish to the standard "We are all one! " high as fuck hippydom, Issy. It's pretty clear you've yet to experience this state - I really hope you do someday. It is radically different from anything else you will ever experience I can assure you

 

[Ismene]

If I ever do experience it I'll come back and we'll drink on my luck :D

 

[IamMe90]

Hold your horses Dwayne. Where did this bit about "Professional psychologists" believing in ego loss come from? Do you have any evidence to support this? The whole idea of the ego has been discredited for decades. Can you link us to a single case study to support your claims? I've been reading about ego-loss for years and 99% of the cases I've come across have been drug-related. The rest have been from blokes meditating and other religious types. And we’ve established in this thread that everyones idea of “ego-loss” can be different.

First of all, stop confusing the freudian conception of ego with the "ego" of "ego loss." You have been told about 100 times that the two are not the same and the latter has not been "discredited for decades" and has not even been within the purview of neuroscience.

People proclaim "I experienced a certain subjective state of mind X, which I describe thusly..." And along come you to say "No you didn't! Now *I* am going to tell *YOU* what subjective experience YOU really had inside YOUR mind".

I see. So if someone claims they can hear the voice of Jesus in their heads then you're perfectly happy believing that they heard the voice of Jesus? As far as you're concerned it's a stone cold fact and no-one can possibly dispute the reality of Jesus? I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one Dwayne.

No. "Hearing the voice of Jesus" makes a claim about the external world. In this case, you are asserting that 1) Jesus exists and 2) that the voice you are hearing is indeed the voice of Jesus. This cannot be simply asserted through experience alone because experience is subjective and the claims being made refer to external, objective fact.

In the case of ego loss, you are experiencing something which is entirely subjective - in a negative sense - a loss of subjectivity. The entire experience of ego loss is phenomenological. It isn't an objective assertion about the way the mind works; it's a different "way" of experiencing things.

I understand what you're saying, which is that the brain can't really dissolve its own sense of self and that any experience of ego loss is delusion. But you have to understand that, because the experience of ego loss is entirely phenomenological and says nothing about the external world - rather, it frames the way we view the external world - "delusion" is actually equivalent to "experience." Or rather, delusion is meaningless in this context because you can't delude yourself in respect to the way you perceive the world around you - it may not correlate to the external world (and it most certainly does not), but you are still absolutely experiencing the world in an egoless manner, and only your experience itself can ever confirm or refute this.

Edit: to further explicate this point, let's apply it to the Jesus voice example: what you cannot assert is that you are hearing the voice of Jesus. What you can assert is that you are hearing what you are hearing. In the same way, you can assert that you are experiencing what you are experiencing - and ego loss is simply a way of experiencing things. This cannot be refuted because it does not make objective claims.

 

[knock]

Well said IamMe90. IamKnockando73 couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[DwayneHoover]

I see. So if someone claims they can hear the voice of Jesus in their heads then you're perfectly happy believing that they heard the voice of Jesus? As far as you're concerned it's a stone cold fact and no-one can possibly dispute the reality of Jesus? I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one Dwayne.

OK you must be deliberately misunderstanding.

First stop talking about hearing the voice of Jesus and believing Jesus really exists, that has NOTHING to do with the reality of people's experiences of ego-loss.

Second, in answer to your question - NO!

I never said anything close to that numbnuts! Quit putting words into peoples' mouths. You are coming close to being an obstinate troll.

If someone says "I heard Jesus" I would believe them to the extent that INSIDE OF THEIR MINDS THEY ***BELIEVED*** THAT THEY WERE HEARING JESUS.

*NOT* saying I would take that as proof Jesus actually exists and was really talking to them. But experiencing ego-loss and an oceanic state of mind in which one forgets who they are and feels unified with all of existence has NOTHING TO DO WITH BELIEVING YOU ARE HEARING THE VOICE OF A MYTHICAL DEITY!! Quit conflating the two, no one else is claiming anything like that.

And while we are at it.... Jesus H Christ, try to stop being so dense

 

[Ismene]

First of all, stop confusing the freudian conception of ego with the "ego" of "ego loss." You have been told about 100 times that the two are not the same and the latter has not been "discredited for decades" and has not even been within the purview of neuroscience.

If you're using the word Ego then we have to accept it has a meaning. You can't just use a word and then make up your own meaning for it. From this thread you seem to want the ego to mean "a sense of self". Right? I know there's a thousand different meanings for "ego-loss" but is there some vague understanding you can provide that we can all agree on?

No. "Hearing the voice of Jesus" makes a claim about the external world.

And by claiming "ego-loss" you are making a claim about the external world as well. You're claiming that the human brain understands reality in terms of a "sense of self" and then when you take a drug the brain drops this idea and works in a way that thinks it's "at one with the universe".

I'm saying there's no reason to think the brain works in this simplistic quasi-religious way. It's an idea someone came up with before science could study the brain. It sounds good but it has no basis in reality.

you can assert that you are experiencing what you are experiencing - and ego loss is simply a way of experiencing things.

Sure, I've no doubt that you're experiencing what you're experiencing. It's the explanation for it I'm questioning. If it's all subjective then why are you so insistent on the explanation? Why must it be ego-loss rather than a simple delusion?

 

[Ismene]

I never said anything close to that numbnuts!

Fair enough Dwayne, no need to get overheated. It sure sounds like experiencing ego-loss and an oceanic state of cosmic unity has really done you the world of good. Someone gives you their opinion on a drug board and you call them names like a nasty 14 year old.

If only we could all experience ego-loss and be more like you eh? What a wonderful peaceful, loving place the world would be

 

[DwayneHoover]

"numbnuts" was a deliberately goofy attempt to feign mock anger, silly Ismene... I hardly call that nasty... believe me I can get nasty... I thought the grin at the end of the post was sufficient. Too bad you cant take a little ribbing. Jeez.

I still dont understand your incessant arguing. So "Ego Loss" is a catchphrase... a name for a subjective state in which people forget that they are a specific individual human, and have the impression that they are a disembodied awareness unified with the entire universe. So thats the word used as a shorthand description for that state. I dont see why you just dont accept it. So far as it being "delusion" oh come ON man. Look, if I had an experience in which I felt that way, THEN I FELT THAT WAY! As someone above said, there is absolutely no meaning in arguing that this state did not really happen or is delusion, because by definition it is only a internal subjective internal experience... there is no "real" or "not real"... what is being discussed is NOT anything that claims to be about the real world, just about an IMPRESSION acknowledged to be totally subjective... its just an internal mental experience, a feeling, and IT IS WHAT IT IS! No one is claiming they were "REALLY" united with the entire universe. But that they had an INNER EXPERIENCE that they were. So what, it does not matter... it is the CONTENT OF THE EXPERIENCE and HOW IT CHANGES US that is important.

I honestly do not understand your issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

Its an established term that has been around a long time used to describe this state. It was not invented last week in a Bluelight discussion thread or whatever. You seem to be obsessing on what it got named, but sorry that is just what that internal state has gotten to be called. Get in your time machine and go back and argue NOT TO CALL IT THAT 30 years ago when maybe you could have affected the name that has been adopted. But thats what it is now called. Deal with it.

 

[shade404]

Ego-loss is remembering everything you knew before you were born, and forgetting all the delusional bullshit that you have filled your brain with in the mean time. There is no observer ('I') watching the body experience; there is only that naked experience itself, vibrating around everything, consuming everything. Being everything, everywhere, all at once.

I have hit this state on LSD twice (500ug, 1.2mg), and come very close once on 7 grams of beautiful mushrooms.

A really, really unique book on this subject is The Haunted Universe[/i] by Stephen Norquist. It's basically an expansion of an essay he wrote, which can still be read online:

Imagine as clearly as you can that you enter a large house that you have never been in before. You feel strange and kind of scared, there is furniture and drapes but no people. You wander around feeling the creepiness of being alone in this big house. You go from room to room not knowing what you will find. You start to get nervous and a little fearful being alone in this big house. You wonder how long it has been empty like this. In time the sense of the bigness and emptiness of the house starts to weigh heavily on your nerves. Finally, when you can not stand it any longer a shocking realization occurs to you, you're not there either! Only the experience, "house" exists.

This is how nonduality feels and is the real truth of existence. Remember the question, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Now you know the answer.

He's a bit full of himself, but his whole dogma is that he can talk you into experiencing ego-loss which is a pretty novel idea to me. Certainly, this material is a good starting point for someone who is curious, but not quite curious enough to bust out a 120mg line of DPT and go to town.


edit: n2o certainly produces ego-loss experiences of a certain type, at least in some people with prior experience with hallucinogens, but it doesn't hold a candle to a fullblown LSD peak in all its majesty, for me.

 

[Psychodelirium]

Sure, I've no doubt that you're experiencing what you're experiencing. It's the explanation for it I'm questioning. If it's all subjective then why are you so insistent on the explanation? Why must it be ego-loss rather than a simple delusion?

What would it mean, exactly, for ego-loss to be a delusion?

If your point is that the idea of some such thing as the "ego" (that can be lost or retained) is deluded because it makes no sense in terms of structure and function in the brain, then of course you are right. It would appear that the sense of a unified and distinct self is an illusion subserved by many modular, distributed, and sometimes antagonistic computational processes.

But this would seem to support the opposite view, which is that since "ego loss" is a state where the idea of the "ego" no longer makes sense, it is a state in which you are no longer deluded. You are in fact most deluded when you believe in the "ego" as we all do when we are sober. It is curious that cutting-edge western cognitive science is allied in this view so strongly with the oriental concept of "enlightenment" (and arguably with much other mysticism). Indeed, the analogies are often pointed out directly in the literature.

 

[Shambles]

On the subject of "Self", a brilliant documentary on the brain science of self - The Secret You. Includes experiments with high tech scanners and anaesthesia (including ketamine). Well worth a watch

 

[strangedays_indeed]

that was a good read.

i love to read about how other humans try to describe this totally indescribable state. in my experience it is FOR SURE something you will know if you are experiencing it. (due to the intensity of the experience).

i've achieved this state, though only a handful of times, and it has been the most utterly beautiful and terrifying examination of every single fiber of my human existence on earth. so intense, especially when not mentally prepared, yet so pure and amazing. words do no justice.

anyways i love a real, in depth conversation, with friends who have also experienced this sensation, and just the thoughts of how strong it was for me let me re-live and remember the experience.

yet words do very little justice to describe...

 

[Tromps]

Why is it called a 'loss' when its more like gaining something?