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annoying sayings from non-drug users

because addiction isn't some inherent property they 'contain' like say an orange contains vitamin C.
I have to disagree on that one (but agree on the rest of what you have said). I do think that a lot of the potential of addiction is external. What you psychologically lack, and what substance fills that lack, causes you to gravitate towards that substance, but how hard that substance sticks to you (or you to it, depending on how you view it) is determined by a very large portion by the neuropharmacological nature of said drug. Opioids for instance rewire your brain in a way that can make you crave the substance even if you don't like it anymore. Many opioid addicts who don't even get anything out of their smack anymore, still get intense cravings, not because of some obscure, freudian need that has remained unfulfilled (even though that certainly CAN be the reason), but simply by easily explainable neurochemical processes that go on in the brain of everybody who has been hooked on this substance class for a long enough time, due to long-term neuroplastic changes. Even if you have a person who doesn't crave any drugs at all, a total normie, and force heroin on him for a long enough time (and he never even develops a taste for it) and then stop exogenously providing him with the opioid, his brain will react with intense cravings. So I do think that a lot of the psychological component of addiction is in fact caused by the inherent nature of the psychoactive substance, and the way it interacts with our brains. A good explanation on why opioid addiction is primarily a neurobiological issue instead of a psychological one, can be found in Enno Freye's "Opioide in der Medizin". There is also an english translation of the book, but only up to the sixth edition.
 
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I have to disagree on that one (but agree on the rest of what you have said). I do think that a lot of the potential of addiction is external. What you psychologically lack, and what substance fills that lack, causes you to gravitate towards that substance, but how hard that substance sticks to you (or you to it, depending on how you view it) is determined by a very large portion by the neuropharmacological nature of said drug. Opioids for instance rewire your brain in a way that can make you crave the substance even if you don't like it anymore. Many opioid addicts who don't even get anything out of their smack anymore, still get intense cravings, not because of some obscure, freudian need that has remained unfulfilled (even though that certainly CAN be the reason), but simply by easily explainable neurochemical processes that go on in the brain of everybody who has been hooked on this substance class for a long enough time, due to long-term neuroplastic changes. Even if you have a person who doesn't crave any drugs at all, a total normie, and force heroin on him for a long enough time (and he never even develops a taste for it) and then stop exogenously providing him with the opioid, his brain will react with intense cravings. So I do think that a lot of the psychological component of addiction is in fact caused by the inherent nature of the psychoactive substance, and the way it interacts with our brains. A good explanation on why opioid addiction is primarily a neurobiological issue instead of a psychological one, can be found in Enno Freye's "Opioide in der Medizin". There is also an english translation of the book, but only up to the sixth edition.
The process you describe is called conditioning. It's also well-known that 'neurons that fire together, wire together'. You end up in a self-perpetuating loop where doing the drug forms neural pathways specifically to do with doing the drug, which then in return facilitates the repeat of the drug-taking, which re-enforces those neural connections etc.

None of this is new and none of this is specific to one particular class of drug.
'opiates change your brain'. And people talk about it like that's some inescapable absolute.
EVERYTHING you do on a regular basis CHANGES YOUR BRAIN, ffs.
'Brain changes' be damned. It's meaningless.
The brain is neuroplastic and even drug-induced brain changes can be reversed or overwritten by learning new behaviour patterns.

Sure by virtue of their own individual brain chemistry some people have greater affinities for some drugs than others, and are therefore more likely to develop an unhealthy relationship to those drugs. I'm a classic case in point. But that STILL doesn't locate some property of 'addiction' PHYSICALLY in the drug.

What I'm saying here is ask any chemist and tell him to show you the particular molecular component in which 'addictiveness' is encoded, and he won't be able to do it because it does not exist.

That narrative also can't sensibly account for how some people use heroin, meth or coke on a recreational basis without ever developing an addiction, while others are hopelessly addicted to weed.

... As for opiates allegedly having this special 'brain changing' inherent capacity as compared to other drugs (and I bought this assertion for a LONG time), explain to me the statistic that says only a paltry 2% of pain patients on high continuous doses of morphine are found to be 'addicted' (rather than just physically dependent), while a whopping proportion of 76% of street heroin users are.

The drug in question is essentially pretty much the same substance. And heck I've had occasional better highs on medical-grade morphine than cut-to-fuck street heroin (an experience I won't be surprised if you corroborated); pretty sure the pharma M is mostly more potent. Yet you still get this vast discrepancy in addiction rates.

Well, one portion of users is strictly looking to the drug as a medical treatment to alleviate a medical issue. The other cohort is blatantly valuing the drug in a whole different way and seeking to get something else from it.
It clearly depends far more on the motivation of the user, how he regards his drug and what he expects it to do for him, than the pharmacological properties of the drug.

PS for clarity, opiates absolutely do mess with dopamine levels and production if used to excess or too regularly, but again this is a reversible process.
 
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'opiates change your brain'. And people talk about it like that's some inescapable absolute.
EVERYTHING you do on a regular basis CHANGES YOUR BRAIN, ffs.
I never said that opioids exclusively change your brain, but can we agree that the changes caused by opioid use are of a much more deeply entrenched and perennial nature than chocolate ice cream use? Can we?

What I'm saying here is ask any chemist and tell him to show you the particular molecular component in which addictiveness is encoded, and he won't be able to do it because it does not exist.
The reason a chemist can't do that is because the field of science we call "chemistry" does neither have the means nor the ability to give such an explanation as it only deals with chemical properties and how their interactions with one another change such properties. You'd have to ask a neuropharmacologist and those guys CAN absolutely explain why opioids for instance (we can also take benzos, alcohol or cocaine as examples) cause addiction by explaining how the pharmacology of this substance class interacts with the brain and how this interaction leads to specific changes and how these changes are responsible for processes that finally form the phenomenon that we call "addiction". Chemistry is absolutely not equipped to deal with such questions. A chemist can concoct you a new drug, but why that drug is doing what its doing can only be explained by a (neuro)pharmacologist.
A wildlife biologist can tell you how a serpent is using its body to move forward, but explaining that the interaction between the ground's resistance against the body and simultaneous force applied by the body to overcome that resistance is what creates that forward motion, is best left to physicists because they are equipped to deal with such questions. I hope you understand now what I'm trying to say.
 
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My family doctor sent me second time to the hospitals addiction unit as urgent, and again the psychologist is telling me they are not gonna help me because I'm missing a document for what I would need to move etc.

She tells me "if you want to stop drugs, maybe it requires you to normalize other aspects in your life as well and make this paper" and she smiles like she has just told me something really smart
 
My wife always says, "Why do you feel the need to use drugs every day?"

I don't use drugs every day, so it's annoying because it's blatantly untrue.

But, also, she is overweight and spends so much time on her phone.

I'm ecstatically happy and she is miserable.

She should put down the donuts and turn off her phone and get high with me.
 
My wife always says, "Why do you feel the need to use drugs every day?"

I don't use drugs every day, so it's annoying because it's blatantly untrue.
Even if it was true, it's a dumb thing to ask, because someone who uses drugs every day is obviously addicted.
 
My wife always says, "Why do you feel the need to use drugs every day?"

I don't use drugs every day, so it's annoying because it's blatantly untrue.

But, also, she is overweight and spends so much time on her phone.

I'm ecstatically happy and she is miserable.

She should put down the donuts and turn off her phone and get high with me.
Bro same. My partner is always on their phone and asks me why I feel the need to use kratom and cannabis. They say that we should work to feel content without relying on a substance

But you can't deal with every mental illness like that, some are genetic and the malfunction can't be overcome so easily

I'm usually happy and driven and they have problems getting out of bed in the morning
 
I know you experienced drug users have heard from either drug naive or non using peoples phreases which either make you laugh or think "what the fuck is this person thinking." Well, this thread is for that. Be it medical professionals, police, or the just plain naive, post your annoying/funny sayings from non-using peoples here



"doing heroin/coke/crack ONE TIME will have you addicted for life"

"two benadryl knock me out, give them a try"
I hate hearing people who used to use or never used talk about “being proud of being clean and sober”
Self righteous and disgusting
 
" Oh I hate needles, I could never shoot up, ever!"
And that's when I'd reply, " Never say never." It seems as though the people who look down on addiction do eventually end up experiencing it at some point in their life. It's called life lessons and that's what we're all doing, right?? Experiencing life??
 
" Oh I hate needles, I could never shoot up, ever!"
And that's when I'd reply, " Never say never."...
Yeah, I'm embarrassed to admit it but that was me at one time: I'll try anything but I'll never use a needle.
Then at age 27 I did try it and for awhile I was obsessed with that means of delivery. Like to the point where I cared more about the ROA than I did which drug I was injecting. It was absurd.
These days I don't shoot up anymore and I don't miss it nor do I look down on it-- although I do strongly discourage IV cocaine use because it can quickly turn one's arms into dart boards.
 
I never said that opioids exclusively change your brain, but can we agree that the changes caused by opioid use are of a much more deeply entrenched and perennial nature than chocolate ice cream use? Can we?
I never compared it to a predeliction for ice-cream or something equally trivial, so don't go twisting my words in my mouth.
I also clearly never said YOU personally made this claim about opiates, but plenty of others routinely do. I was speaking in general terms and thought I had made this obvious.
The reason a chemist can't do that is because the field of science we call "chemistry" does neither have the means nor the ability to give such an explanation as it only deals with chemical properties and how their interactions with one another change such properties. You'd have to ask a neuropharmacologist and those guys CAN absolutely explain why opioids for instance (we can also take benzos, alcohol or cocaine as examples) cause addiction by explaining how the pharmacology of this substance class interacts with the brain and how this interaction leads to specific changes and how these changes are responsible for processes that finally form the phenomenon that we call "addiction".
I'm very well aware of this, because neuroscience is a field that I've studied (I mean at degree level, not 'read some articles on the internet'. sadly you have to specify that these days.) And I can confidently tell you that drug interaction and drug-related changes in brain chemistry notwithstanding, there still IS NO neurophysiological process that can literally PHYSICALLY COMPEL you to use.

Just for consideration, observe that addicts who make a change in their habits generally do so when pressed by circumstance. They're usually at a very low point in their lives. They decide the cost of the continued drug-taking is no longer worth it to them. And they therefore make that decision (YES, a 'decision', a cognitive process) at a point where their brain is as 'changed by drugs' as it's possible to be.

Which, if those changes supposedly force you to use, logically could not be done. Some medication would have to be given or neurosurgery would have to be performed prior, in order to enable those individuals to quit their addictions, IF the much-quoted brain changes really were causally instrumental, as is so often suggested.



Chemistry is absolutely not equipped to deal with such questions.
A chemist can bloody tell you whether there is or is not a specific chemical component in a drug that 'codes' for addictive attachment. And there isn't.
I hope you understand now what I'm trying to say.
I do, and it appears to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what I'M trying to get across.
 
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Take a chill pill and then I might consider to continue the discussion with you. Until then goodbye...
... Sorry?
I was not trivialising the impact of drug addiction in any way, but your comment all but accused me of that.

Suit yourself. # shrug #
 
I hate hearing people who used to use or never used talk about “being proud of being clean and sober”
Self righteous and disgusting
I don't despise such people, because that's the paradigm they've been taught.
They annoy the fuck out of me but I feel pity more than any other sentiment.

I DO on the other hand absolutely hate the IDEA. The whole thing goes back to the puritanical notion that you 'contaminate' your body with drugs, just as you also 'contaminate' it with sex. It's the abstinence-as-spiritual-virtue concept.

'clean & sober' in itself implies that addiction makes you somehow DIRTY, lesser, morally lacking. When all it really means is you're a human being with a problem.

What I find the most bloody depressing is all those 12-step acolytes who, having been told to hate themselves for their perceived 'moral weakness', are then conditioned to find affirmation in pointlessly and mechanically counting 'days of sobriety'.

Like THAT'S your one achievement. You managed to force yourself not to use for one more day ; here's your imaginary brownie point, good boy. And you're just gonna continue counting sober days.... forever? Until the day you die or what?
What happened to the notion of getting past your drug problem and living your sodding LIFE.

Imagine defining your entire existence and self-worth by what you deny yourself.
Oh and if you slip up JUST ONCE, however briefly, however insignificant the occasion, you've now comprehensively invalidated all of your achievements up to this point.

... Fuck it's like whoever invented this 'programme' actively WANTED participants to fail.
 
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I don't despise such people, because that's the paradigm they've been taught.
They annoy the fuck out of me but I feel pity more than any other sentiment.

I DO on the other hand absolutely hate the IDEA. The whole thing goes back to the puritanical notion that you 'contaminate' your body with drugs, just as you also 'contaminate' it with sex. It's the abstinence-as-spiritual-virtue concept.

'clean & sober' in itself implies that addiction makes you somehow DIRTY, lesser, morally lacking. When all it really means is you're a human being with a problem.

What I find the most bloody depressing is all those 12-step acolytes who, having been told to hate themselves for their perceived 'moral weakness', are then conditioned to find affirmation in pointlessly and mechanically counting 'days of sobriety'.

Like THAT'S your one achievement. You managed to force yourself not to use for one more day ; here's your imaginary brownie point, good boy. And you're just gonna continue counting sober days.... forever? Until the day you die or what?
What happened to the notion of getting past your drug problem and living your sodding LIFE.

Imagine defining your entire existence and self-worth by what you deny yourself.
Oh and if you slip up JUST ONCE, however briefly, however insignificant the occasion, you've now comprehensively invalidated all of your achievements up to this point.

... Fuck it's like whoever invented this 'programme' actively WANTED participants to fail.
The 12 step thing is some nightmare cult bullshit that about made me walk out of rehab when I was there
 
The 12 step thing is some nightmare cult bullshit that about made me walk out of rehab when I was there
... My mate walked (having been mandated) when they tried to make him eat his sodding breakfast cereal with a fork. 'cause you know obviously spoons have hypnotic powers and will make you run out and do dope on the spot, or something.

HOW. THE. FUCK. are you meant to re-adapt to normal life etc when you're being fed the notion you won't be able to cope with the sight of a fucking SPOON. (Also, how do you realistically avoid spoons wtf 😶)
 
... My mate walked (having been mandated) when they tried to make him eat his sodding breakfast cereal with a fork. 'cause you know obviously spoons have hypnotic powers and will make you run out and do dope on the spot, or something.

HOW. THE. FUCK. are you meant to re-adapt to normal life etc when you're being fed the notion you won't be able to cope with the sight of a fucking SPOON. (Also, how do you realistically avoid spoons wtf 😶)
I’ve seen people who were pretty normal and not religious at all start preaching the gospel after getting indoctrinated with the 12 steps as god became their new drug of choice. I am agnostic and will never be relying on a “power greater to myself to restore me to sanity,” which they preach all the time.
 
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