Methadone to Suboxone Difficulty

[ReedWarrior]

Hello Bluelight forum,
I was on 35mg of methadone for the last 5 years, tapered down from 110 over the previous 8 years (13 years total.) Starting last Sunday my doctor began titrating me gradually onto Suboxone, called the Bernese Method I think. Today I stopped taking methadone and began taking the full 16mg of Suboxone. Long story short it's not working for shit and I am in hell.

He told me it would be a smooth, near effortless transition with only mild withdrawals. That turned out to be completely false. As my Suboxone dose got gradually larger, the withdrawals got more intense. I know the Suboxone is working because I feel loopy as hell, but it doesn't feel like an opioid to me at all. It reminds me of drinking cough syrup when I was a teen. I get dizzy spells I'm so effed up but at the same time I'm cold sweating, skin feels like its on fire, pounding headache, pain everywhere and absolutely no motivation to do anything but lay in bed. I feel no emotions but irritation with everything and everyone.

I'm starting to think this is a failure and I'm stuck on methadone, a prisoner of the clinic for life. Methadone works fine for me but the lack of mobility has crippled my career, made it difficult to help my elderly mother in another state. Any experience or opinions on this would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[plumbus-nine]

You might be somebody who could greatly benefit from the tolerance mitigating effects of dissociatives (funnily enough the 'teenage drug' DXM contained in OTC cough syrups is one and the only one which is readily available). But when you have an open minded doc, you might get a script for memantine which is more clean and lacks the body load of DXM but there is no reason why that one shouldn't work. In fact some rare pain docs prescribe it alongside to opioids to limit tolerance and dependence. It works either way, to limit tolerance development as well as withdrawal with pre-existing tolerance. I kicked morphine @ 120mg/d with a couple of memantine megadoses and didn't have to go through withdrawal, it was much easier to get rid of than prescription antidepressants for example. And I was dependent on the morphine, when I ran out without having memantine, I'd get a pronounced withdrawal, never made it through more than a couple of days until I begged the doc to refill.

Pregabalin is another one which can be of great aid specially against restless body stuff. It helped me to taper down before doing the memantine kick.

 

[ReedWarrior]

Interesting thanks.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Buprenorphine caused be terrible side effects at 8mg! I split the dose i.e. took 2mg every 6 hours. That may or may not help. But methadone has NMDA activity and so can cause nasty effects. But I only used it for a week and needed nothing. YMMV.

35mg/day of methadone could JUST be covered using dihydrocodeine, but I know the US does not approve this medication for detoxification. Hydrocodontin would be similar, I presume.

 

[Confessor-Sedai]

I’m sorry but your doctor completely did it wrong. I weened off completely at 2mg, & had to wait 72 hours with nothing in my system, aside from 1mg Xanax tablets 4x a day, 2mg Klonopin at night mixed w/ Clonodine, vitamins, Imodium… all of this because of Methadone’s extremely long half-life. Even doing a small dose of 10mg of Methadone, you may feel shitty the next day but it’s not enough to safely take Bupe. Next time, I would see if you can find another doctor and see if they can prescribe Clonodine (helps with the hot/cold, restlessness), an anxiety med with a long half-life like Klonopin or Valium, & that will help the anxiety, high heart rate, help you eat, sleep, and make the uncomfortable withdrawals a little more manageable. Seriously read all of the horror stories that happen because doctors who think they know everything start patients on Suboxone way too soon before the opioids were out of their system. You gotta lower yourself to at least 5mg-1mg of Methadone, stop taking it for 72-hrs. Even with doing that, I still never felt right on Subs… they made me feel edgy and sickly.

I relapsed pretty hard on H and went to rehab 5yrs ago this June and was put back on Methadone. In ‘21, I was diagnosed with stage 4 B-Cell Lymphoma and it was brutal. But still Methadone is what saved my life! I was in so much pain and wanted to use, but with the help of support system and family. I am healthier than ever, going on 5years clean. Since I always attended my meetings and had positive drug tests- I only have to go the clinic once a month for 28 take homes. I was at 195mg and am now at 112mg of Methadone. It saved my life and while I still have a while to go and don’t believe Methadone isn’t for everyone- I believe it’s more for those who have tried everything else including Suboxone and aren’t having luck.

 

[ReedWarrior]

I’m sorry but your doctor completely did it wrong. I weened off completely at 2mg, & had to wait 72 hours with nothing in my system, aside from 1mg Xanax tablets 4x a day, 2mg Klonopin at night mixed w/ Clonodine, vitamins, Imodium… all of this because of Methadone’s extremely long half-life. Even doing a small dose of 10mg of Methadone, you may feel shitty the next day but it’s not enough to safely take Bupe. Next time, I would see if you can find another doctor and see if they can prescribe Clonodine (helps with the hot/cold, restlessness), an anxiety med with a long half-life like Klonopin or Valium, & that will help the anxiety, high heart rate, help you eat, sleep, and make the uncomfortable withdrawals a little more manageable. Seriously read all of the horror stories that happen because doctors who think they know everything start patients on Suboxone way too soon before the opioids were out of their system. You gotta lower yourself to at least 5mg-1mg of Methadone, stop taking it for 72-hrs. Even with doing that, I still never felt right on Subs… they made me feel edgy and sickly.

I relapsed pretty hard on H and went to rehab 5yrs ago this June and was put back on Methadone. In ‘21, I was diagnosed with stage 4 B-Cell Lymphoma and it was brutal. But still Methadone is what saved my life! I was in so much pain and wanted to use, but with the help of support system and family. I am healthier than ever, going on 5years clean. Since I always attended my meetings and had positive drug tests- I only have to go the clinic once a month for 28 take homes. I was at 195mg and am now at 112mg of Methadone. It saved my life and while I still have a while to go and don’t believe Methadone isn’t for everyone- I believe it’s more for those who have tried everything else including Suboxone and aren’t having luck.

Thanks for your reply. It's now about 6 weeks later and finally starting to feel functional again. I'm on 24mg /day generic buprenorephine pills because the naloxone in the Suboxone strips made me very sick. It's not true that you don't absorb it, the NIH even says you absorb about 10% sublingually. So honestly, now that I'm transitioned I can safely say that there's only two benefits to transitioning to buprenorephine from methadone, that 1) I can travel and 2) I can tahe something in the evening for pain. On every other criteria methadone is superior, both for opioid maintenance and pain control. With buprenorephine my head feels nice and comfortable but simultaneously I feel the full effects of my Crohn's and arthritis pain. It's hard to describe but I'd compare it roughly to weed. You can get really high and be distracted from your pain, but it's still fully there, sabotaging your life. It's similar with buprenorephine. If you just have opioid addiction it's a good medicine but if you also have chronic pain it's better than nothing but doesn't compare to real opioids.

I’m sorry but your doctor completely did it wrong. I weened off completely at 2mg, & had to wait 72 hours with nothing in my system, aside from 1mg Xanax tablets 4x a day, 2mg Klonopin at night mixed w/ Clonodine, vitamins, Imodium… all of this because of Methadone’s extremely long half-life. Even doing a small dose of 10mg of Methadone, you may feel shitty the next day but it’s not enough to safely take Bupe. Next time, I would see if you can find another doctor and see if they can prescribe Clonodine (helps with the hot/cold, restlessness), an anxiety med with a long half-life like Klonopin or Valium, & that will help the anxiety, high heart rate, help you eat, sleep, and make the uncomfortable withdrawals a little more manageable. Seriously read all of the horror stories that happen because doctors who think they know everything start patients on Suboxone way too soon before the opioids were out of their system. You gotta lower yourself to at least 5mg-1mg of Methadone, stop taking it for 72-hrs. Even with doing that, I still never felt right on Subs… they made me feel edgy and sickly.

I relapsed pretty hard on H and went to rehab 5yrs ago this June and was put back on Methadone. In ‘21, I was diagnosed with stage 4 B-Cell Lymphoma and it was brutal. But still Methadone is what saved my life! I was in so much pain and wanted to use, but with the help of support system and family. I am healthier than ever, going on 5years clean. Since I always attended my meetings and had positive drug tests- I only have to go the clinic once a month for 28 take homes. I was at 195mg and am now at 112mg of Methadone. It saved my life and while I still have a while to go and don’t believe Methadone isn’t for everyone- I believe it’s more for those who have tried everything else including Suboxone and aren’t having luck.

 

[Northerngyal]

Could you slowly taper off the methadone before you switched to the subs? I’m on subs 16 mg a day and I’ve been thinking of switching to methadone.

 

[ReedWarrior]

Could you slowly taper off the methadone before you switched to the subs? I’m on subs 16 mg a day and I’ve been thinking of switching to methadone.

Well I did taper down to 35mg. I got lower than that but my chronic pain made sleeping difficult so I went back up to 35. I successfully switched over the last 6 weeks but it was rough, way more difficult than the docs led me to believe. Methadone is a more complete and balanced opioid. It works very well if you can get used to the heavy-handed control over your life, and not getting high in the evening. I did find the last part somewhat difficult because of pain issues and the fact that methadone is somewhat of an "edgy" high compared to say or morphine. It made me feel a bit tense and it took a second drug to balance it out. If you drink or take benzos with it you'll sooner or later get caught, and they don't just take your carries away they do all kinds of stuff to make your life hell including reducing your dose involuntarily. Being in methadone is like being in prison. There's a reason people call it "liquid handcuffs."

 

[Northerngyal]

Well I did taper down to 35mg. I got lower than that but my chronic pain made sleeping difficult so I went back up to 35. I successfully switched over the last 6 weeks but it was rough, way more difficult than the docs led me to believe. Methadone is a more complete and balanced opioid. It works very well if you can get used to the heavy-handed control over your life, and not getting high in the evening. I did find the last part somewhat difficult because of pain issues and the fact that methadone is somewhat of an "edgy" high compared to say or morphine. It made me feel a bit tense and it took a second drug to balance it out. If you drink or take benzos with it you'll sooner or later get caught, and they don't just take your carries away they do all kinds of stuff to make your life hell including reducing your dose involuntarily. Being in methadone is like being in prison. There's a reason people call it "liquid handcuffs."

Ugh.. I’m sorry you’ve had to go through all of that. Sounds terrible. I guess I should rethink before I switch to methadone. Right now I feel like I’m still craving opiates while on the subs. It feels awful. I hate that there’s naloxone is Suboxone! I miss that opiate euphoria feeling so much.

Ah yes.. the doctors always lead you to believe that its a piece of cake.

 

[ReedWarrior]

Ugh.. I’m sorry you’ve had to go through all of that. Sounds terrible. I guess I should rethink before I switch to methadone. Right now I feel like I’m still craving opiates while on the subs. It feels awful. I hate that there’s naloxone is Suboxone! I miss that opiate euphoria feeling so much.

Ah yes.. the doctors always lead you to believe that its a piece of cake.

Old junkies trick their brains by cycling their dosage down for a bit. Not giving advice just saying some find it helpful. Some find kratom extracts helpful too, in moderation.
But yes I know what you mean. Buprenorephine is an incomplete opioid. The high leaves something to be desired :/

 

[Northerngyal]

Might help to cycle your dose a bit, take a bit less for a while, then a bit more. That's an old junkie trick. Some find kratom extracts helpful too, in moderation.
But yes I know what you mean. Buprenorephine is an incomplete opioid. The high leaves something to be desired :/

I might just give that a try, thx Kratom can be taken with subs? That’s good to know. I am interested. I have been telling myself that I might just wean off the subs for a day or two and treat myself to a night of percs.. I know it will bite me in the ass but I’m so desperate lol.

 

[ReedWarrior]

I might just give that a try, thx Kratom can be taken with subs? That’s good to know. I am interested. I have been telling myself that I might just wean off the subs for a day or two and treat myself to a night of percs.. I know it will bite me in the ass but I’m so desperate lol.

I've taken Krave 100X with Suboxone and it seems to help it work better, though could also be my imagination. I haven't been on buprenorephine that long yet.

 

[crippyman]

I might just give that a try, thx Kratom can be taken with subs? That’s good to know. I am interested. I have been telling myself that I might just wean off the subs for a day or two and treat myself to a night of percs.. I know it will bite me in the ass but I’m so desperate lol.

It's not worth it, for one the perks aren't really going to have that much of an affect and two, it's not worth it to get sick and then take your perks and then have to wait like 48 hours before you can take your Suboxone again so you don't get precipitated withdrawals. I've done this before and I didn't wait long enough and when I took the Suboxone I started to pour sweat and it was the most uncomfortable feeling. It's just not worth it in my opinion especially if you paid premium price for the perks

 

[ReedWarrior]

It's not worth it, for one the perks aren't really going to have that much of an affect and two, it's not worth it to get sick and then take your perks and then have to wait like 48 hours before you can take your Suboxone again so you don't get precipitated withdrawals. I've done this before and I didn't wait long enough and when I took the Suboxone I started to pour sweat and it was the most uncomfortable feeling. It's just not worth it in my opinion especially if you paid premium price for the perks

Perks are a short acting opioid, in and out if your system quick. It shouldn't take 48 hours to restart. The reason they do that with methadone is that it has such a ling half life.

 

[Northerngyal]

It's not worth it, for one the perks aren't really going to have that much of an affect and two, it's not worth it to get sick and then take your perks and then have to wait like 48 hours before you can take your Suboxone again so you don't get precipitated withdrawals. I've done this before and I didn't wait long enough and when I took the Suboxone I started to pour sweat and it was the most uncomfortable feeling. It's just not worth it in my opinion especially if you paid premium price for the perks

Thanks for your reply. That’s exactly what I was worried about. In the beginning of my Suboxone journey I treated myself to some percs and I woke up the next morning with projectile vomiting and shaking ect… I thought I was going to die. It’s so evil that they put the naloxone in the Suboxone. I guess it’s for the better, though.

I do buy extra subs off my friend and treat myself to a higher dose if I’m really feeling crappy and missing the opiates. I guess I’ll just do that instead *welp*..

 

[Northerngyal]

I've taken Krave 100X with Suboxone and it seems to help it work better, though could also be my imagination. I haven't been on buprenorephine that long yet.

What’s Krave? I have a few little tricks too that I find boost the Suboxone and feel more like an opiate feeling. I haven’t been on subs very long either. 6 months for me I’m on 16 mg a day. It’s a weird little drug that’s for sure but it seems to be helping me. I still crave the pills but I guess that’s just a battle that I will have to fight everyday.

 

[ReedWarrior]

Krave is a company that makes kratom extracts.

 

[ReedWarrior]

What’s Krave? I have a few little tricks too that I find boost the Suboxone and feel more like an opiate feeling. I haven’t been on subs very long either. 6 months for me I’m on 16 mg a day. It’s a weird little drug that’s for sure but it seems to be helping me. I still crave the pills but I guess that’s just a battle that I will have to fight everyday.

Also, there's a lot of ppl on reddit and here that say you can spit out the naloxone after the buprenorephine absorbs. Some even say docs told them to do it. My doc told me that you don't absorb any of the naloxone, that they only add it to discourage people from shooting it up. But I also read an NIH article that says you absorb about 10% sublingually..

 

[Señor Moreno]

Hello Bluelight forum,
I was on 35mg of methadone for the last 5 years, tapered down from 110 over the previous 8 years (13 years total.) Starting last Sunday my doctor began titrating me gradually onto Suboxone, called the Bernese Method I think. Today I stopped taking methadone and began taking the full 16mg of Suboxone. Long story short it's not working for shit and I am in hell.

He told me it would be a smooth, near effortless transition with only mild withdrawals. That turned out to be completely false. As my Suboxone dose got gradually larger, the withdrawals got more intense. I know the Suboxone is working because I feel loopy as hell, but it doesn't feel like an opioid to me at all. It reminds me of drinking cough syrup when I was a teen. I get dizzy spells I'm so effed up but at the same time I'm cold sweating, skin feels like its on fire, pounding headache, pain everywhere and absolutely no motivation to do anything but lay in bed. I feel no emotions but irritation with everything and everyone.

I'm starting to think this is a failure and I'm stuck on methadone, a prisoner of the clinic for life. Methadone works fine for me but the lack of mobility has crippled my career, made it difficult to help my elderly mother in another state. Any experience or opinions on this would be appreciated. Thanks.

That clinics regimes are draconian, you are right that's like being in prison.
But, as you are a legit pain patient, isn't there a possibility for you to get accepted in a pain clinic and then being able to pick your methadone weekly or monthly, like you need and deserve?
I mean if time goes by and you aren't still OK on bupe, that is.

 

[Northerngyal]

Also, there's a lot of ppl on reddit and here that say you can spit out the naloxone after the buprenorephine absorbs. Some even say docs told them to do it. My doc told me that you don't absorb any of the naloxone, that they only add it to discourage people from shooting it up. But I also read an NIH article that says you absorb about 10% sublingually..

Worddd. I’m so going to try that tonight lol. I’ll let you know the results That would be called the “spit method” that ppl have been talking about, right. It all makes sense now. Thx