Mind quoting some notable talking points?A very good chart on half-lives and a look into long term benzo therapy
[/URL]
Mind quoting some notable talking points?A very good chart on half-lives and a look into long term benzo therapy
[/URL]
I have been citing everything I've said, it was how I started off the thread as well. I don't really have anything left to validate. I was just wondering why health centers define a 'sweet spot' for low risk alcohol consumption but benzos have the stigma of always being bad, even at therapeutic doses?Notable points are subjective. This paper relates to the discussion at hand. I feel as if this whole thing is going over and over in circles as I stated before. Why dont you post some data from scientists and doctors that validate your posts as well. That is what this site is all about sir.
Alcohol is known for its seizure-inducing withdrawals and PAWS aswell. It is basically a liquid benzo but it fries the DNA of every organ it travels through on the way down
I have been citing everything I've said, it was how I started off the thread as well. I don't really have anything left to validate. I was just wondering why health centers define a 'sweet spot' for low risk alcohol consumption but benzos have the stigma of always being bad, even at therapeutic doses?
They give alcoholics benzos because if they do not, the withdrawing alcoholic can suffer seizure, stroke, ive even read of one having a brain aneurism its some wicked shit, i went through a bad time losing my dog, i drank anywhere from a half litre to 2 bottles of hard liquor/day the days where i consumed more was because i was using cocaine too, i quite literally had bought a silver platter and had a good 20 gram pile of cocaine sitting on it with rows of different sized lines ready to go for a solid 6 months till i confessed to my doctor what i was doing, he placed me on benzos and told me not to stop drinking cold turkey, but i never suffered any wds thanks to a good doctor. I still have that silver platter but unfortunately i smoke my coke now :/I have read over the thread again and am still confused here. We are comparing inconclusive data on long-term effects of Benzo use, to conclusive data on the effects of Alcohol. Again, Alcohol is a literal POISON. It is the worst drug of all in my eyes. I have been on Benzos since watching a man die 10 feet from me in the military over a decade ago. They quite literally have saved my life. I get no high or euphoria, but thet allow me to function and not have memories as vivid as I once did.
The only valid speaking point I see here, is, the withdrawals of both Alcohol and Benzos being potentially fatal. You know what is funny though? When withdrawals from Alcohol begin, inpatient doctors give the patients BENZOS! And let us not forget that SSRI medications can cause seizures and even death if stopped suddenly at a high enough dose.
Alcohol is a poison that damages the liver. It WILL cause liver disease and cirrhosis if you abuse it everyday. There is zero conclusive evidence about any long-term negative effects of Benzodiazepine use.
They give alcoholics benzos because if they do not, the withdrawing alcoholic can suffer seizure, stroke, ive even read of one having a brain aneurism its some wicked shit, i went through a bad time losing my dog, i drank anywhere from a half litre to 2 bottles of hard liquor/day the days where i consumed more was because i was using cocaine too, i quite literally had bought a silver platter and had a good 20 gram pile of cocaine sitting on it with rows of different sized lines ready to go for a solid 6 months till i confessed to my doctor what i was doing, he placed me on benzos and told me not to stop drinking cold turkey, but i never suffered any wds thanks to a good doctor. I still have that silver platter but unfortunately i smoke my coke now :/
But yes, alcohol is just fucking poison but it has its uses and can be sociable but to get into a grueling habbit of drinking copious amounts isnt wise
I wouldn't say ZERO conclusive evidence, as the paper I posted has have evidence of negative consequences of long term benzo use. The evidence of long term CHRONIC alcohol use as stated in the title of this thread, is just clearly worse for the body than THERAPEUTIC long-term benzo use. There is overwhelming evidence of this. Nobody is saying that drinking everyday at small amounts is going to cause serious harm, although harm will be done (albeit small if done in small amounts). And benzos have there own consequences when used it the long-term, and evidence has been provided in this thread showing the dangers of long term benzo use at therapeutic dosages. But to say that a daily moderate dose of a benzo is going to cause more damage than a person drinking everyday at the amounts and frequency which would apply to the chronic drinker is wrong.
People on this site come here to find answers, and this thread was an extremely good topic until it circled around on itself for the umpteenth time. It is not about chronic drinking vs therapeutic benzo use anymore.
Similar mechanisms of action and side effects in withdrawal, but taking a benzo at a therapeutic dose daily is more dangerous than 2-3 beers a night?With alcohol, the toxic effects are extremely dose related. I regard alcohol as a relatively safe and benign substance at low doses, but the dangers rise exponentially as the dose rises and so large amounts are extremely harmful. Benzos on the other hand, are relatively safe and benign when used sporadically or for a very short time (often even in large doses), but the dangers rise exponentionally when they are taken daily for any extended period.
So with benzos, it's the length of usage that is the biggest determining factor whereas with alcohol it's the dose.
I went over withdrawal in my main post. Withdrawal from benzos at therapeutic levels is often asymptomatic, from the doctor that developed the method herself, stating that fears of withdrawal are often overblown due to horror stories from heavy abusers/street addicts that may have gone through rapid detox by a bad doctor or ran out of supply. Yes, horror stories will gravitate towards sites like benzo buddies but there are already anecdotes in this thread of asymptomatic withdrawal. The people who tapered off without issue aren't online sharing their experience. This is true for all drugs. Read some SSRI horror stories, yet they are some of the most prescribed medications. There used to be a site called paxilprogress, filled with people struggling to get off the SSRI paxil.If you doubt what I am telling you is true just do some research on benzo withdrawal. You will entire websites like benzobuddies filled with people trying to recover from these drugs. They often have to taper for months or years and then spend months or years recovering after that and some never fully recover. I withdrew from benzos 10 years ago and it was horrendous, I won't even go into what those drugs did to me.
You just don't see this with alcohol. I challenge you to find me even one person who became ill for years because they stopped drinking their nightly glass of wine.
You keep saying the word buzz, which makes be think you were seeking their use recreationally. The few people I've talked to saying they are withdrawing badly from their "0.5mg script" weren't actually taking 0.5mg.Because they are, as I tried to explain above. There is a safe level of alcohol exposure for most of the population at least (some people should not drink obviously) but there is no safe level of daily benzo exposure. When benzos are taken every day - even in small amounts that barely even give you a buzz, there is still a risk they will cause changes to your brain that result in what is called protracted withdrawal syndrome which can last months, years or even indefinitely in some cases.
I have spent a lot of time in the benzo withdrawal community and I've seen so many cases of people prescribed what you would think was a minuscule dose, like .5 miligrams of klonopin per day, who had hellish experiences coming off it. They weren't even getting buzzed, at least with alcohol you have to drink enough to get buzzed before you get withdrawal.
Caffeine consumption is considered chronic if you drink coffee every morning as part of your routine. Drinking 2-3 beers a night is chronic by definition. Xanax and Alcohol come close in terms of action duration, this would be like saying nightly Xanax is not chronic use.@BzCurio , your title talks about chronic drinkers. Those who fall under the category of chronic drinkers are not the 2-3 beers a night. A chronic drinker will continue to drink to keep alcohol in their system. Just as a chronic benzo user, therapeutic dose or not, will use benzos to keep a constant level of drug in their body. To drink chronically would mean to maintain a a level of alcohol in the body if you are going to compare the two. So like many have already said, it is worse to drink chronically than to take benzos at a therapeutic dose daily. Your question has been answered several times. You are not wrong in saying that that chronic benzo use has its risks, you and others including myself have provided data for that too.
There's nothing to be correct about, we have just had a few people pop in that appear to not have fully read the original post. So we go in circles. You also just equated chronic alcohol consumption with being a 24/7 drunk, which is all I was pointing out. We were all just bringing information to the table.I am done with this thread. You are obviously not going to quit until you are told you are correct. You have been given plenty of info. 4 whole pages now. Take it or leave it.
Alcohol is known for its seizure-inducing withdrawals and PAWS aswell. It is basically a liquid benzo but it fries the DNA of every organ it travels through on the way down
- I believe your ability to handle your own anxiety at it's peak becomes diminished with long term use. All your natural reactions to mitigate that state or even a panic attack are sort of forgotten. From what I've read about PAWS, it isn't a consistent condition. It comes and goes in waves after long term use but I've generally only see it present in benzo/alcohol abusers.
- Damage? No. Forcing the brain to make changes? Most likely. There is evidence both alcohol and benzos change DNA transcription. However, cited in my first post, there is no literature that exists as of 2012 (and benzos are old) that they ever lose their anxiolytic properties. 'Massive damage' would be an overstatement unless you're taking high doses multiple times a day. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) can cause permanent brain damage and paralysis at high doses, but we don't take those doses.
- I don't doubt the early onset dementia/Alzheimers claims around long term benzo use (as well as alcohol use). In just the short period I've used them my memory has become pretty fragmented even when they're not in my system, but that may also be because I have more responsibilities to keep track of now. But I'll gladly trade 10 years of my older years if it means being happier now.
1. Half life of Klonopin is roughly 30-40 hours. For any drugs it takes about 7x halflifes for it to be undetectable in your blood stream. With that said, at about 3x half life the concentration of the drug is considered negligible. I can last about 3 days with no Klonopin at all before I feel rebound anxiety. I can tell it's the Klonopin as one of the symptoms of anxiety that I rarely get is jaw clenching and neck tensing, and those will present themselves. That's when I play with the dose and see what will get rid of it, in most cases just 0.25mg will ease it. So I keep Klonopin active in my system chronically at a ridiculously low dose (0.12-0.25mg) until a day comes that I need to pull out the full 1-2mg. I see this as better than tapering off entirely because I have no desire to stop taking it.
2. I get about 200mg of caffeine a day, but I am very likely ADHD (was actually just tested for it, but will refuse amphetamines/other dopamine releasing agents) as my afternoon 80mg can nearly put me to sleep. I largely believe my deepest bout of depression stemmed from an attempt to quit caffeine, there are many anecdotal claims of this phenomena.
It can give me anxiety but not in a negative way, it usually ups me and makes me feel motivated and energetic, not an anxious mess.
Caffeine will impact the effectiveness of the benzo if they're both taken at the same time, but if I'm pushing something like 2.5mg and whatever social event I needed it for is over I will drink caffeine to snap me out of the fogginess.
One thing worth mentioning here is caffeine tolerance, ironically, will make benzos work better by increasing the density of benzo binding sites https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437321/
3. Same way I always have. Avoid social situations, not attend events, destroy relationships as a result, you probably know the drill.
I have tried Lyrica (Pregabalin) 300mg 2x a day and felt nothing from it. I have been offers a medical card but it will be of no use as (based on prior experiences with various methods) I am a completely non responder to MJ.
I refuse to take SSRI's due to the severe sexual side effects and emotional blunting, and the European Medicines Agency recently put out a mandatory black box warning on all SSRI/SNRI's that these side effects may be permanent. Suspected to be caused by DNA damage: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6083487/