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Opioids Kratom Megathread V.6

Apparently, and I'd tend to believe this myself, Kratom is a Serotonergic, GABAergic, Dopaminergic and Adrenergic. What I notice most is strong muscle relaxation. I have noticed that within the Mitragynine molecular structure it could be said that Kratom contains the structure for Nonbenzodiazepines (Imidazopyridines).

This is just something I noticed myself this year and have yet to find any research even mentioning anything with regards to this.

Can someone with some fair knowledge of pharmaceutical science please confirm that this idea may be true and that this might contain the key to it potent muscle relaxant, sedative and sleep inducing effects?

The only thing I ever read is that mitragynine and the other Kratom alkaloids can be seen clearly to contain the serotonin molecular structure within, but I looked a bit closer and can see this nonbenzodiazepine structure and am intrigued if this could be an element therein. Thanks.
 
Recently received a batch of Horned Leaf Maeng Da. Haven't gotten much from it on the first trial. My question is this. If i have been on tramadol daily for a couple years, taken at prescribed doses most of the time.

If i just take the kratom only will i be able to feel it fully, cuz of the tramadol habit. I'm taking 6grams of kratom and I'm curious if it will work up to par, probably with some herb thrown in as well.

Thanks for any help :)<3
 
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I have a question for anyone that has quit a fairly large kratom habit (like +15g/day).
Did you experience PAWS?

Most people say that kratom wd is fairly mild(at least compared to other opioids) and lasts only a couple of days but there's not much info about what happens once the acute wd is over.
 
Plenty of people have reported WD that can last quite awhile. It might not be as bad as harded opioids, but WD and PAWS can still happen.
 
What is this "SITSA" bill people are freaking out about on other forums that's the next new proposed bill to ban Kratom?

Do you guys think we have more to be concerned about than the other times when we thought a ban was coming and it still didn't happen?
 
I might stop taking kratom entirely beceause the taste is SO GOD DAMN BAD. Does anyone have a way around this? I can't even drink the tea. Call me a lil bitch but I need alot to catch effects and I almost barfed yesterday
 
I might stop taking kratom entirely beceause the taste is SO GOD DAMN BAD. Does anyone have a way around this? I can't even drink the tea. Call me a lil bitch but I need alot to catch effects and I almost barfed yesterday

Common methods for avoiding the taste:

1)use gelcaps
2)Parachute using squares of toilet/tissue paper
3)Mix Kratom into liquid that helps to mask the taste such as orange or grapefruit juice
4)Mix Kratom into something like yogurt or pudding then eat quickly

I think doing number 3 or 4 just makes a nasty mix that you still have to consume but some people say it helps a lot for them.
 
Ohhh the yogurt is a good idea thanks.

I've heard some people say applesauce works good too. Never tried any of these (yogurt, pudding, applesauce) with kratom so I can't say how well it will work... Seems to me a gritty Kratom flavored yogurt would be pretty gross tbh
 
Though Kratom doesn't taste the best (i think of it as a REALLY STRONG black tea), I usually just end up chugging it down as fast as i can. I typically weight my desired dose, put it in a water bottle and add maybe 2in of water...i shake it up, let it settle and drink it fast as hell. It sucks a little for those 3 seconds (because there isnt much water). But it is TOLERABLE.
 
What is this "SITSA" bill people are freaking out about on other forums that's the next new proposed bill to ban Kratom?

Do you guys think we have more to be concerned about than the other times when we thought a ban was coming and it still didn't happen?

I hope nope... Id rather not get back on opiates... Im starting to think these idiots in Washington are working with the CIA to get people back on heroin. (Yes we are protecting poppy fields in Afghanistan, heroin production has increased over 87% since 2017)
 
Ok so this was recently posted on Reddit and while I am pretty dense and when it comes to legal language maybe you guys can make more sense of it than I can.

What it seems to me to indicate though, is that we aren't necessarily YET in as much trouble as some of us think we are, and that this is a very long process which could eventually go one way or another, but won't lead to anything most likely in the immediate future:





Legal Perspective on SITSA: All you need to know



"Law Student here who has written on the topic of Kratom bans and the appropriate action to take should the worst happen. I want to backup from SITSA and elaborate on where we are and what are options are and why you all need to take a deep breath and relax but also stay vigilant. We are not in as bad of a position as you think.
So the attorney general has three options assuming SITSA is passed these are emergency scheduling under 21 USC 811 (h), permanent scheduling under 21 USC 811 a, and SITSA scheduling. All three are bad cases for the attorney general to make.
Just to fill you in on each form of scheduling here goes:

  • Temporary scheduling
This is the statutory language;
" If the Attorney General finds that the scheduling of a substance in schedule I on a temporary basis is necessary to avoid an imminent hazard to the public safety, he may, by order and without regard to the requirements of subsection (b) relating to the Secretary of Health and Human Services, schedule such substance in schedule I if the substance is not listed in any other schedule in section 812 of this title"
This basically means that the attorney general can schedule without getting preclearance from the department of health and human services in their recommendation. Then the attorney general publishes a rule in the register demonstrating that the substance meets the imminent threat to public health, and has a high potential for abuse and lack of accepted and safe medical use. Under this route the AG bans for two years without judicial. However the court in Touby v. US said that prosecutions under those who posses temporarily banned substances can be challenged in court (this is huge for SITSA). The AG already backed out of this route and opened the beginning stages of option two, permanent scheduling.
2) Permanent scheduling
Under permanent scheduling 21 USC 811 a requires a full hearing on the record which will take a year or longer given the extensive process of scheduling hearings (see the DEA MDMA hearings that took two years), then if we lose there we get judicial review which will likely add two more years to the process. Not to mention the weak regulatory case that the DEA has in actually banning kratom because it does not meet the abuse standard required under 21 usc 811 and 812. The DEAs legal counsel probably knows this and it really isn't a good case.
The language is here:
" The Attorney General shall, before initiating proceedings under subsection (a) to control a drug or other substance or to remove a drug or other substance entirely from the schedules, and after gathering the necessary data, request from the Secretary a scientific and medical evaluation, and his recommendations, as to whether such drug or other substance should be so controlled or removed as a controlled substance. In making such evaluation and recommendations, the Secretary shall consider the factors listed in paragraphs (2), (3), (6), (7), and (8) of subsection (c) and any scientific or medical considerations involved in paragraphs (1), (4), and (5) of such subsection. The recommendations of the Secretary shall include recommendations with respect to the appropriate schedule, if any, under which such drug or other substance should be listed. The evaluation and the recommendations of the Secretary shall be made in writing and submitted to the Attorney General within a reasonable time. The recommendations of the Secretary to the Attorney General shall be binding on the Attorney General as to such scientific and medical matters, and if the Secretary recommends that a drug or other substance not be controlled, the Attorney General shall not control the drug or other substance. If the Attorney General determines that these facts and all other relevant data constitute substantial evidence of potential for abuse such as to warrant control or substantial evidence that the drug or other substance should be removed entirely from the schedules, he shall initiate proceedings for control or removal, as the case may be, under subsection (a). "
3) SITSA (this is a weak argument to assuming it passes)
To dispel a few rumors about SITSA

  • We have no recourse once it is banned because the bill bars judicial review
This is only partially true, while it will bar judicial review during the rule making stage, all we have to do is get someone arrested for small possesion of Kratom then we are entitled to challenge the constitutionality or statutory construction by the DEA of the law
2) The laws broad language will per se give the authority to ban Kratom
This really isn' true also. In administrative law many of the issues dealt with come down to the two mostly binary modes of statutory interpretation. First is textualism, what does the text of the bill say, any textualist judge will absolutely rule in our favor seeing as the drug is clearly and textually committed to stopping synthetic lab created substances not natural plants. The DEA tried to ban hemp in a way that was contrary the marijuana statute and the court in HIA v. DEA (2004) 9th circuit shot them down. A textualist would see the language of the bill and its explicit title and clearly demonstrate that the DEA overstepped its statutory authority.
The next mode of interpretation is the pragmatist mode, mostly these guys look to the intent of the bill along with its language., this is again a slam dunk seeing as the legislative history, senate sponsor statements regarding fentanyl, and the bills title clearly and expressly without doubt limit the bill to synthetic substances.
3) There is also a vagueness argument but that doctrine isn't well established in challenging regulatory delegation by congress.
Bottom line is none of these provisions that the DEA has access to really pass the Chevron smell test, chevron is the doctrine that courts use when scrutinizing agency interpretation of their own statute. Step 1 requires a reading of the statute to see if there is ambiguous if the language is clear (which it is in this case) the clear language and intent of congress controls we could really stop here, however step two says if no ambiguous law exists was it a permissible construction of the statute, even in this case the answer is no because of the legislative history and clear intent of congress.
So please relax and get ready to fight for an amendment. We have plenty of legal options and we are in a position of strength to continue to fight at the federal level. For those of you who terror post every time one of these things happen please just relax and call when the AKA asks for you to do so."
 
Here's the AKA's latest message. I can't fully interpret it cause I suck at legal language, but sounds like some of us are worrying a bit too soon.

If someone else wants to interpret it for me, then please do:


NEW MESSAGE FROM THE AKA, BEA AND KRATOM UNITED

Call to Action


This was posted on another forum this morning and I didn't see it here yet.
Important Message from AKA, BEA and Kratom United
Attention Kratom Warriors:
When a call to action is ready we will let you know. We know it's hard to "do nothing" but there are 2 groups that have a lobbyist and another group that has an entire lobby firm. These are federal lobbyist and they have not advised advocates to launch a call or email campaign yet.
PLEASE DON'T DO ANYTHING NOW!!!
Be Patient and Wait for our CALL-TO-ACTION.
"It is simply a House Board vote on Friday. After that it moves to Senate Judiciary Committee. That is where We will focus all of our efforts. Even at that this fight is a long way from over and it is not a fight we will lose." ~AKA Admin~
UPDATE:
American Kratom Association
SITSA UPDATE (6/14)
The House Rules Committee voted on party lines, 6-4, to reject the Pocan/Gosar/Polis amendment that would have protected kratom from the SITSA scheduling authority given to the Attorney General. This was not a vote on the merit of the amendment, but rather a procedural vote by the Republicans to reject ANY amendment that was not discussed or voted on by the Committee of jurisdiction.
The SITSA bill was originally assigned to two Committees: The House Judiciary Committee, and the House Energy & Commerce Committee. When the SITSA bill was marked up by the House Judiciary Committee, the amendment to exempt kratom was not offered because of confusion by Chairman Goodlatte and his staff about the position of the kratom community on SITSA. A newly formed group at the time had published a statement on their new website supporting SITSA, and the Judiciary Committee staff were directed to that statement by a member of that newly-formed advocacy organization, and they mistakenly believed that statement represented the views of the mainstream kratom community.
The House Energy & Commerce Committee intended to debate and accept amendments on SITSA in a Hearing, but that plan was short-circuited by direction by the House Leadership that all "opioid-related" bills would be voted on by Friday of this week, and there was no time to schedule a Hearing on SITSA, so the Committee waived jurisdiction and the SITSA bill was send to the House Rules Committee.
The important point for the Kratom Nation to understand is that the vote in the House Rules was not on the merits of the amendment but was actually a procedural maneuver to block a number of other amendments that had not been heard in the Judiciary Committee.
The SITSA bill, when passed by the House on Friday this week as anticipated, will go to the Senate Judiciary Committee where the kratom amendment will be presented and debated. We will fight hard to have the amendment accepted.
We understand that many people feel the need to call their House of Representatives member. We do not feel that it would be of benefit. We will continue to focus our efforts on the Senate Judiciary Committee. We are Not asking for calls to them yet. This could change at any time, when that does happen, we will issue a Formal Call-to-Action.
FOR ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T KNOW HOW THIS WORKS:
The House Legislative Process**:**•First, a Representative sponsors a bill.•The bill is then assigned to a committee for study.•If released by the committee, the bill is put on a calendar to be voted on, debated or amended.•If the bill passes by simple majority (218 of 435), the bill moves to the Senate.•In the Senate, the bill is assigned to another committee and, if released, debated and voted on.•If the Senate makes changes, the bill must return to the House for concurrence.•The resulting bill returns to the House and Senate for final approval.•The President then has 10 days to veto the final bill or sign it into law.
Re: H.R.2851 - SITSA ActThe Rules Committee already voted and no further amendment can be added to the bill in the House. It is a done deal! On Friday, the House simply will vote on passing the bill to the Senate and it is likely to happen. All efforts now has to focus on the Senate Judiciary Committee which has the authorities to make changes to the bill...It is a long and complicated process. The fight is far from over.
Meanwhile, please be patient and await for AKA's CTA. Thank You All!
 
Recently received a batch of Horned Leaf Maeng Da. Haven't gotten much from it on the first trial. My question is this. If i have been on tramadol daily for a couple years, taken at prescribed doses most of the time.

If i just take the kratom only will i be able to feel it fully, cuz of the tramadol habit. I'm taking 6grams of kratom and I'm curious if it will work up to par, probably with some herb thrown in as well.

Thanks for any help :)
 
Good post Mycophile. So i guess its ultimately up to the President? If it gets that far? If it does (and i hope it doesn't), hopefully the president veto's it.
 
Recently received a batch of Horned Leaf Maeng Da. Haven't gotten much from it on the first trial. My question is this. If i have been on tramadol daily for a couple years, taken at prescribed doses most of the time.

If i just take the kratom only will i be able to feel it fully, cuz of the tramadol habit. I'm taking 6grams of kratom and I'm curious if it will work up to par, probably with some herb thrown in as well.

Thanks for any help :)


Ive been taking hydrocodone for 3 years and Heroin for a little while, while i quit them about a week ago...ive been using kratom. Red Bali Kratom to be more specific. I use 6 grams and i feel the effects pretty good. It actually feels like Hydrocodone/Oxy. I literally have no withdrawal symptoms and have no urges to even go back to prescription opiates and H when i use this stuff. It works.
 
Good post Mycophile. So i guess its ultimately up to the President? If it gets that far? If it does (and i hope it doesn't), hopefully the president veto's it.

I can't tell if that's what it means, looks like it might.
 
What is this "SITSA" bill people are freaking out about on other forums that's the next new proposed bill to ban Kratom?

Do you guys think we have more to be concerned about than the other times when we thought a ban was coming and it still didn't happen?

it's a game. ban kratom and let the junk fly.

it would be interesting to see who the donors are sponsoring the possible ban.

I agree that it is complete garbage . Pharmacutical has something to do with it.

I see so many "addiction" commercials (multiple types) on TV.

Stick with herb!!

You want change, vote!
 
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I hope I'm posting this in the right place. If not, feel free to move it. I posted some while back that I had got some kratom with the intention of using it to finally get off Suboxone for good. I'd been on Sub 10 years, definitely longer than most. BUT, having been an opiate user all my adult life, mostly heroin till the last bit, and having a number of chronic health issues that are terminal-ish ( 2-5 years is the guess) I wasn't sure if I cared about getting off. Then my doctor, the only reliable vendor in my small town, decided to retire and I was faced with a dilemma.

Eventually, I decided to get off using kratom, which worked. I've been off Sub now for almost a month with almost no withdrawals that the kratom doesn't fix. I'm only taking it when I begin to feel sick, usually at night. I've always had my worst withdrawals at night, especially when I can't sleep, which has been a lifelong problem. The most I ever take is a little more than a rounded teaspoon of the little plastic kind, which is smaller than regular silverware. I don't have measuring spoons or a scale, so it's the best way I have to estimate.

Anyway, now that I don't seem to be able to get pre-capped from the two vendors I trust, getting the shit down is a big hassle. It doesn't get me high or do anything but stop the withdrawals, which are relatively mild anyway. So the next thing is to taper off it. Since I hate the taste and don't want to spend all night making capsules out of powder, what I do now is mix it with Shakeology shakes. My brother used to sell the stuff, so I have plenty of it, and the coffee and chocolate taste so strong I can barely taste the kratom.

I'm looking for experience from others who have tapered off a pretty moderate dose. I've got a ton of the stuff, since one vendor sent me a lot of samples with my order, probably enough to last me, at the rate I use it until I'm thoroughly tapered. I have no desire to stay on it, as it doesn't do anything in terms of getting me high, and I'm not really looking to get high anyway. These days I get my "highs" mostly from exercise, which I'm pretty into.

Here are my thoughts, but I'd like to hear some opinions. Like I said, mostly I need it at night, although I take a smaller dose in the morning. No more than two a day, though. When I tapered off Sub before, the withdrawals lasted several months, so I expect to be uncomfortable for a while no matter what. I'm planning on cutting the morning dose to a half-teaspoon and see if it works. I have white, green, and red strains, and as someone advised, I use the red when I want to relax and the white in the a.m. Seems to work that way... If that doesn't cause me to feel like I have to dose the evening earlier, then next I'll start to cut that dose back as well, first to a round teaspoon with no extra, then a flat one, then 3/4, 1/2, etc.

By alternating morning and evening tapering and slowly but steadily decreasing it, I hope to get off in a couple of months. Obviously, I don't want to be on it for years, like I was the sub! I don't know what overall health problems it can cause, but since almost all of my organs are defective, the less time I ingest a product I just don't know that much about the better. Especially since almost everything impacts the liver, and mine's badly compromised already.

Still, since I hate suffering, if it takes a little longer, especially to get off the night dose, I'll take a little longer. Sleep is one of my worst problems not just when in withdrawal but in general. When I'm on a steady opioid, like Sub or methadone, and don't have the ups and downs of heroin or pill use where you might go a couple of days without, then do a whole bunch at once, I sleep pretty well. Kratom, especially at the doses I'm using, doesn't work so well for sleep. So I got my regular doctor to put me on Trazodone for a while. I don't really like it, but it works OK. Hopefully, with the exercise and once I'm done completely getting off opiates and opiate-like things, sleep may resolve itself and I won't have to take it anymore.

Any thoughts or encouragement from here would be appreciated! Even though I've lived as a "recovering person" for 10 years this time--maintenance meds are not, IMHO, a bar against sobriety--I haven't been opiate-free for more like 15-20 years, and the break between heroin addiction and Oxycontin addiction was like three years only. So this is still new and a little bit scary. (For many of us, we'd never get any clean and sober time without maintenance medication!)
 
it's a game. ban kratom and let the junk fly.

it would be interesting to see who the donors are sponsoring the possible ban.

I agree that it is complete garbage . Pharmacutical has something to do with it.

I see so many "addiction" commercials (multiple types) on TV.

Stick with herb!!

You want change, vote!

I don't know if you are the one saying this or the adds say that, but I've smoked plenty of weed and while I like it (used to LOVE it more than now), I don't think it holds a candle to Kratom.

Too bad as if Kratom was as non-addictive as weed I could use it much more.

For me, I don't feel socially comfortable going around doing all sorts of stuff in public while high after smoking weed, and people can tell I'm high, and I get self conscious etc.

Kratom is the opposite: no one can tell I'm on, hell, sometimes I even forget I'm on it, it improves my performance in almost everything whether physical or mental (that's while I'm on it, the WD can mess me up unfortunately...) and it just makes life better.

But I always end up taking too much and getting physically dependent and need to stop for a while, then come back to it later.

I can tell that's happening now and probably in like a month I'm gonna have my friend watch my stash for me and mail me small amounts when I want it.

That way I won't be tempted by always having it there, but I still have access, so it's a good system (except my friend said the only way he'll do it is if he can take some whenever he wants hahaha...but that's th price to pay for the service I guess, and it beats having it there at all times with the temptation or quitting completely.

The idea that weed is always the best drug for anything is not something I agree with.
 
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